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JrZyHuStLa
Posts: 25677 Alba Posts: 3 Joined: 1/5/2007 Member: #1241 |
1/9/2011 12:28 PM LAST EDITED: 1/9/2011 12:29 PM
There's good and bad points about this.
The good is that the Knicks finally have an identity and a face of the franchise after ten horrific years of losing and negativity. This is the most dynamic offensive force in the league, and they can beat anyone on any given night, that's been proven. We're definitely a 40+ win team, and possibly start winning games in the 50s for the next few years after making some key adjustments before the deadline/in the offseason. You have to credit D'antoni for the way this team executes on the offensive end. We also have a legitimate franchise player that has almost single handedly brought us back to this respectable path that we're on. Felton is also having a career year, and the rest of the guys know their role on this tight D'antoni rotation. The negative part is mostly over the long haul. This isn't a championship team, and even with another star it probably won't be. I'm thinking we'll be an Orlando Magic type of team. Very good team, just not capable of winning a championship. And this is where D'antoni's achilles heel comes into play. The furthest he went with his style is to the WCF with a top 10 point guard of all time and Amar'e. Generally, this system is just not built for a championship pedigree type of team imho. |
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BlueSeats
Posts: 27272 Alba Posts: 41 Joined: 11/6/2005 Member: #1024 |
1/9/2011 12:30 PM LAST EDITED: 1/9/2011 12:33 PM
He's good for now and I think he's netting us a whole that's more than the sum of our parts.
It leads to an interesting conundrum that I've alluded to elsewhere. D' get an inferior squad over-achieving, elevates expectations for their success, then takes the hit when they "only" get to the conference finals. I too am not convinced his style (and the roster it entails) can take it all the way, but at the same time I think we could presently be getting less from a defensive minded coach who (theoretically) could go all the way. It's tough to know how far to go in either direction, or when to make the switch, but right now I'm glad he's part of the resurgence of the Knicks and the FA draw they are again. It's certainly not like he's holding this roster back. On the contrary. |
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knicks1248
Posts: 42059 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 2/3/2004 Member: #582 |
1/9/2011 12:41 PM
Killa4luv wrote:Part of the reason I took a hiatus from the knicks and the site is because I was so dissappointed in the choice of MDA as coach. I'm sorry to tell you dude, but todays game is the 3 ball, take a look at the league, your either slashing or shooting the 3 ball, and if you shoot it well you will win a lot of ball games. Ball movement and taking good shots, playing good d is what wins championships. It's not all about traditional methods any more. People keep talking about MDA couldn't do it with the suns, but ask youself was Amare playing like he is now with the Suns, Ask yourself is Nash 1/5 of a defender the felton is, ask yourself was anybody on that suns roster commited to playing defense as an individule goal. Amare talks about defense more then anything, or at any point in his career, Felton, TD, ronnie, chandler are defensive minded players. We give up a lot of points base on pace and volume, were not a defensive dream team, but were adaquate enough, whith such a potent offense.. A couple of bigs is a must No doubt, but it certainly doesn't have to be D howard, and I think you can incorprate a guy like K love, a nice back up pg, and roll with that. ES
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holfresh
Posts: 38679 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/14/2006 Member: #1081 |
1/9/2011 1:15 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Killa4luv wrote:Part of the reason I took a hiatus from the knicks and the site is because I was so dissappointed in the choice of MDA as coach. Playing good D, ball movement and taking good shots are traditional along with rebounding and knocking down free throws...They are the method that are still winning Championships today even as more teams gravitate to 3 ball...no defense, 3 ball hasn't won it yet... |
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
1/9/2011 1:57 PM
nixluva's gonna tear you a new one after he reads this.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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aienjell
Posts: 20064 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 12/9/2010 Member: #3330 USA |
1/9/2011 2:58 PM
BlueSeats wrote:He's good for now and I think he's netting us a whole that's more than the sum of our parts. Agreed, he gets the most out of his teams and it's exciting basketball, a little defense has gone a long way with this team. We are a COUPLE pieces away from being a contender, carmelo might not b needed but either way the future is bright. Let the Linsanity ensue!!!!!!
