1.) Fiscal responsibility. Maybe the biggest key to our failure as a franchise can be related to poor investments with players. Trading for overpaid veterans (Shandon Anderson/Howard Eisley), overpaying veterans ourselves (Jerome James) and extending contracts of past their prime players (Allan Houston) had punctuated this period of reckless spending. Its clear that it doesn't matter how much money you spend but rather how you spend it. The San Antonio Spurs for example have consistently hovered around the cap ($55-$65 million) and yet have 4 championships in this past decade. During that same span of time, the Knicks payroll figure has been roughly twice that and has been a perennial lottery team ($100 million).

2.) Target "stars" and "stars to be." This ties a little into "fiscal responsibility." We have one of the most attractive venues in the league to players. If we had our money game planned a little better, we could bring in a few of them periodically(see Amar'e and, very soon, Melo). I would prefer for us to start targeting specific free agent classes and have our contracts expire at an appropriate time to potentially sign them. As much as I like Amar'e (Melo) and Raymond Felton, I'd pay close attention to developments with John Wall in Washington, OJ Mayo in Memphis and Blake Griffin in LA. I'd like for us to have most of our contracts (Amar'e, Melo and the lot included) expire by the time these group of guys become free agents, to potentially woe them; and then continue this trend with others in the future.

3.) A greater emphasis of keeping, developing and obtaining draft picks. Had we been placing greater emphasis on the draft, I don't think we would have experienced nearly as deep a lull period as we did. Young players help to transition into a new era. Look at the Indiana Pacers of the 90's. They managed to rebuild within a season or two by simply turning over the reigns to their younger guys (Jamal Tinsley, Johnathan Bender, Al Harrington, Austin Croshere and Jeff Foster), while trading veterans for more young players/draft picks (Jermaine O'neal, Ron Artest, Brad Miller, etc.). We can't afford to package these picks at cheap attempts to remain competitive, like what has been in the past. The Knicks have given up 4 lottery picks in the past 8 drafts before having had the opportunity to draft them/play them. The list includes: (1) Nene Halario drafted 8th in the 2002 draft; (2) LaMarcus Aldridge drafted 2nd in the 2006 draft; (3) Joakim Noah drafted 9th in the 2007 draft; (4) and Gordon Hayward drafted 9th in the 2010 draft. Three of the first four players listed are currently all-stars/all-star caliber players. In other drafts, we've missed the opportunity to draft future stars Danny Granger, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin, Monta Ellis and Rajon Rondo due to poor scouting/vision.

4.) Have a more definitive date to retool/rebuild. It takes a saavy vet to know when its time to fold up shop and start over. If your not competing for a title, why continue to spin the wheels? We did that after dealing Patrick Ewing and saw the consequences of not using the opportunity to rebuild. If we haven't won a title/are competing for a title by the time Amar'e is 32 years old, I think that that would be the appropriate time to begin to rebuild.

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

Totally agree especially the responsibility on our front office to surround Amare with the proper talent to take full advantage of the opportunities we have to be an elite team in the east. Its not a bad thing to amass young prospects and draft picks and trade them for an established star player who you are almost certain will lift the team to new heights. Especially when the star player (Melo) is being paired with another star player (Amare). This is a far cry from trading prospects and picks for a player like Marbury who was a good player but was being added as the only piece to a franchise and would have to lift the team out of obscurity by himself. The Marbury deal would have made more sense if you were adding him to an already established allstar like Ewing, etc. But with Amare here, this is when you spend, and go over the cap if need be to add the right pieces to make us a contender.

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

Totally agree especially the responsibility on our front office to surround Amare with the proper talent to take full advantage of the opportunities we have to be an elite team in the east. Its not a bad thing to amass young prospects and draft picks and trade them for an established star player who you are almost certain will lift the team to new heights. Especially when the star player (Melo) is being paired with another star player (Amare). This is a far cry from trading prospects and picks for a player like Marbury who was a good player but was being added as the only piece to a franchise and would have to lift the team out of obscurity by himself. The Marbury deal would have made more sense if you were adding him to an already established allstar like Ewing, etc. But with Amare here, this is when you spend, and go over the cap if need be to add the right pieces to make us a contender.

Marbury was a very good player talentwise, but his mental makeup was all wrong for NYC, as we all became distinctly aware after he got here... plus he already had a reputation for destroying team chemistry & being all about himself everywhere he'd played in the past... surprisingly, he started out pretty well in NY while playing good, unselfish team ball & actually getting along w/Keith Van Horn... seemed like it might actually work out w/him, but then Isiah made the Tim Thomas/Nazr trade & got rid of Van Horn & Doleac, & Marbury got the sense this was more about him than the team... then the Eddy Curry & Zach Randolph trades to compound matters by 100 fold & you know the rest.

i don't see how a player like Carmelo Anthony even compares to any of those guys in terms of risk & value as an NBA star... Melo is legit... he's proven that he can carry a team to the playoffs for 7 consecutive seasons ever since he was a rookie, & he carried his NCAA team to a national title... this guy is a proven winner, nothing like Marbury, Curry or Zach Randolph... if there ever was a time that trading future talent for someone makes sense, it's for a player of this calibre.

