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Pick and Roll..how hard can it be to execute?
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GodSaveTheKnicks
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11/10/2010  4:59 PM
Last season we had Dudu and DLee executing the PnR pretty well.
Teams knew it was our bread and butter but for the most part we were still able to score using it.

Felton and Amare haven't been so great.

I don't think Amare suddenly forgot how to run it.

I've seen Felton doing a little bit better in the last game or 2. He had a nice play where he lobbed it to Amare off a PnR.

Is it just a matter of time before they can run it at least as well as Duhon/Lee (never mind Nash/Amare)? I find it impossible to believe that Felton/Amare can't do something that Duhon/Lee were able to do it.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
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GustavBahler
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11/10/2010  5:02 PM
Yeah, its still early and I've seen Amare bobble a few passes on the pick and roll that looked catchable so I don't want to pin it all on Felton. Like you said its a matter of time till they start clicking. I'm not concerned, not yet anyway.
TMS
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11/10/2010  6:58 PM
Felton is better in the open court pushing the tempo, not in the halfcourt set offense IMO.
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scoshin
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11/10/2010  7:33 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/10/2010  7:33 PM
I'm hoping that at some point during the season (hopefully sooner than later), a light bulb just goes off in Felton's head on what he should be doing, and what he's doing wrong, and then we go on a roll.

It really makes no sense that a crap PG like Duhon was able to execute the PnR well with David Lee...when Duhon was not an offensive threat in any way and teams could just cut off the passing lanes to David Lee.

nixluva
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11/10/2010  9:04 PM
I'm going with what Bip said about repetition being a major key to getting the rhythm down between them. Felton has never played with a guy like Amare and the timing has to be almost instinctive.
ramtour420
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11/10/2010  10:40 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/10/2010  10:41 PM
Ehh, all excuses in my book. Our franchise player thrives in PnR. We, so far, have been abominable trying to run it. Practice that ish. Once Felton starts doing it correctly, we'll be above .500 in no time. We simply will not be able to win , unless we can execute it. When teams see us trying to make it work, they are given truckloads of confidence because we fail at it in such a spectacular matter.
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Vmart
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11/10/2010  11:11 PM
Apparently its to hard for Felton.
eViL
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11/10/2010  11:13 PM
you know i know i said i thought felton was terrible and i looked at his stats and they look pretty good, but man, i just can't stand the way he approaches the pick and roll. he's light years better than duhon in every way except for the pick and roll.

felton has to learn that in the pick and roll less is more. he tries that in and out way too many times when he should just do a straight cross. he's pretty much crossing up amare and throwing off the timing and the spacing of the play. keep it simple dummy.

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crzymdups
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11/10/2010  11:57 PM
even when Duhon was here it took him until the end of November to really get it together running the pick and roll with DLee - remember his breakout game was actually against Golden State I believe - the same game DLee had 38pts and 22rebs in november 2008.

let's give Felton until the end of the month, or better yet, mid-season to get the timing down.

i think he's playing pretty well otherwise.

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GodSaveTheKnicks
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11/11/2010  9:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/11/2010  2:00 PM
Yeah other than pnr I like what he does defensively and I def don't miss Duhon's missed layups and constantly pulling it back every time we try to run out after a defensive stop. But in crunch time last night we looked terrible getting amare the ball where he's effective. He kept on getting the ball near the three pt line or top of the key extended. Every pick n roll ended with Felton unable to connect with amare and instead swinging the ball to someone downtown.

Golden state is not a great defensive team either...

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
NYKBocker
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11/11/2010  10:13 AM
If PnR is not working for Felton then have Gallo or The Mayor play the PnR with Amare. It seems these 2 are better at it than Felton. Let Felton push the ball on the break but defer to Gallo and The Mayor in the PnR.
fishmike
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11/11/2010  10:21 AM
GS is what MDA wants the Knicks to be. Outscore your opponents with volumes of better shots. Thats why they wanted Lee so bad to go with Curry/Ellis, and you can see why. 6-2
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Moonangie
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11/11/2010  11:05 AM
eViL wrote:you know i know i said i thought felton was terrible and i looked at his stats and they look pretty good, but man, i just can't stand the way he approaches the pick and roll. he's light years better than duhon in every way except for the pick and roll.

felton has to learn that in the pick and roll less is more. he tries that in and out way too many times when he should just do a straight cross. he's pretty much crossing up amare and throwing off the timing and the spacing of the play. keep it simple dummy.

