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Options to fill our bench if we make a trade for Melo
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TMS
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12/24/2010  1:05 PM
I think u can realistically target any one of the names on this list using our exceptions this summer if we manage to swing a trade for Melo now:

SF's: (to replace Gallo or Wilson's role off the bench)
Shane Battier
Andrei Kirilenko
Jonas Jerebko
Josh McRoberts
Mike Dunleavy, Jr.
CJ Miles
Al Thornton
Josh Howard
Mikael Pietrus

PF/C's:
Troy Murphy
Spencer Hawes
Glen Davis
Reggie Evans
Kenyon Martin
Joel Pryzbilla
Carl Landry
Big Z
Nenad Krstic

PG's:
Goran Dragic
Leandro Barbosa
TJ Ford
Mario Chalmers
Shannon Brown

cheaper options: (split MLE or LLE)
Matt Barnes
Jared Dudley
Dante Cunningham
Brandan Wright
Louis Amundson
Jared Fishlips
Vlad Radmanovic
Chris Wilcox
Nick Collison
JJ Barea
Carlos Arroyo
Earl Watson

Bird Rights: (if he's not included in the Melo deal)
Wilson Chandler


this notion that we won't have any way to upgrade our bench if we make a trade for Melo is just plain false... on the contrary if we wait to sign Melo in free agency, we're looking at renouncing Wilson Chandler & having to dump Ronny Turiaf to clear enough cap space, & we lose any ability to sign any of the guys on this list because we won't have any exceptions at our disposal.

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Solace
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12/24/2010  1:13 PM
I would absolutely love to get Kirilenko. His stats have declined a bit, but he's still very good. I have my doubts that he would take an MLE bench role, however. I think he's got more in the tank.

Overall, good list. The only thing I don't get is the talk of giving up Chandler to make cap room for Melo. It looks to me like we have enough space by letting Curry, Azubuike, Shawne Williams expire. As long as we can get Chandler to accept a QO, I don't see a problem. I don't think Chandler will get an above MLE offer from another team, so in the worst case we match that. It still leaves something like $13 million under the cap and just forces us to drop Turiaf. Also, IMHO, Melo wants to come here bad enough that if there's a million less starting than max, he will take it. If he can't be flexible too, then maybe he shouldn't come here.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Moonangie
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12/24/2010  1:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  1:15 PM
You make a solid argument. Problem is, some of us don't want to part with Gallo OR Chandler, and Fields is just plain out of the question.

Since we would lose Chandler and Turiaf anyway, they're the only ones I would offer for Melo this season. Gallo and Fields would stay. Much as I like Chandler this year, Gallo is critical to MDA's offense. Without shooters like him, who also play D and draw fouls, the system is much less effective. Gallo gets to he line way more often than Wil, and he knocks down FTs at over 80%.

Melo is coming here to win, not just for the cheddah, so he damn well knows that he needs Gallo. Didn't he even say as much?

Solace wrote:I would absolutely love to get Kirilenko. His stats have declined a bit, but he's still very good. I have my doubts that he would take an MLE bench role, however. I think he's got more in the tank.

Overall, good list. The only thing I don't get is the talk of giving up Chandler to make cap room for Melo. It looks to me like we have enough space by letting Curry, Azubuike, Shawne Williams expire. As long as we can get Chandler to accept a QO, I don't see a problem. I don't think Chandler will get an above MLE offer from another team, so in the worst case we match that. It still leaves something like $13 million under the cap and just forces us to drop Turiaf. Also, IMHO, Melo wants to come here bad enough that if there's a million less starting than max, he will take it. If he can't be flexible too, then maybe he shouldn't come here.

Word. LeDouche and Mr. Overrated both took less than max. How could we respect Melo if he ain't up for the chip above all else?

Vmart
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12/24/2010  1:14 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  1:15 PM
That is why you make the Melo trade and not wait for FA. You still lose players anyway you look at it. Yes the Knicks can definitely upgrade the bench but I personally believe that the bench we have is good just Mike has no clue how to get the best out of the players. He tends to give up on player very quickly and render them useless to him when they are not.
Uptown
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12/24/2010  1:20 PM
Great post as usual, TMS. Just to reiterate, its best to trade for Melo during the season as opposed to waiting/hoping we sign him in the summer for the very reasons you just outlined. I've been saying this for a while now. Waiting for the summer to sign Melo will definitely inhibit us from filling out the rest of the roster unless, by some miracle, we are able to swing another trade. Get Melo here, then all of a sudden players like Peitrus and Pryzbilla can push us over the top as opposed to getting them without Melo which will keep us in the same position we are in now.