of course the pricetag is what concerns everyone, & it should... no one likes the thought of giving away promising young talent like Gallo, Wilson or Fields... everyone likes to see young players grow & develop on the team that drafted them... all this is perfectly understandable... but you can't have sentimental attachments to players when there are better options available... IMO, as fans we should be thinking about the overall good of the team first, & sentimental attachments to certain players second... this is why i always felt we needed to trade David Lee even though he was 1 of my favorite players on the team since we drafted him... it was obvious he could only take us so far... we needed an upgrade, & Amare has provided that in spades... i think the same thing can happen if we get Melo to NYC... that doesn't mean we have to give up all 3 of our young guys to get Melo either... i don't think there's a single person on these forums that advocates giving up all that given Melo's obvious desire to play for us next year... i think DW is gonna play this the right way & he'll end up getting Melo, either in an equitable trade before the deadline, or via free agency... & if not, then he'll have other suitable plan B options to pursue... i don't think he has any intention whatsoever of gutting our roster to get any single player.

Melo2NYK wrote:

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

You actually make an excellent point. New York is such a pressure-cooker that it makes it especially difficult for rookies to mature, which lessens the value of having a pick in comparison to signing a star. I definitely prefer the "star" alternative as a result. This, however, isn't to say that we should not actively seek draft picks. Teams like the Spurs have done a hell of a job finding the types of role players that grow into key roles on their team that were far from lottery picks (Tony Parker drafted 28th, Manu Ginobli drafted 53rd, Luis Scola drafted 56th, Dajuan Bliar drafted 37th, George Hill drafted 26th and the list goes on and on and on). I'd like to see the Knicks potentially drafting these types of players that if all else falls, could fill a role and allow us to have some type of continuity shifting from one era to another when that time comes.

agreed about SA's draft picks other than Duncan, they've done an excellent job amassing good young talent to surround him with using the draft... i think the Knicks are on the right path in that regard with guys like Fields, Wilson, Gallo, AR & Douglas too, but i realize that we're still at least a major piece away from being a real contender for a title... adding a role playing C & a backup PG is simply not gonna cut it but a lot of guys around here seem to think that's all we need... i disagree... i think we need something major, & right now Melo seems to be the best option to fill that need... if we have to give up a couple of those young pieces to get him here, i think it's a move we have to make... we simply can't expect to build a champion around Amare unless we're willing to take the next step & bring in another star for him to play with

Melo2NYK wrote:

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

You actually make an excellent point. New York is such a pressure-cooker that it makes it especially difficult for rookies to mature, which lessens the value of having a pick in comparison to signing a star. I definitely prefer the "star" alternative as a result. This, however, isn't to say that we should not actively seek draft picks. Teams like the Spurs have done a hell of a job finding the types of role players that grow into key roles on their team that were far from lottery picks (Tony Parker drafted 28th, Manu Ginobli drafted 53rd, Luis Scola drafted 56th, Dajuan Bliar drafted 37th, George Hill drafted 26th and the list goes on and on and on). I'd like to see the Knicks potentially drafting these types of players that if all else falls, could fill a role and allow us to have some type of continuity shifting from one era to another when that time comes.

And to add to this response, I don’t mind giving up draft picks if they are for a sure fire star and if we have the flexibility to build around him properly. What I don’t want is another situation where we are giving up draft picks on gambles (Antonio McDyess; Eddy Curry) in an attempt to augment an already deficient core (Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell; Stephon Marbury). That foolishness resulted in the cold reality of being a terrible team, without any draft picks to improve. As much as I still believe Isiah was far from being as bad a GM as most would presume, the guy could have built a friggin’ contender had he simply kept his draft picks. In all seriousness, this could have been our starting lineup:

Deron Williams (PG)…drafted 3rd overall in 2005. We had the 8th pick in that draft but would have been worse had we not traded for Marbury the year before and consequently would have had a higher pick.
Kevin Martin (SG)…drafted 26th in 2004. The Knicks gave up their pick at 16 in the Marbury deal
Trevor Ariza (SF)…drafted 44th in 2004. Traded away in the Steve Francis deal
LaMarcus Aldridge (PF)…drafted 2nd in 2006. Lost the pick in the Eddy Curry deal
Joakim Noah (C)…drafted 9th in 2007. Lost the pick again in the Eddy Curry deal.

knicks1248 wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

You actually make an excellent point. New York is such a pressure-cooker that it makes it especially difficult for rookies to mature, which lessens the value of having a pick in comparison to signing a star. I definitely prefer the "star" alternative as a result. This, however, isn't to say that we should not actively seek draft picks. Teams like the Spurs have done a hell of a job finding the types of role players that grow into key roles on their team that were far from lottery picks (Tony Parker drafted 28th, Manu Ginobli drafted 53rd, Luis Scola drafted 56th, Dajuan Bliar drafted 37th, George Hill drafted 26th and the list goes on and on and on). I'd like to see the Knicks potentially drafting these types of players that if all else falls, could fill a role and allow us to have some type of continuity shifting from one era to another when that time comes.