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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
1/9/2011 3:13 PM
Killa4luv wrote:Part of the reason I took a hiatus from the knicks and the site is because I was so dissappointed in the choice of MDA as coach. Jeeze, there's a new post like this every week and we keep on winning and improving. D'Antoni very well could have won the NBA title a couple of those years. What you're saying is akin to saying Adelman can't win with his system because the Kings couldn't get past the Lakers. Van Gundy runs an even more foreign system to the typical NBA champion system. So his system works because his guy is bigger than Amare? Let's say we pull off a trade to get Battier and Lowry from Houston for AR,Walker and Curry... just hypothetically. You get a backup guard off the bench who can defend and get to the line relentlessly while initiating offense and a supreme BBall IQ forward who can defend just about anyone and hit the trey. I'm not saying that's the trade, but something like that must be available for AR, Curry's expiring deal and some other prospect off our bench. You're telling me we can't win? Look, if the Heatles don't crumble under the pressure in the playoffs then we can't beat them. Period. Now, that said, we've seen Wade go down for long stretches, we've seen LeBron crumble, we've seen Bosh turn diva. Do you really want to take it to them with a conventional team for the next decade? I think MikeD certainly needs to respect defense more, but I see him catching on to that little by little and his ability to turn every QRich,Chandler,Williams,Johnson type of player he comes across into a star is incredible. This team needs a boost to seriously contend, but not a huge boost. The right couple of players, even if they aren't stars could do it. With D'Antoni's system and Stoudemire in place it seems much more important that the pieces around him are cohesive as opposed to being talented. We can win. Walsh isn't even a great GM, but I believe STAT is a transformational player and MikeD is certainly up to the task of competing with the Jacksons and VanGundy's of the world. Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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martin
Posts: 76261 Alba Posts: 108 Joined: 7/24/2001 Member: #2 USA |
1/9/2011 3:16 PM
I am going to take you up on this topic and thread, part by part if I may (I don't mean that in a negative way, just want to separate out the salient points).
Let's start here: Killa4luv wrote:Eventually i think we are going to have to get rid of him to become championship caliber, because i don't think he is going to change his offensive philosophy. He wants players that fit his system. I don't want no Boris Diaw type as my center, I want a real gotdamn center! I don't want Amare as my center, There is an underlying assumption about 1) a coach wanting players who fit his system and 2) MDA NOT wanting a real gotdamn center. First question is this: Was MDA provided with a real center when he was at PHO or did he just adjust to life without one? Perhaps Shaq but was he really that serviceable? CLE didn't really use Shaq as a primary weapon a year later either, so can we say that his overall effectiveness at 36 was way down? Who are these real centers that were acquired by PHO management that Mike ignored? Second hypothetical question, if MDA was given the likes of Dwight Howard, do you really think Mike would relegate him to 20 minutes a game or would he incorporate him into everything? All Howard does is rebound, defend and not shoot from outside. Do you think that the aforementioned 20 minutes of Dwight would really be employed? Is it such that a real center has no place within the system or MDA was never provided one? It is also incredible to me that Turiaf and Jared Jefferies, 2 inept offense players shooting-wise are constantly overlooked as big men who play within MDA's system quite fine. Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
1/9/2011 3:33 PM
He just wants guys who can space the floor as a prerequisite to their getting minutes.
If he had the team with Johnson, Nash, Marion, Diaw and Stoudemire today I think that team would be the favorite or very close to the favorite to win the NBA title this year. You can tell he's trying to assemble those type of players again. There isn't the effective size in the league now that there was then and it almost worked then. Are we really afraid of Dwight Howard and Gasol to the point where we think they're insurmountable forces in this league? Who else is dominant inside? Nobody. The future of the league is OKC in the West and Orlando and Miami in the East. Those three teams are extremely different. I don't think you can design a team to match up with all three I'll take my chances with STAT, a bunch of long wings who can shoot and a high-level point guard in MikeD's system. I don't think the contenders would want to see us in the playoffs just like Dallas didn't want to see Golden State a couple of years back. Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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Nalod
Posts: 71181 Alba Posts: 155 Joined: 12/24/2003 Member: #508 USA |
1/9/2011 3:34 PM
Killa, with all due respect, The NBA most successful have been those willing to evolve the game and push it forward.