I agree with this. I also think that teams are not afraid of Felton taking it all the way to the rim, so they play off him and close down the passing lane to the roller. Felton has a good handle but he isn't very good at finishing when he takes it strong to the hole. His floaters and runners are not well aimed and usually clunk off the rim.

Nalod
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11/11/2010  11:23 AM
Moonangie wins..........

If a team does not weakside help it means Amare is still covered.

They are giving us the lane but the the pick and roll. Felton does it great with Moz at times. Felton has to see it better to what the D is giving him.

How hard is it to execute?

It the NBA, all the teams and players are top notch.

Nash made it look easy because he could drop step back and nail a jumper about anywhere. Felton does have this level of skill. Up up on Nash he'll blow by you, and when his beaten man gets help, bam, the Pick and roll is available. If Felton does not pull up for the shot, the defense backs up and clogs the paint which is where the turn overs are coming. This gives us open three's when it gets kicked out. The three is the third option.

Hit them and the Defense has to address it. Not, they can keep cloggng us.

Thats whats happening.

We don't need to shoot 70% but we gotta get better.

Feltons 4pt play we great last nite! The kid has good skills and I think he can get it done.

GustavBahler
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11/11/2010  11:48 AM
Nalod wrote:

Nash made it look easy because he could drop step back and nail a jumper about anywhere. Felton does have this level of skill. Up up on Nash he'll blow by you, and when his beaten man gets help, bam, the Pick and roll is available. If Felton does not pull up for the shot, the defense backs up and clogs the paint which is where the turn overs are coming. This gives us open three's when it gets kicked out. The three is the third option.

Nash could also loiter around the paint and reset if he didn't see anything, and when the defense reacted he finds a cutter. You're right, Felton has the tools to be effective, even without the pick and roll. He was brought here to push the ball and so far he hasn't done it nearly enough. When he does run its usually because he is looking for his own shot.

There is a lot of discussion about who should go first. If by the all-star break Felton is the same player we are seeing now then I hope Walsh starts looking for a real floor general. There is so much youth on this team that I could live with Walsh getting an older PG that plays smart.

Ira
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11/11/2010  1:54 PM
Felton was a bad signing. His salary is too high and, while his athleticism is a plus, his difficulty with the PNR is a big liability.
CrushAlot
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11/11/2010  1:59 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:

Nash made it look easy because he could drop step back and nail a jumper about anywhere. Felton does have this level of skill. Up up on Nash he'll blow by you, and when his beaten man gets help, bam, the Pick and roll is available. If Felton does not pull up for the shot, the defense backs up and clogs the paint which is where the turn overs are coming. This gives us open three's when it gets kicked out. The three is the third option.

Nash could also loiter around the paint and reset if he didn't see anything, and when the defense reacted he finds a cutter. You're right, Felton has the tools to be effective, even without the pick and roll. He was brought here to push the ball and so far he hasn't done it nearly enough. When he does run its usually because he is looking for his own shot.

There is a lot of discussion about who should go first. If by the all-star break Felton is the same player we are seeing now then I hope Walsh starts looking for a real floor general. There is so much youth on this team that I could live with Walsh getting an older PG that plays smart.

I think Nash was a lot like Jim Kelly in the no huddle. He was the perfect guy to run it and it worked.
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tj23
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11/11/2010  4:32 PM
crzymdups wrote:even when Duhon was here it took him until the end of November to really get it together running the pick and roll with DLee - remember his breakout game was actually against Golden State I believe - the same game DLee had 38pts and 22rebs in november 2008.

let's give Felton until the end of the month, or better yet, mid-season to get the timing down.

i think he's playing pretty well otherwise.


Nah man Duhon was running that ish from day 1. I think i still got that miami game taped haha
tj23
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11/11/2010  4:34 PM
Ira wrote:Felton was a bad signing. His salary is too high and, while his athleticism is a plus, his difficulty with the PNR is a big liability.

Yeah but what other option did we have? At least felton can drive and finish or kick out.
Markji
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11/11/2010  9:55 PM
tj23 wrote:
Ira wrote:Felton was a bad signing. His salary is too high and, while his athleticism is a plus, his difficulty with the PNR is a big liability.

Yeah but what other option did we have? At least felton can drive and finish or kick out.
Agree that Felton was a very good signing. I think the PnR isn't working so well because the other team triple teams Amare when he gets the ball inside. This works for them because we can't shoot the 3 with any consistancy.

Deron Williams instructing on 4 options of the PnR. Very good educational video.

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Pick and Roll..how hard can it be to execute?

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