And to add to this response, I don’t mind giving up draft picks if they are for a sure fire star and if we have the flexibility to build around him properly. What I don’t want is another situation where we are giving up draft picks on gambles (Antonio McDyess; Eddy Curry) in an attempt to augment an already deficient core (Allan Houston, Latrell Sprewell; Stephon Marbury). That foolishness resulted in the cold reality of being a terrible team, without any draft picks to improve. As much as I still believe Isiah was far from being as bad a GM as most would presume, the guy could have built a friggin’ contender had he simply kept his draft picks. In all seriousness, this could have been our starting lineup:

Deron Williams (PG)…drafted 3rd overall in 2005. We had the 8th pick in that draft but would have been worse had we not traded for Marbury the year before and consequently would have had a higher pick.
Kevin Martin (SG)…drafted 26th in 2004. The Knicks gave up their pick at 16 in the Marbury deal
Trevor Ariza (SF)…drafted 44th in 2004. Traded away in the Steve Francis deal
LaMarcus Aldridge (PF)…drafted 2nd in 2006. Lost the pick in the Eddy Curry deal
Joakim Noah (C)…drafted 9th in 2007. Lost the pick again in the Eddy Curry deal.

Aside from Deron, and ariza who was traded twice before he lucked up on a establish vetern title contender, being coach by a 10x cnampionship coach, and playing next to the best player on the planet. deron is very good but he just keeps the jazz competitive .

Those guys are good, but will probably get traded..my point is, it doesn't matter when you draft, it's who you draft, and developing young players with no leadership is a disaster waiting, and years of lottery picks

knicks1248 wrote:

Melo2NYK wrote:

TMS wrote:on #'s 1, 2 & 4, I agree w/u on 100%... but in order to target stars & future stars, it's usually necessary to give up your draft picks, thereby making #3 on your list harder to do... unless you're talking about very high lottery picks, with which we have not had much luck with.

for a big market team like ours, you can better afford to go the targetting stars route at the risk of sacrificing future picks... smaller market teams like the Spurs can't afford to spend in the same manner, so they're more conservative in their approach to building their teams... let's face it, if they hadn't been lucky enough to land Tim Duncan in the draft, they don't win squat... you can make a case for both methods of rebuilding a franchise & you wouldn't be wrong w/either... history has shown both methods have succeeded in winning championships... the Celtics amassed young assets & picks & traded them away for established star players & won a championship because of it too... the Miami Heat are attempting to win using the free agency route... my feeling is that the Knicks are looking to get more established star players to build around rather than banking their future on potential guys at this point... it's a reach to bank your entire future on landing a once in a generation type talent like Tim Duncan in the draft... sure it's always good to focus on recognizing talent in the draft, but right now the fans are ready & the city is ready for the team to be great again... i don't think another 2-3 years of waiting is in the plans anymore... we have our franchise star in Amare, we owe it to our franchise now to make the moves to surround him with great talent so we can make a legitimate run at a title.

You actually make an excellent point. New York is such a pressure-cooker that it makes it especially difficult for rookies to mature, which lessens the value of having a pick in comparison to signing a star. I definitely prefer the "star" alternative as a result. This, however, isn't to say that we should not actively seek draft picks. Teams like the Spurs have done a hell of a job finding the types of role players that grow into key roles on their team that were far from lottery picks (Tony Parker drafted 28th, Manu Ginobli drafted 53rd, Luis Scola drafted 56th, Dajuan Bliar drafted 37th, George Hill drafted 26th and the list goes on and on and on). I'd like to see the Knicks potentially drafting these types of players that if all else falls, could fill a role and allow us to have some type of continuity shifting from one era to another when that time comes.

Last time i check we have about 5 1st rounders on this roster now, we have a draft picks of #1 #6, #5, #14 #24...ect...we are very young team now, and will probably trade away a couple of these guy's to get some real vet star power..no matter how you look at it, we will never be satisfied with developing young players cause in some cases it takes to long.

Teams like SA have a lot of veterens already in place, so bringing along a promising rookie(like neals) is easy. But when you have an entire young team like say....Sac..it's going to be more groing pains, less productivity out of a guy like Tyreke evens, casue there's no help to take away the attention teams will have on him..

People alway want to talk about developing young players, like everyone comes out as smart as fields, they don't and you just end up trading the same pick..

We have no 1st overall pick on our roster; and the 5th overall pick (Felton) and 14th overall pick (Randolph) were both signed/traded for. The 6th overall pick (Gallo) had a better player behind him in the draft (Eric Gordon), making the #23rd pick (Chandler) the only savvy pick of his draft on our team and even he had a better player behind him (Marc Gasol). I do agree with the rest of what you're saying though.

martin wrote:Gallo=Chase Budinger?

What?!@?!?! Gallo = Young Dirk/ Petrovic.

orangeblobman wrote:

martin wrote:Gallo=Chase Budinger?

What?!@?!?! Gallo = Young Dirk/ Petrovic.

Clearly you haven't seen a young Dirk Nowitzki or Drazen Petrovic. By Dirk's 3rd year in the league, he was already the best player on his team and a 21ppg, 9rpg machine. Gallo has a hard time carrying a basketball team for more than a quarter.