Notice we do slow it down in the 4th quarter? MDA has also adjusted. But your entitled to your to your opinion. Do did Robert Sarver and Steve Kerr. Some thought we could never turn the franchise around with Dolan as owner. There is a season.....Turn...turn..Turn.... |
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martin
Posts: 76261 Alba Posts: 108 Joined: 7/24/2001 Member: #2 USA |
1/9/2011 3:54 PM
Killa4luv wrote:But, this 3 pt offense, while fun to watch, and while successful to this point, is not championship basketball. You know what teams over the past 5 years are constantly in the top 8 that take a high % of 3points across all their FGA (i.e. team takes X% of their shots from 3point land)? Very close to the % of 3pointers taken by MDA's PHO team? San Antonio Spurs and LA Lakers. And I stopped looking after 5 years cause it's hard to calculate. Dallas, Orlando also pop in and out of the top 5 from year to year. Now, MDA's teams do indeed take about 2-3 percentage points higher of attempted 3points per game than those teams, no doubt, but I think the variations can be muted with general roster makeup (does this team have good 3point shooters vs more midrange guys) explanations from year to year amongst other things. Would you care to revise? Cause Phil Jackson and Pop generally tend to disagree with you as evidenced by what their teams are actually doing. Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
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martin
Posts: 76261 Alba Posts: 108 Joined: 7/24/2001 Member: #2 USA |
1/9/2011 4:01 PM
Killa4luv wrote:No defense MDA's teams were always somewhere between 15-17 in defensive efficiency during his time there; middle of the pack, nothing special. 1) He constantly played Nash who is all-world at going under picks and non-suffocating man D. When 2 of your starting positions play below average D, do you call it playing bad D or do you call it playing as good as D as can be expected (or something like that). When Miami won their last championship, their offensive efficiency was rated #7 in the league and their D was rated #17 in the league (or something very close those ranks). Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
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JohnWallace44
Posts: 25119 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 6/14/2005 Member: #910 USA |
1/9/2011 4:22 PM
If we had a legit sub for Amare and he still didn't play defense... that would be a serious indictment. It seems like he's protecting himself from foul trouble by design just like Lee did last year and at times we trade baskets as a result. Its somewhat incredible that we seem fully in control at times while allowing the other team to score.
Certainly its gotten out of control at times like when Ilglauskas went off on us for Miami, but on the whole the strategy seems to be OK as a stop-gap until the trade deadline and a playmaker comes to us via trade. Alan Hahn:
Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
1/9/2011 4:31 PM
Well... I think it's less about the style of play and more to do about 1. Talent 2. execution and exerting your will on your opponent 3. a bit of luck. You need those things to win a title. The Lakers and the Celtic's have won titles with traditional teams. The kind of teams that we used to see in the 80's and 90's. The Heat are probably one of the favorite teams to win the title and they are actually not built in a very traditional way. Still when you have overwhelming talent it overrides any quirks you may have in your team make up.
Team make up has been less of a determining factor IMO. The fact is that title teams usually have some overwhelming talent. Having 2 or more top tier talents on your team is usually the common denominator. The league is too big now for teams to have a lot of top tier talents, which is what makes the Heat such a sickeningly extravagant team. We have to imagine that if we added another top tier talent it would also put this team in the same conversation and it would be less about the style of play but more about can we execute what we look to do and our stars stand up and get it done against another teams stars. How good then is the rest of the roster, cuz once the stars cancel each other then it's about what else you have on your team. That's why the Lakers and C's have been so good. It's not about Mike, it's about Donnie and what else he does to build this team. Mike does his job well, which is to maximize the talents of the guys he's got. The evidence is overwhelming that Mike gets his team to overachieve. Just a little more talent and I think MDA could get it done. |
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holfresh
Posts: 38679 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/14/2006 Member: #1081 |
1/9/2011 4:44 PM
nixluva wrote:Well... I think it's less about the style of play and more to do about 1. Talent 2. execution and exerting your will on your opponent 3. a bit of luck. You need those things to win a title. The Lakers and the Celtic's have won titles with traditional teams. The kind of teams that we used to see in the 80's and 90's. The Heat are probably one of the favorite teams to win the title and they are actually not built in a very traditional way. Still when you have overwhelming talent it overrides any quirks you may have in your team make up. The Heat is not built in a traditional sense does play in a traditional style with attention to defense...Spurs, Detroit, Bulls, and the Heat are others that have won playing a traditional style...It might be easier for you to point out who has won not playing a tradition style... |
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
1/9/2011 4:52 PM
nixluva wrote:Well... I think it's less about the style of play and more to do about 1. Talent 2. execution and exerting your will on your opponent 3. a bit of luck. You need those things to win a title. The Lakers and the Celtic's have won titles with traditional teams. The kind of teams that we used to see in the 80's and 90's. The Heat are probably one of the favorite teams to win the title and they are actually not built in a very traditional way. Still when you have overwhelming talent it overrides any quirks you may have in your team make up. lame... where's the sreaming, cursing & throwing a fit? After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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