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nyk4ever
Posts: 41010 Alba Posts: 12 Joined: 1/12/2005 Member: #848 USA |
12/10/2010 2:12 PM
a poll would have been sufficient?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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Vmart
Posts: 31800 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 5/23/2002 Member: #247 USA |
12/10/2010 2:18 PM
I would take Melo on the Knicks over Gallo every day of the week.
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BlueSeats
Posts: 27272 Alba Posts: 41 Joined: 11/6/2005 Member: #1024 |
12/10/2010 2:21 PM
Without getting into stats, I'd like to see Melo here and I think he'd make us a better playoff team. Then we'd have a solid 'big 3'. And I think Melo could be just as rejuvinated in NY as Felton.
But of course, one would need to see the trade packaged involved to really judge. |
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earthmansurfer
Posts: 24005 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/26/2005 Member: #858 Germany |
12/10/2010 2:22 PM
The thing that is chancy right now, is that the team is going around Stat. If he get's into foul trouble or has to sit for a few games, who is going to take over. That is one place where having Melo would help.
Right now, I vote wait till February. Lets see how the next month goes. The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
12/10/2010 2:30 PM
Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. The only thing that Melo gives us is a guy that can breakdown a defense in cruchtime. In terms of shooting, rebounding, passing and defense, he won't substantially improve the team in any way. It's only in the sense that you have a player with such great individual scoring ability that he can take his man at any moment and get his shot off. We don't have a player like that, so we must rely on perfectly executed plays. This gets harder to do when you face the best defensive teams. They will make it harder to execute what you want to do. So in the end we would benefit from having a guy that can create his own shot against a great defense. He's not efficient, but he's great at creating his own shot no matter who is defending him. That has a value come playoff time. In the middle of the game I actually think he hurts you a bit with his inefficient play, however, you get him for his late game heroics.
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rvwink
Posts: 20412 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/3/2006 Member: #1145 |
12/10/2010 3:11 PM
There have clearly been huge levels of efficiency generated by bringing Amare to the Knicks. Everyone that said that David Lee at 10 Million was a better deal than Amare at 17 Million has been proven wrong. Amare has brought a confidence to the Knicks that simply didn't exist last year. I was watching the end of the Raptures game. Bargnani had just made his last dagger 3 with little time left. With the score tied, about two Raptures raised their arms to celebrate the shot. If you looked at their faces though, it was clear Amare had convinced them, that the likelihood was that the Knicks would score again. They looked like they knew they were destined to lose a 3rd straight time. (The Knicks bench is so much fun to watch with Turiaf in the house.)
So what happens when you get 2 superstars? Is it twice as good? No! The Knicks already have the confidence. Melo's immediate contribution will be to reduce the number of shots available to the 2 remaining starters. People talk about Melo's ability to get off a shot against anyone. The Knicks can get off a shot because of the way they space the floor and because Amare can hit both outside and inside shots relentlessly. Amare shoots .531. Felton shoots 471. If you adjust for his excellent 3 point shooting and the added points, he is also above 500 percent in his actual production. It would be dumb to cut Felton back to increase Melo's shots at a much lower percentage of productivity. So please tell me what else specifically does Melo bring, that makes him worth the financial and talent sacrifices his arrival demands? |
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rvwink
Posts: 20412 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/3/2006 Member: #1145 |
12/10/2010 4:22 PM
Heres a Times article I just found by Googling Effective Field Goal Percentage.
