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Role Players And The Limits Of Star Power: Great Read
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misterearl
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2/23/2011  3:19 PM
Sometimes it requires someone to express what you feel. Not what you think.

"And now we're told that the next move is Chris Paul or Deron Williams, whose acquisition will complete our own "super team" to compete with the one in Miami. The logic goes that with those three in place it won't matter who the role players are.

But the role players always matter. They are more than just garnish; they're an integral part of the meal, kind of like booze. You admire the stars, but you love the role players. They're the ones you most connect with, the ones whose talent isn't so immense as to be untouchable, even though it actually is. Sure, Lakers fans love Kobe and Gasol, but ask the diehards what they think of Derek Fisher and you'll see in their faces the type of fan love that vastly outweighs a player's actual abilities. You'll also quickly really not like Derek Fisher.

Why'd that happen? Because we all want to believe that there's a certain amount of magic that goes into a championship season. Surely, merely writing checks can't attain something as special as sporting glory?

It's why the idea of these "super teams" seems somehow soulless. It feels like pretty soon we're all rooting for Western in Blue Chips, and we no longer even care if poor Tony passes TV, "It's a tough class, coach, you don't just watch the tube."

But a championship is supposed to be a process, about building something, about a special collection of players who magically come together in the name of lady victory. Sure, we know that's largely an illusion, but that illusion remains important.

Of course, all that being said, I'll probably miss my sweet, little Gallinari approximately as long as it takes Carmelo to put up his first 50 points. Then, I'll be telling people how hilarious it was that anyone was actually critical of the deal. He'll be joined by Paul in 2012, and when the championship banner is unveiled, please forget I ever said anything. I was really just kidding around."

Brian DiMenna is a contributor to SNY.tv

http://web.sny.tv/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110223&content_id=16713024&oid=36320&vkey=18

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fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:24 PM
One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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2/23/2011  3:31 PM
fishmike wrote:One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

add AR too.

And a good dash of luck. But yes, agreed all around.

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crzymdups
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2/23/2011  3:35 PM
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

add AR too.

And a good dash of luck. But yes, agreed all around.

Not to mention Kelenna Azubuike may eventually prove to be worth something.

As well as Corey Brewer and Shelden Williams.

Donnie is pretty good at this.

Chauncey Billups / Toney Douglas
Landry Fields / Bill Walker
Carmelo Anthony / Corey Brewer
Amare Stoudemire / Shawne Williams
Ronny Turiaf / Shelden Williams

does that look like a gutted team with no depth? or just a team with three stars and a solid cast of role players? it's not championship level, but it's pretty damn good.

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fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:37 PM
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

add AR too.

And a good dash of luck. But yes, agreed all around.

I was just going w/ rotation guys, but sure... to be fair AR didnt crack the rotation so I'm not giving DW props for that
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nixluva
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2/23/2011  3:38 PM
Donnie is a GM I trust to find those Solid skilled role players. He actually built the Pacers with those kinds of guys. He's better at that than finding the high upside guys. I don't think he's as comfortable with the Brandon Jennings types. Give him those guys that are low risk, what you see is what you get players and he's on his game. So IMO as long as we have him, he'll be able to find low cost talent to fill roles. Let's be honest, it's his thing.
fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:40 PM
crzymdups wrote:
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

add AR too.

And a good dash of luck. But yes, agreed all around.

Not to mention Kelenna Azubuike may eventually prove to be worth something.

As well as Corey Brewer and Shelden Williams.

Donnie is pretty good at this.

Chauncey Billups / Toney Douglas
Landry Fields / Bill Walker
Carmelo Anthony / Corey Brewer
Amare Stoudemire / Shawne Williams
Ronny Turiaf / Shelden Williams

does that look like a gutted team with no depth? or just a team with three stars and a solid cast of role players? it's not championship level, but it's pretty damn good.

I am WAY more skeptical of that group. I see Brewer and Shledon Williams as very poor NBA players who have not lived up to their talent and billing. I great all new Knicks with a loving open mind.

