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Hollinger: Losing streak not really on Melo at all...
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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3/30/2011  1:40 PM
Don't blame Melo, New York -- blame yourselves.

You were the ones who built him up, not him. Since coming to New York, all he's done is exactly what he did in Denver. He scores in the mid-20s with middling efficiency, plays token defense, and helps on the boards. That's what he is. There is nothing disappointing or upsetting about it at all, except to the people who built him up as an antidote to LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.

All that stuff about his being a top-10 player, a superstar? Could we maybe try to get some evidence first? Let's start with the digits. Anthony's stats fully state, if not overstate, his value -- there's no hidden defensive value or other warm/fuzzy stuff to explore here. Nonetheless, he has never finished in the top 10 in the league in player efficiency rating. Not once. In 2009-10 he posted a career high in PER, and it placed him 13th, right in front of former Knicks immortal David Lee.

Giving up an arm and a leg for such a player never made sense, and we're seeing the results now. The Knicks were basically an average team before the Anthony trade -- 28-26, with an average scoring margin at almost exactly break-even (just 0.4 points per game on the plus side).

And after the Carmelo Anthony trade, they're still basically an average team. While the worst is over after the Knicks and three striped-shirted friends managed to beat Orlando on Monday to end a six-game losing streak, the big picture hasn't changed. Since the trade, New York is 8-12 with a plus-1 scoring margin, and it's come against a very representative schedule -- 10 home games and 10 road games, 10 winning teams and 10 losing teams. Fittingly, today's playoff odds project the Knicks to finish at a perfectly average 41-41.

It wasn't supposed to be like this. The Knicks heralded Anthony's arrival as their launchpad to contender status, bringing in a second star to pair with Amare Stoudemire. But a number of factors since have contributed to their disappointing record.

As I noted above, it doesn't appear Anthony has been the problem. He's putting up the same numbers he did in Denver, more or less, and has rediscovered the 3-point shot after essentially abandoning it over the first 50 games. His rebounds are down, but overall his PER as a Knick is virtually identical to his pretrade mark as a Nugget.

Instead, it's the other positions where New York has suffered. For starters, Stoudemire isn't playing like he did before the trade. In the 20 games with Anthony, he's averaging two points per game fewer while playing more minutes; he's also shooting a lower percentage, rebounding less and has had a glaring decline in blocked shots -- from 2.2 to 1.2 per game.

While Melo and Amare aren't great complements offensively, I'm not saying Stoudemire's recent decline can be pinned on Anthony. Stoudemire has complained of fatigue lately, after a heavy workload on his surgically repaired knees in the first half of the season, and to me he's looked dead-legged on several occasions. One example that stuck in my mind was the very first play of the Milwaukee game last week, when Stoudemire caught the ball near the baseline and went for one of his patented dives to the basket. But instead of dunking, he barely got to rim level and tried to lay it in; Andrew Bogut flicked it aside easily.

There are other, secondary issues involving other players that are unrelated to the Melo trade as well. Most notably, Landry Fields' game has deserted him of late and he was recently replaced in the starting lineup. Also, the Knicks' bizarre insistence on getting Jared Jeffries and his 29.9 percent shooting into the lineup has been a drag on their offensive numbers.

And then there's the defense. Anthony has never been renowned as a defensive stopper, but the player he replaced (Danilo Gallinari) wasn't exactly vying for all-defense honors, either. Nonetheless, New York's defensive efficiency has plummeted to 108.9 since the trade, which is very nearly the worst mark in the league -- even though five of the Bockers' 20 games after the trade came against the league's two worst offensive teams, Cleveland and Milwaukee.

Of course, it wasn't just Anthony who was replaced, and that's where we get to the real problem with New York. They'll play a little better than they are now if Stoudemire regains his legs and Fields recovers, but not dramatically so.

Unfortunately, to really use the Melo trade as a pole vault to contending, the Knicks need Wilson Chandler and Raymond Felton.

Oops.

Felton's ability to stop the ball at the point of attack stands in stark contrast to Chauncey Billups' glaring inability to do so, while Chandler's mobility and ability to cover two positions similarly made up for some of New York's other defensive shortcomings. It's no accident that the Nuggets' defense has improved dramatically since the trade; while there are other factors, too, adding those two in place of Billups and Anthony has been a huge plus.

Of course, Felton and Chandler -- along with Gallinari and a whole crate full of other goodies -- were sent out to acquire Anthony. They had to lose Chandler to acquire Anthony, and that swap on its own would have engendered a fairly massive improvement for the Knicks.