Justin Kubatko is the creator of Basketball-Reference.com, an online basketball encyclopedia. He is also a statistical consultant for the Trail Blazers. For most franchises, a 14-9 start would not be cause for celebration, but the Knicks are not most franchises. The Knicks have not made the N.B.A. playoffs since 2004, and they have not finished a season with a winning record since 2000-1. In fact, that 2000-1 season was the last time the Knicks were five games over .500 after their first 23 games. What has made the difference for New York this season? Because the Knicks play at such a fast pace, judging their offense or defense by points scored or points allowed per game can be misleading. A better way to evaluate a team’s offense or defense is to look at points scored or points allowed per possession. For example, this season the Knicks are allowing 106.3 points per game, a figure that puts them 26th in the N.B.A. When their pace is accounted for, the Knicks rank 20th on defense, allowing 1.091 points per possession. While this may not be something to brag about, it does suggest that the Knicks are closer to an average defense than their points allowed per game would suggest. While New York has improved on defense (they were 27th last season in points allowed per possession), it is on offense where the Knicks have made the most progress, jumping from 17th to 4th in points scored per possession. This improvement is best explained by looking at two statistics: effective field goal percentage and free throw rate. Effective field goal percentage is an adjusted field goal percentage that takes into account the extra point provided by a 3-pointer. Last season the Knicks were an above-average shooting team, finishing ninth in the N.B.A. with an effective field goal percentage of 50.9 percent. This season, though, the Knicks are even more efficient from the floor, with an effective field goal percentage of 52.1 percent, good for fourth in the league. One the biggest surprises from the floor has been the free agent Raymond Felton. Felton never had an above-average effective field goal percentage in two seasons with the Bobcats, but this season he is on pace for a career-best 53.7 percent. The offensive area where the Knicks have shown the most improvement is free throw efficiency, as measured by free throw rate. Free throw rate is simply free throws made per field goal attempt. It is a measure of both how often a team gets to the line and how often it makes them. Last season the Knicks were one of the poorest teams in the league by this measure, with the 3rd-worst free throw rate in the N.B.A. This season the Knicks are not only shooting more free throws, but they are also converting them at a higher rate; they currently have the league’s fifth-best free throw rate. One player who has made great strides in this area is Danilo Gallinari. Gallinari’s minutes per game are down slightly from last season, but his free throw attempts per game have increased from 3.8 to 5.5, and his free throw percentage has jumped from 81.8 percent to 90.6 percent. The Knicks’ minor improvement on defense and major improvement on offense have led them to their best start in ten years. But before Knicks fans start dreaming of a deep run into the playoffs, they should consider one sobering thought: the Knicks have played the league’s second-easiest schedule so far this season. From here on, they play the league’s second-toughest schedule. If the Knicks are going to break their playoff drought, they will need to retain the gains they have made on both ends of the floor. Justin Kubatko is the creator of Basketball-Reference.com, an online basketball encyclopedia. He is also a statistical consultant for the Trail Blazers. Raymond Felton, shooting the game winning shot on Wednesday over the Raptors’ Jose Calderon, has been an important ingredient in the Knicks’ success. For most franchises, a 14-9 start would not be cause for celebration, but the Knicks are not most franchises. The Knicks have not made the N.B.A. playoffs since 2004, and they have not finished a season with a winning record since 2000-1. In fact, that 2000-1 season was the last time the Knicks were five games over .500 after their first 23 games. What has made the difference for New York this season? Because the Knicks play at such a fast pace, judging their offense or defense by points scored or points allowed per game can be misleading. A better way to evaluate a team’s offense or defense is to look at points scored or points allowed per possession. For example, this season the Knicks are allowing 106.3 points per game, a figure that puts them 26th in the N.B.A. When their pace is accounted for, the Knicks rank 20th on defense, allowing 1.091 points per possession. While this may not be something to brag about, it does suggest that the Knicks are closer to an average defense than their points allowed per game would suggest. While New York has improved on defense (they were 27th last season in points allowed per possession), it is on offense where the Knicks have made the most progress, jumping from 17th to 4th in points scored per possession. This improvement is best explained by looking at two statistics: effective field goal percentage and free throw rate. Effective field goal percentage is an adjusted field goal percentage that takes into account the extra point provided by a 3-pointer. Last season the Knicks were an above-average shooting team, finishing ninth in the N.B.A. with an effective field goal percentage of 50.9 percent. This season, though, the Knicks are even more efficient from the floor, with an effective field goal percentage of 52.1 percent, good for fourth in the league. One the biggest surprises from the floor has been the free agent Raymond Felton. Felton never had an above-average effective field goal percentage in two seasons with the Bobcats, but this season he is on pace for a career-best 53.7 percent. The offensive area where the Knicks have shown the most improvement is free throw efficiency, as measured by free throw rate. Free throw rate is simply free throws made per field goal attempt. It is a measure of both how often a team gets to the line and how often it makes them. Last season the Knicks were one of the poorest teams in the league by this measure, with the 3rd-worst free throw rate in the N.B.A. This season the Knicks are not only shooting more free throws, but they are also converting them at a higher rate; they currently have the league’s fifth-best free throw rate. One player who has made great strides in this area is Danilo Gallinari. Gallinari’s minutes per game are down slightly from last season, but his free throw attempts per game have increased from 3.8 to 5.5, and his free throw percentage has jumped from 81.8 percent to 90.6 percent. The Knicks’ minor improvement on defense and major improvement on offense have led them to their best start in ten years. But before Knicks fans start dreaming of a deep run into the playoffs, they should consider one sobering thought: the Knicks have played the league’s second-easiest schedule so far this season. From here on, they play the league’s second-toughest schedule. If the Knicks are going to break their playoff drought, they will need to retain the gains they have made on both ends of the floor. |
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BRIGGS
Posts: 53275 Alba Posts: 7 Joined: 7/30/2002 Member: #303 |
12/10/2010 4:39 PM
rvwink wrote:There have clearly been huge levels of efficiency generated by bringing Amare to the Knicks. Everyone that said that David Lee at 10 Million was a better deal than Amare at 17 Million has been proven wrong. Amare has brought a confidence to the Knicks that simply didn't exist last year. I was watching the end of the Raptures game. Bargnani had just made his last dagger 3 with little time left. With the score tied, about two Raptures raised their arms to celebrate the shot. If you looked at their faces though, it was clear Amare had convinced them, that the likelihood was that the Knicks would score again. They looked like they knew they were destined to lose a 3rd straight time. (The Knicks bench is so much fun to watch with Turiaf in the house.) Exactly right--but the Knicks do need to formulate a plan quickly to bring in some help for the bench asap. RIP Crushalot😞
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nyvector16
Posts: 21323 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/9/2001 Member: #130 USA |
12/10/2010 5:24 PM
If we signed Melo in the offseason without giving up any assets, and then it did not work out for whatever reason we could conceivably trade him for a slew of #1 draft picks and some nice talent because he would be signed to a long term contract.