Another reason to trade for him now, is we want to avoid another Rahseed Wallace situaion. After being traded to ATL, Wallace was all but signed, sealed and delivered to us unti Ainge allowed the Hawks to move him to the Pistons. Sheed wins a ring and reups with the Pistons. I'm afraids for a team like the Mavericks, or Bulls or any team that is on the cusp snatching him up and allowing him to tatse some success. Like Wallace he might want to reup with 'Said' team.

TMS
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12/24/2010  1:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  1:27 PM
Solace wrote:As long as we can get Chandler to accept a QO, I don't see a problem. I don't think Chandler will get an above MLE offer from another team, so in the worst case we match that. It still leaves something like $13 million under the cap and just forces us to drop Turiaf. Also, IMHO, Melo wants to come here bad enough that if there's a million less starting than max, he will take it. If he can't be flexible too, then maybe he shouldn't come here.

Moonangie wrote:
Word. LeDouche and Mr. Overrated both took less than max. How could we respect Melo if he ain't up for the chip above all else?

Amare wasn't willing to accept anything less than the max & that was when we were still supposedly in the "running" to land Lebron... why should Melo be held to a different standard? he's a max player & wants to get paid... i wouldn't take him off our wish list because he's not willing to take less.

as for Wilson being willing to accept a QO, do u really think he will? he's coming off 2 consecutive promising seasons & he's gonna want to get paid too... this is a business too, no one wants to short change themselves of their own worth... u only get 1 chance at making the big bucks over your lifetime... after these guys pass their peak, they won't be able to land any more big contracts... if David Lee wasn't gonna take less to stay in NY i see no way Wilson would.

anyway, even if another team offered Wilson more than a QO & we match, that will eat into our cap space flexibility to sign Melo to a max deal... it's not possible... we are on the hook for at least $39M in guaranteed salary for next year not even counting Wilson or Turiaf's options... w/the salary cap likely to be paired down in the next CBA, you're looking at having only about ~$17M in cap space to sign Melo with this summer, & you don't get any exceptions in that case to sign Wilson to a contract extension & won't be able to accomodate Turiaf's salary either... both those guys will be gone, unless u figure out a way to dump Mozgov, AR, TD & Rautins w/o taking back any salary at all, pretty much impossible.

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SupremeCommander
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12/24/2010  1:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  1:31 PM
I would love Battier, Murphy, Pryzbilla, Landry, Barbosa, Dudley, Amundson, Cunningham, and Barrea

can't get em all, but would be happy with any of those

***

Collisson signed an extension with the Thunder... some ridiculous one that somehow bends the league rulesm if I remember right. So he's not an available name

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
TMS
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12/24/2010  1:32 PM
Moonangie wrote:You make a solid argument. Problem is, some of us don't want to part with Gallo OR Chandler, and Fields is just plain out of the question.

Since we would lose Chandler and Turiaf anyway, they're the only ones I would offer for Melo this season. Gallo and Fields would stay. Much as I like Chandler this year, Gallo is critical to MDA's offense. Without shooters like him, who also play D and draw fouls, the system is much less effective. Gallo gets to he line way more often than Wil, and he knocks down FTs at over 80%.

Melo is coming here to win, not just for the cheddah, so he damn well knows that he needs Gallo. Didn't he even say as much?

depends on what Melo decides to do about this whole NJ situation... if he refuses to go there then we have DEN over a barrel on this... there's no other way around it... would they refuse a package of Wilson, AR +filler/picks/cash for Melo with no other options available to them out of pure spite? maybe... but if they do, u can bet their fanbase is gonna be pissed about it... & their franchise would be no better off because of it.