But this is where we get to the same vicious cycle that has plagued the Knicks throughout James Dolan's ownership. Ultimately, this is a franchise that cares a lot more about winning news conferences than it does about patiently building a winner, a wicked undercurrent that even Donnie Walsh was powerless to stop.

So Dolan wanted to get Anthony regardless of the cost, and that they did. Along the way they convinced themselves Melo was a top-10 player when there isn't a shred of evidence to support that contention. Basically, it was the Herschel Walker trade, but for basketball. If this trade ends up building a contender, it will be in Denver, not New York.

The bizarre part is that the Knicks somehow convinced themselves Anthony was the only marquee player available, despite the undeniable lure of the New York market -- a fact embarrassingly proved false when the Nets acquired Deron Williams for far less just a day later.

Now New York is left with a stripped-down roster that has two stars, a point guard aging before our eyes, and not a whole lot else. And although Anthony is good enough that having him and Billups is still slightly better than having Felton, Gallinari, Chandler and Timofey Mozgov, the opportunity cost of this acquisition was enormous -- the Knicks basically can't make any other moves involving a first-round pick for the next half-decade, and have no other young assets to put into deals for any other players. They recklessly committed all their assets to a deal that only marginally improved the team, much as they did nearly a decade earlier with the Stephon Marbury trade. While talk of a third star joining up looms in the background, the Knicks' cap situation and lack of trade assets makes it an unlikely scenario, as our Chad Ford recently detailed.

So the Knicks are an average team, or at best a slightly above-average one, and are likely to continue in that orbit until Stoudemire's knees give out. Melo will be blamed for this, but it's not his fault. The Knicks made a superstar trade for a player they should have known darn well wasn't a superstar, and denuded the roster in the process. As a result, they'll have trouble winning a single playoff series, either this year or in future ones.

But at least they won the news conference. In Dolan's world, the rest is secondary.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
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fishmike
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3/30/2011  2:42 PM
great... I was blaming Melo all along, but its really VMart, jzhustla, PMS and Anubis I should blame!

Its funny. You say things like what are in this article and your a hater. Cant tell you how many times I said the same stuff... that Melo is good but not a superstar, but you cant have that discussion around here. People here have been blinded and sold and bought in on what this guy is. He's a really good scorer and not much else. He's a piece, and a complimentary piece, not a build around piece.

He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader.. and you really have to check yourself when you trade 4 rotation players, a pick and a prospect, give up your cap space and pay a $20mm a year salary for a who scores 25ppg on 20 shots a game while giving a poor effort on the other side of the ball.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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3/30/2011  2:54 PM
CashMoney
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3/30/2011  3:02 PM
Melo played really well against Orlando, on both sides of the ball. Is this going to be his norm from now on? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The only thing that is certain is that time will tell. The guy is still only 26 years old and has years of basketball ahead of him.
Blue & Orange 4 Life!
OldFan
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3/30/2011  3:11 PM
fishmike wrote:great... I was blaming Melo all along, but its really VMart, jzhustla, PMS and Anubis I should blame!

Its funny. You say things like what are in this article and your a hater. Cant tell you how many times I said the same stuff... that Melo is good but not a superstar, but you cant have that discussion around here. People here have been blinded and sold and bought in on what this guy is. He's a really good scorer and not much else. He's a piece, and a complimentary piece, not a build around piece.

He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader.. and you really have to check yourself when you trade 4 rotation players, a pick and a prospect, give up your cap space and pay a $20mm a year salary for a who scores 25ppg on 20 shots a game while giving a poor effort on the other side of the ball.

You weren't alone. If you look at discussions a few people made similar points before the trade. But the pro Melo guys had the owner on their side. I'm still hoping for the best. I think it's very unlikely that a tiger changes his stripes this late in his career but I think if Anthony wanted to make the effort he has the talent to be a good player on the defensive end. Not much else we can hope for - team has painted itself into a corner (Again )

Bonn1997
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3/30/2011  3:13 PM
CashMoney wrote:Melo played really well against Orlando, on both sides of the ball. Is this going to be his norm from now on? I don't know and neither does anyone else.

If that's your answer then that's not the kind of player you give up four rotation guys for. You need a sure thing not a question mark if you're giving up three very solid starters. You shouldn't be giving up three starters on the mere hope that the player you're getting back will do something he never consistently did before.
VCoug
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3/30/2011  3:20 PM
The problem with the article is that Hollinger is using raw statistics and basketball isn't baseball. Statistics are useful but aren't the be-all end-all the some people make them out to be. In the article, Hollinger also implied that David Lee was the 14th best player in the NBA last year; has anyone ever thought that about Lee? In basketball, if your arguments are only based on statistical analysis then you're missing a large part of the game.
Now the joy of my world is in Zion How beautiful if nothing more Than to wait at Zion's door I've never been in love like this before Now let me pray to keep you from The perils that will surely come
Nalod
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3/30/2011  3:26 PM
The proof will be in two years if our roster is complete to the level we can compete at a higher level.