If nothing else, I sign Melo just to have that trade chip. Only about 4 or 5 guys n the NBA can bring back more value than Melo in a trade(If he is signed long term already). |
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
12/10/2010 5:56 PM
nixluva wrote:Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. hey i don't really "need" Adriana Lima to be lying naked in my bed when i get home tonight, but would i pass up the chance to bang her if she was? hell no! After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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rvwink
Posts: 20412 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/3/2006 Member: #1145 |
12/10/2010 5:56 PM
You are absolutely right. But I wonder whether his agent wouldn't insist on a no trade clause to nip that idea in the bud.
I am convinced Melo will come in with a great attitude and do everything in his power to make it work. The Knicks are clearly his best chance to win a championship. After Amare had scored on 4 in a row in the recent Toronto game, Raymond went away from him, and tossed the ball to Gallinari for a change up. Gallo missed an open 3. When Raymond turned away from Amare and toward Gallo, I remember seeing that after making 5 in a row, Amare had still really wanted the ball. When you have a player like Amare who shoots such a high percentage, isn't it possible that Carmelo may become a little upset when they tell him he can't take the volume of shots he was accustomed to taking. |
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
12/10/2010 6:58 PM
TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. You might have to think about it if it involved you having to give up a Nut for the priviledge!  Sure anyone would take it up for free, but depending upon just how steep the cost is that can change a persons opinion. I think Melo is a specific philosophical decision. How important is it to have that 2 superstar tandem? The big and the wing that most title teams seem to have vs. the Hakeem Rockets/Ewing Knicks style of team where you have a star big and a complementary team around him. The only thing he adds is that crunchtime closer role. Those guys win a few games for you over the course of a season and in the playoffs. Still you can win with the Hakeem/Ewing style of team too. |
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rvwink
Posts: 20412 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/3/2006 Member: #1145 |
12/10/2010 7:08 PM
" The only thing he adds is that crunchtime closer role. "
I could have sworn that we already have someone who is excellent in that role. How many crunchtime closers do we need anyway? |
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TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
12/10/2010 9:20 PM
nixluva wrote:TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. i would seriously have to consider giving up my left nut for a ride in the hay with Adriana. i don't think ur example of the Hakeem Rockets is a good one... he had a top 50 player of alltime Hall of Famer playing next to him in Clyde Drexler when he won 1 of his titles... if that wasn't a 2 superstar tandem, i don't know what is... & Ewing never won a title because the Knicks were always lacking that 2nd superstar player to complement his game... i'm not interested in repeating the same mistake w/Amare. After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
12/10/2010 10:00 PM
TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. Yeah but you can't ignore the 1st one. |
Plus in that year one of either Ewing or Hakeem were going to win, so my example is solid. The 2 best teams in the league that year were made up of a superstar C and role players. Now in this era it may not be possible to win that way, but we won't know for sure until we see how this team is improved. The only Superstar left that we realistically have a chance to get is Melo, so if that doesn't happen we'll have almost no choice but to try and win it with that kind of roster.|
TMS
Posts: 60684 Alba Posts: 617 Joined: 5/11/2004 Member: #674 USA |
12/10/2010 10:05 PM
nixluva wrote:TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:TMS wrote:nixluva wrote:Wanting Melo is one thing. Needing him is another. & i have no problem w/that if that's how Donnie wants to play it... already on record saying there are suitable plan B options out there if we miss out on Melo... i just think Melo is his #1 target right now & i think he's gonna make a big play for him, either at the deadline or this summer via free agency. After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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rvwink
Posts: 20412 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/3/2006 Member: #1145 |
12/11/2010 11:19 AM
Donnie has a huge advantage over the rest of us, in deciding if a trade for Melo makes sense for the Knicks. He knows a lot more accurately than we do, what Denver will take. Unless the Melo deals' terms are agreed upon, I actually don't think the Knicks will go through with the Randolph trade. (My guess is that D'Antoni still wants to continue trying to develop Randolph's potential.)
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BlueSeats
Posts: 27272 Alba Posts: 41 Joined: 11/6/2005 Member: #1024 |
12/11/2010 11:27 AM
Dolan wants Melo.
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