Also we all know MDA takes a long time to trust guys and I expect to see a LOT of Douglas and Shawn Williams.

Im not going to kill that group yet but I'm not impressed for sure. Sheldon Williams has all the physical tools to be another Ben Wallace. Its been closer to John Wallace though..

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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2/23/2011  3:42 PM
Landry Fields For MVP

fishmike - of the Denver guys, none have any sex appeal after Billups. He is a Piston, a short term rental. Rentals rarely make an emotional connection. Billups needs to dive into the front row to convince the NY fans of his passion. Corey Brewer has skills but is a dreadful shooter. Anthony Carter is average. We have seen The Balkman's act before. Shelden Williams is, well, how do you say?... er, garbage.

Somewhere, there is a seven footer in the DLeague waiting to be signed.

It would be nice if 7' Jerome Jordan developed.

6'11 Jonas Valanciunas would bring back some of the international flava.

It is still a big man's game.

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crzymdups
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2/23/2011  3:43 PM
@fish, I agree about Shelden. I think he is a bust so far. My only hope is the MDA usually likes the guys Coach K likes, so maybe he can work him into something decent. Shelden did have some decent early season games for Denver this season when Kmart and Chris Andersen were out.

Corey Brewer on the other hand, I think could break out in the right role, playing with structure and some stars to take the pressure off him. He didn't work in Minnesota, but here, with a defined role of perimeter stopper and maybe shooter/slasher on offense... I think he could shine. Like, Ariza level shine. Nothing amazing, but very solid bench guy.

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crzymdups
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2/23/2011  3:47 PM
Basically, the Knicks downgraded the bench by taking off Wilson Chandler and replacing him with Corey Brewer.

The starting lineup you swapped out Felton, Gallo and Mozgov for Billups, Carmelo and Turiaf.

I don't see how we've downgraded the depth all that much. Mike used 8 guys most nights, sometimes 9.

The first guys off the bench will be: Toney, Shawne, Brewer, Bill Walker.

We've been playing small all year long. Mike likes to play small.

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martin
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2/23/2011  3:49 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:One of the things that softens the losses of these guys (at least for me) is what Walsh has done with very little:

5 of our rotation guys were brought in literally using nothing but Donnie's brain.

scrap heap FA signings: Mosgov, Shawn Williams
drafted players anyone could have had: Douglas, Fields
traded for a player leaving anyway: Turiaf

Thats pretty good for just filling out the roster. Can he duplicate that next offseason? Time will tell. I'm looking forward to it

add AR too.

And a good dash of luck. But yes, agreed all around.

I was just going w/ rotation guys, but sure... to be fair AR didnt crack the rotation so I'm not giving DW props for that

true, but he was key in the Curry maneuver, and so he was key to the trade IMHO

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fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:50 PM
crzymdups wrote:Basically, the Knicks downgraded the bench by taking off Wilson Chandler and replacing him with Corey Brewer.

The starting lineup you swapped out Felton, Gallo and Mozgov for Billups, Carmelo and Turiaf.

I don't see how we've downgraded the depth all that much. Mike used 8 guys most nights, sometimes 9.

The first guys off the bench will be: Toney, Shawne, Brewer, Bill Walker.

We've been playing small all year long. Mike likes to play small.

very fair
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:51 PM
misterearl wrote:Landry Fields For MVP

fishmike - of the Denver guys, none have any sex appeal after Billups. He is a Piston, a short term rental. Rentals rarely make an emotional connection. Billups needs to dive into the front row to convince the NY fans of his passion. Corey Brewer has skills but is a dreadful shooter. Anthony Carter is average. We have seen The Balkman's act before. Shelden Williams is, well, how do you say?... er, garbage.

Somewhere, there is a seven footer in the DLeague waiting to be signed.

It would be nice if 7' Jerome Jordan developed.

6'11 Jonas Valanciunas would bring back some of the international flava.