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TMS
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12/24/2010  1:46 PM
martin, i'm hearing crickets on this one from you.
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TMS
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12/24/2010  2:11 PM
Uptown wrote:Great post as usual, TMS. Just to reiterate, its best to trade for Melo during the season as opposed to waiting/hoping we sign him in the summer for the very reasons you just outlined. I've been saying this for a while now. Waiting for the summer to sign Melo will definitely inhibit us from filling out the rest of the roster unless, by some miracle, we are able to swing another trade. Get Melo here, then all of a sudden players like Peitrus and Pryzbilla can push us over the top as opposed to getting them without Melo which will keep us in the same position we are in now.

Another reason to trade for him now, is we want to avoid another Rahseed Wallace situaion. After being traded to ATL, Wallace was all but signed, sealed and delivered to us unti Ainge allowed the Hawks to move him to the Pistons. Sheed wins a ring and reups with the Pistons. I'm afraids for a team like the Mavericks, or Bulls or any team that is on the cusp snatching him up and allowing him to tatse some success. Like Wallace he might want to reup with 'Said' team.

i'm not as worried about the Mavs getting Melo in a trade, because DEN trading their franchise stud to a divisional rival is unfathomable to me... Chicago or Orlando are the only other teams i'd even be worried about... would Chicago be willing to include Luol Deng & future picks for a Melo rental? possibly... i can certainly envision them winning a championship if they made that move, or at least being right up there with the Celtics, Spurs & Lakers as the top teams in the NBA... Orlando i'm not sure has the necessary assets for even a short term rental for Melo at this point... certainly none that trumps what the Knicks have to offer.

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scoshin
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12/24/2010  2:28 PM
I posted it in the other thread, but as long as Dalembert doesn't get traded from SAC this season, there's a good chance he can be had for the MLE as well. Since he won't be resigned by SAC, the only teams who can offer more than the MLE will be those with cap space -- which are always few and far between. Anyone have a list of teams with projected cap space for next summer? I'm sure there's a threat I'm not thinking about who'd pay Dalembert more than $6M (Houston maybe), but even then, he's not even the best center hitting the market if teams with cap space are looking to spend. (Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, etc.)
nixluva
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12/24/2010  2:33 PM
Yea we're still the top destination for Melo IMO, but it's still a tough negotiation between Den an NY. What if Donnie were to add more picks by using AZ's expiring too? If sweet the point with more picks like NJ has done, that could make Den happy enough to make the deal with us. NO?
TMS
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12/24/2010  2:38 PM
nixluva wrote:Yea we're still the top destination for Melo IMO, but it's still a tough negotiation between Den an NY. What if Donnie were to add more picks by using AZ's expiring too? If sweet the point with more picks like NJ has done, that could make Den happy enough to make the deal with us. NO?

we'd have to find a team looking to dump a longterm contract that equals AZ's yearly salary & desperate enough to include a 1st rounder to do it... w/this year's FA class i don't see that as a realistic possibility... last year teams were desperate to dump salary at any cost, not so sure it would be the same this year, especially if Melo is coming off the market via trade.

IMO our most realistic chance to add a pick is to simply buy one using cash from a team with a full roster load for next year that doesn't want to add another guaranteed salary to their cap, pretty much like we did with Toney Douglas.

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scoshin
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12/24/2010  2:40 PM
TMS wrote:
nixluva wrote:Yea we're still the top destination for Melo IMO, but it's still a tough negotiation between Den an NY. What if Donnie were to add more picks by using AZ's expiring too? If sweet the point with more picks like NJ has done, that could make Den happy enough to make the deal with us. NO?

we'd have to find a team looking to dump a longterm contract that equals AZ's yearly salary & desperate enough to include a 1st rounder to do it... w/this year's FA class i don't see that as a realistic possibility... last year teams were desperate to dump salary at any cost, not so sure it would be the same this year, especially if Melo is coming off the market via trade.

IMO our most realistic chance to add a pick is to simply buy one using cash from a team with a full roster load for next year that doesn't want to add another guaranteed salary to their cap, pretty much like we did with Toney Douglas.

The other option is to just give Denver AZ's expiring for Andersen or Harrington, both of whom could fill a bench role for us and add more depth, even if some of you are jaded by Harrington's past history. That way, we can keep a pick off the trade table.