Yeah, MSG starphuched us for the short run but our GM gotta get this done othewise its same old same old knicks again. Overpriced and underdelivered.........

knicks1248
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3/30/2011  3:29 PM
Whatever...if we didn't make the trade and stayed avg..people would have been killing walsh and dolan..l
ES
OasisBU
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3/30/2011  3:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2011  3:37 PM
fishmike wrote:
He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader..

First - I'm with you, we gave up way too much.

However, Melo is not VC, Agent Zero or T Mac - the guy won a championship in college and that alone sets him apart. Was it in the NBA? No, but Melo is a step above those guys in my opinion and at least knows what it's like to win on a big stage.

It is very easy to criticize the trade right now because the roster is terrible and we are losing. Add a couple complementary players and a winning streak and you will start seeing articles praising the trade.

Denver did make out like bandits but they already had a solid team. They basically have 2 lines of starters now but no focal point. Time will tell how that will work out.

Bottom line is the Knicks need more pieces. It's been proven that Melo isn't Lebron or Kobe and can't carry a team by himself but to his credit Stat is hurt, Billups has been stinking it up, Fields looks like a second rounder now, and the rest of the roster couldn't win a pickup game against the D league (harsh I know).

Patience is what we need. Everyone wants to panic because of our franchises history but Donnie is a smart guy and I am not worried about him not getting extended, he has delivered and will get renewed - I worry more that the fans are so fickle.

"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
Bonn1997
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3/30/2011  3:41 PM
OasisBU wrote:
fishmike wrote:
He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader..

First - I'm with you, we gave up way too much.

However, Melo is not VC, Agent Zero or T Mac - the guy won a championship in college and that alone sets him apart. Was it in the NBA? No, but Melo is a step above those guys in my opinion and at least knows what it's like to win on a big stage.

It is very easy to criticize the trade right now because the roster is terrible and we are losing. Add a couple complementary players and a winning streak and you will start seeing articles praising the trade.

Denver did make out like bandits but they already had a solid team. They basically have 2 lines of starters now but no focal point. Time will tell how that will work out.

Bottom line is the Knicks need more pieces. It's been proven that Melo isn't Lebron or Kobe and can't carry a team by himself but to his credit Stat is hurt, Billups has been stinking it up, Fields looks like a second rounder now, and the rest of the roster couldn't win a pickup game against the D league (harsh I know).

Patience is what we need. Everyone wants to panic because of our franchises history but Donnie is a smart guy and I am not worried about him not getting extended, he has delivered and will get renewed - I worry more that the fans are so fickle.


The critics of the trade have been steady, not fickle. Many of us we're against acquiring Carmelo from day 1 and wanted to do a genuine rebuild, which has never been done under Dolan.
arkrud
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3/30/2011  3:45 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Whatever...if we didn't make the trade and stayed avg..people would have been killing walsh and dolan..l

Dolan is a businessman.
He makes money on the team in NYC. And will make more shaping the team NYC wants it to be... entertaining.
The team is want the fans want it to be. Fantasy team.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
CashMoney
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3/30/2011  4:12 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
CashMoney wrote:Melo played really well against Orlando, on both sides of the ball. Is this going to be his norm from now on? I don't know and neither does anyone else.

If that's your answer then that's not the kind of player you give up four rotation guys for. You need a sure thing not a question mark if you're giving up three very solid starters. You shouldn't be giving up three starters on the mere hope that the player you're getting back will do something he never consistently did before.

Bottom line is that Melo is better than any player we gave up. We can always find players with potential but one of the best players in the league in the prime of his career does not come along very often. Heck, what are the chances we would be able to draft a player like Melo in the next 4 years? The trade was made for the future not for the NOW! DW has said it over and over again. I've been saying it since day 1. People want to make 8-12 into the next 4 years of basketball. Melo is the player the Knicks nkew they were getting and the player we all knew we were getting. A great scorer who can take the game over at anytime, a sold rebounder, ISO player who plays shoddy defense. I don't think anyone, including trade backers said adding Melo this year makes the Knicks a championship team. Watch the Knicks finish up at 6-2.

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holfresh
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3/30/2011  4:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/30/2011  4:14 PM
I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!
Nalod
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3/30/2011  4:24 PM
holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!

Going forward this is about the team that can be build around Amare and Melo.