It is still a big man's game.

earl... rentals dont make an emotional connection? How long do you think Derek Harper was a Knick for? Look it up... I think you will be suprised.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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2/23/2011  3:53 PM
One other point - guys like Carmelo Anthony and Amar'e Stoudemire are going to make the guys playing around them look a lot better. They'll get them open shots and take a lot of pressure off them. Having star players allows your role players to be just that - role players.

Corey - your role is going to be hit some open shots, slash to the hoop, fill the lanes on the break, lockdown on D and grab some rebounds. You don't need to create, Chauncey, Melo and Amare will create. Be ready for a pass when you are open.

It makes life easier for guys with limited skill sets. Witness Shawne Williams.

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crzymdups
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2/23/2011  3:57 PM
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Landry Fields For MVP

fishmike - of the Denver guys, none have any sex appeal after Billups. He is a Piston, a short term rental. Rentals rarely make an emotional connection. Billups needs to dive into the front row to convince the NY fans of his passion. Corey Brewer has skills but is a dreadful shooter. Anthony Carter is average. We have seen The Balkman's act before. Shelden Williams is, well, how do you say?... er, garbage.

Somewhere, there is a seven footer in the DLeague waiting to be signed.

It would be nice if 7' Jerome Jordan developed.

6'11 Jonas Valanciunas would bring back some of the international flava.

It is still a big man's game.

earl... rentals dont make an emotional connection? How long do you think Derek Harper was a Knick for? Look it up... I think you will be suprised.

Ray the Rental (2yr contract) seemed to make an emotional connection. These men know it's a business. You get paid millions of dollars to perform every night, stay in shape and be ready for a trade.

I love the way Ray played here, don't get me wrong.

And, yeah, Harper was a Knick for what, 18 months?

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misterearl
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2/23/2011  3:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/23/2011  3:59 PM
fishmike - Billups needs to prove his heart isn't still in Denver.

Derek Harper was a warrior

Just win baby

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fishmike
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2/23/2011  3:59 PM
crzymdups wrote:
fishmike wrote:
misterearl wrote:Landry Fields For MVP

fishmike - of the Denver guys, none have any sex appeal after Billups. He is a Piston, a short term rental. Rentals rarely make an emotional connection. Billups needs to dive into the front row to convince the NY fans of his passion. Corey Brewer has skills but is a dreadful shooter. Anthony Carter is average. We have seen The Balkman's act before. Shelden Williams is, well, how do you say?... er, garbage.

Somewhere, there is a seven footer in the DLeague waiting to be signed.

It would be nice if 7' Jerome Jordan developed.

6'11 Jonas Valanciunas would bring back some of the international flava.

It is still a big man's game.

earl... rentals dont make an emotional connection? How long do you think Derek Harper was a Knick for? Look it up... I think you will be suprised.

Ray the Rental (2yr contract) seemed to make an emotional connection. These men know it's a business. You get paid millions of dollars to perform every night, stay in shape and be ready for a trade.

I love the way Ray played here, don't get me wrong.

And, yeah, Harper was a Knick for what, 18 months?

we traded for him at the deadline. He played 2 more seasons with us after that.

Lot of Harper in Billups game. Cant wait. So happy Billups is here and up for the challenge

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/23/2011  4:00 PM
misterearl wrote:fishmike - Billups needs to prove his heart isn't still in Denver.

Derek Harper was a warrior

Just win baby

if you made a list of the 10 toughest NBA players Billups makes it. dudes a horse
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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2/23/2011  4:00 PM
misterearl wrote:fishmike - Billups needs to prove his heart isn't still in Denver.

Derek Harper was a warrior

Just win baby

Derek Harper was a lifelong Mav who went back there after 2 years in NY. I believe he worked in their front office for a time.

Chauncey's not a warrior? That's completely unfair.

Both guys are warriors and we have no evidence to suggest Chauncey won't try his best here.

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misterearl
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2/23/2011  4:04 PM
Chauncey's not a warrior? That's completely unfair.

True.

Who said Chancey Billups was not a warrior?

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Role Players And The Limits Of Star Power: Great Read

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