TMS
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12/24/2010  2:52 PM
scoshin wrote:
TMS wrote:
nixluva wrote:Yea we're still the top destination for Melo IMO, but it's still a tough negotiation between Den an NY. What if Donnie were to add more picks by using AZ's expiring too? If sweet the point with more picks like NJ has done, that could make Den happy enough to make the deal with us. NO?

we'd have to find a team looking to dump a longterm contract that equals AZ's yearly salary & desperate enough to include a 1st rounder to do it... w/this year's FA class i don't see that as a realistic possibility... last year teams were desperate to dump salary at any cost, not so sure it would be the same this year, especially if Melo is coming off the market via trade.

IMO our most realistic chance to add a pick is to simply buy one using cash from a team with a full roster load for next year that doesn't want to add another guaranteed salary to their cap, pretty much like we did with Toney Douglas.

The other option is to just give Denver AZ's expiring for Andersen or Harrington, both of whom could fill a bench role for us and add more depth, even if some of you are jaded by Harrington's past history. That way, we can keep a pick off the trade table.

Birdman would be ideal but DEN loves him & he's making a tiny salary... i can definitely see them willing to dump Al's contract though... if it's to make a Melo trade possible i'd do it, but i'm sure MDA would be thrilled to have Al back.

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JrZyHuStLa
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12/24/2010  3:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  3:08 PM
It's good to see a thread about who we can get after we get melo instead of improving our bench and not getting melo.

Thanks for the rational thinking.

martin
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12/24/2010  3:30 PM
TMS wrote:martin, i'm hearing crickets on this one from you.

i missed this thread. What am I supposed to respond to? I don't think there was a notion that there weren't players who you could upgrade with. There are.

It's that there are too many positions to fill with just the MLE and LLE. I guess it all depends on what would be going out in a Melo deal and starts there.

Starting C, bench, backup PG.... all for MLE and LLE?

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TMS
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12/24/2010  3:45 PM
martin wrote:
TMS wrote:martin, i'm hearing crickets on this one from you.

i missed this thread. What am I supposed to respond to? I don't think there was a notion that there weren't players who you could upgrade with. There are.

It's that there are too many positions to fill with just the MLE and LLE. I guess it all depends on what would be going out in a Melo deal and starts there.

Starting C, bench, backup PG.... all for MLE and LLE?

starting 5:
Amare $18,217,705
Chandler $6,300,000 (Bird exception) or Gallo $4,190,182
Melo $18,500,000
Fields $788,872
Felton $7,560,000

bench:
Turiaf $4,360,000
Moz $3,343,896
Rautins $788,872
Williams $788,872
----------------------------
$60,648,217 w/Chandler / $58,538,399 w/Gallo

that leaves you with the MLE & LLE to sign 2 of the players on the above list... u can put together any # of different combinations here depending on how u wanna go about it... if Wilson goes in a Melo trade, then offer the MLE to a defensive minded utility guy like a Shane Battier, Pietrus, Jerebko, AK47 or split the MLE between 2 guys like Louis Amundson & Fishlips... or if Gallo is being dealt, then you can fill his shooting role by adding someone like Mike Dunleavy Jr., Dante Cunningham, Vlad Radmanovic or Troy Murphy.

or u can shore up your frontcourt depth instead & sign a bigbody like Hawes, Pryzbilla, Davis, Evans, KMart, Landry, Krstic... hell u can even add Shaq's name to the list if u really wanted to (tho not too sure how he'd fit in MDA's system).

with the LLE u have the option of signing a backup PG like Earl Watson, Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea, or go PG with your MLE like TJ Ford or Shannon Brown & offer the LLE to a defensive player like Fishlips

the point is, u have a ton of options if you make a deal for Melo... it's not the bare cupboad scenario that BRIGGS & yourself keep trying to paint.

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cheers
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12/24/2010  3:46 PM
i like tms options but like all bipolar knicks fans i am changing my mind on melo. in that, if we dont get melo by trade deadline. i would like to see if ny can sign chandler for $8mil a year.
TMS
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12/24/2010  4:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/24/2010  4:08 PM
cheers wrote:i like tms options but like all bipolar knicks fans i am changing my mind on melo. in that, if we dont get melo by trade deadline. i would like to see if ny can sign chandler for $8mil a year.

so basically you're saying you would rather sign Wilson to $8M this summer instead of Melo for the max... pretty much the same argument people made for David Lee over Amare, no?

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Options to fill our bench if we make a trade for Melo

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