Nobody can see the missing pieces yet.

This is not about right or wrong. The proof is on the court and this season the trade so fars sucks.

Can they turn it around? Sure. I think either versions of this years team could have won a first round "upset".

If In two years the Knicks can fill in the holes and go to the conf. finals then your a final four team and its a success. After that, who knows.

We like melo, just not the deal. And since we can't see beyond Chauns its abstract.

"manning up" is implying someone is right and one is wrong.

We win, we'll all be happy. Lose, then its just a matter of agreeing on whose to blame.

Sounds like fun?

misterearl
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3/30/2011  4:32 PM
We Are ALL Bystanders

The only person who needs to "man up" about the trade is the man who made it happen.

Can I get a witness?

once a knick always a knick
AnubisADL
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3/30/2011  4:36 PM
I dont take ESPN opinion pieces serious because ESPN is the ULTIMATE bandwagoner.
NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
Killa4luv
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3/30/2011  4:37 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
OasisBU wrote:
fishmike wrote:
He's Vince Carter or Gilbert Arenas or Tracy McGrady... he's an all star, because everyone loves a guy who scores 25 a game and can beat his man.

Melo is not a leader..

First - I'm with you, we gave up way too much.

However, Melo is not VC, Agent Zero or T Mac - the guy won a championship in college and that alone sets him apart. Was it in the NBA? No, but Melo is a step above those guys in my opinion and at least knows what it's like to win on a big stage.

It is very easy to criticize the trade right now because the roster is terrible and we are losing. Add a couple complementary players and a winning streak and you will start seeing articles praising the trade.

Denver did make out like bandits but they already had a solid team. They basically have 2 lines of starters now but no focal point. Time will tell how that will work out.

Bottom line is the Knicks need more pieces. It's been proven that Melo isn't Lebron or Kobe and can't carry a team by himself but to his credit Stat is hurt, Billups has been stinking it up, Fields looks like a second rounder now, and the rest of the roster couldn't win a pickup game against the D league (harsh I know).

Patience is what we need. Everyone wants to panic because of our franchises history but Donnie is a smart guy and I am not worried about him not getting extended, he has delivered and will get renewed - I worry more that the fans are so fickle.


The critics of the trade have been steady, not fickle. Many of us we're against acquiring Carmelo from day 1 and wanted to do a genuine rebuild, which has never been done under Dolan.

A genuine rebuild would require us to really suck, get a top 5 or top 3 pick and move forward from there with your young stars or star. Not young role players or even young solid players. We were not on track to do that ever. We got a #6 pick and got a good young player (Gallo) who is not a star and you cannot build a championship team around him. Brook Lopez would have been a better pick for a rebuild because he's 7 feet and he's a center.

Adding Amare to the mix of players wasn't going to get us anywhere. Adding a few solid defensive players to this current mix will net us some results, if Amare can come back alive.

markvmc
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3/30/2011  4:48 PM
VCoug wrote: In the article, Hollinger also implied that David Lee was the 14th best player in the NBA last year; has anyone ever thought that about Lee? In basketball, if your arguments are only based on statistical analysis then you're missing a large part of the game.

No, he implied that Lee was the 14th most efficient offensive player in basketball for that season.

fishmike
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3/30/2011  5:01 PM
holfresh wrote:I really hope when it's time to man up about this trade, the guys who are most vocal against it, steps up when it's time to step up...I like how Melo gets compared to DLee, Vince Carter, Arenas, and McGrady to prove a point...Where Melo's teams has done nothing but win and he led them there seven consecutive years...Denver was more than willing to put 20 mil per year on the table to keep this guy...Yet we think the pieces that has led us to 30 win seasons were the way to go...Can't Wait!!!
who said David Lee? Melo is a much more talented player than David Lee. As for Vince and TMac and Arenas... whats Melo done those guys havent done? I bet Vince has won a lot more playoff games than Melo. All star games? Check. Huge paychecks? Check. Lots of sportscenter dunks? Juicy stats? Check. Check. Tmac, Arenas (pre-injury) and Vince at various times were all bigtime all star players. Maybe even in the top 10 group or close (like Melo) and all will go as far as their supporting cast will take them. All have proven they are not good enough to really build a team around. Including Melo.

Yes holfresh I cant wait to man up either. Coming from the most vocal Isiah supporter all the way to the end its no wonder you LOVE this trade.

I'm sure when we have CP3, OK4 and and a couple great young players from the draft you will be talking about how we couldnt have done it without Melo. God forbid Denver advances and the Knicks do not. Oh man...

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Hollinger: Losing streak not really on Melo at all...

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