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Iggy v Melo, one guy's opinion [article]
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martin
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9/29/2010  8:59 PM
http://philadunkia.com/?p=2725
‘MELO OUT
Posted by: Tom Sunnergren
09/29/10 9:45 am EST

Ok, so there are some rumor winds swirling from Philly.com that the Sixers have made an offer for malcontent Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony, and that the Nuggets kinda, sorta, maybe like the deal. The question of the hour is, do they like it, or do they like it, like it.

Let’s say they like it, like it. I’m going to peer into my crystal ball and tell you how this one plays out (BTW, my crystal ball is a replica of Ed Stefanski’s head). The trade would be incredibly popular initially with both fans and the less-savvy members of the media (but I repeat myself, zing!), and everybody would sing the praises of Rod Thorn and draw parallels between his acquisition of Jason Kidd ten years ago and the Nets consequent rise to the top of the East and his now acquisition of a twenty-six year old Olympian, near scoring champion and, in the circumspect and well-considered words of Chauncy Billups, “one of the top two or three players in the world.” Hot damn, this Thorn is a wheelin’, dealin’, riverboat gambler! He turned Igoudala into Carmelo. How’s that for alchemy? — the columns would read.

Expectations would be high. Through the roof. They would literally explode through the roof. After enough roofs were destroyed, people would learn not to keep these expectations indoors. They’d be left outside to soar, to be free. And why not? Carmelo Anthony is the single best player in basketball not named Kobe, Lebron or Durant! We know that because he scores the most. You can’t win without scoring points, anybody knows that. And the guy he’s replacing? Iguodala? More like “ugly(jumper)odala!” That guy sucks. Look at his scoring for crying out loud. Carmelo scores waaaaaaay more than him. Carmelo, points, Carmelo, twenty-eight a game, Carmelo, scorer, Carmellllllllloooooo! That’s how the conventional wisdom would go. And who could argue with it. Carmelo does score a lot of points. And everybody knows the best player is the guy who scores the most. Period.

Pretty soon though the Sixers would have to start playing games, would lose these games, and this unexpected losing would cause the hype train –fuelled by a month of irrational exuberance– to tragically derail, possibly killing Phil Jasner. After Jasner was mourned, people would return to puzzling over why the Sixers, the purportedly reborn Sixers, were losing games at such a break-neck pace. It’s the chemistry, Jrue Holliday hasn’t developed, Carmelo isn’t comfortable under the harsh Philly-spotlight, Doug Collins is the culprit, Lou Williams isn’t driving enough, Phil Collins is the culprit (The PA had played too much Genesis in pregame), Evan Turner hasn’t warranted his high pick, the papers would loudly speculate, throwing darts at the mounting losses. The question that would be on the tip of everyone’s tongue (or the tongues of the few who were still paying attention to an NBA team with a .250 winning percentage) would be an understandable one: What the hell happened?

This, dear reader, is what the hell happened. The reason the Sixers, despite swapping a scrub like Iguodala for a top player like Melo, would still suck is because Carmelo Anthony – all-star, 2ndteam all-NBA, Olympic gold medalist, NCAA national-champion, Carmelo Anthony– sucks. And Andre Iguodala is a star. Yeah, I went there.

Here’s a chart that demonstrates this little known fact. (The bold font indicates head-to-head superiority, red indicates inferiority to others at his position)


Statistic Average Iguodala’s Average Melo’s
SG Career SF Career
---------------------------------------------------------------
Points per shot 0.96 1.00 0.97 0.96
Free Throw Percentage 0.8 0.75 0.76 0.8
Field Goal Attempts 17.5 14.9 16.7 25.4
Free Throw Attempts 4.9 6.6 5.0 10.4
Points Scored 20.8 20.0 19.9 32.5
Rebounds 5.6 7.3 7.6 8.2
Steals 1.8 2.2 1.6 1.5
Blocked Shots 0.5 0.6 0.8 0.6
Assists 4.6 5.8 3.6 4.1
Turnovers 2.8 3.1 2.8 4.1
Personal Fouls 3.7 2.8 4.2 4.0

I’m going to take a moment here to remind you readers of a fundamental rule of basketball: the only way to understand a basketball player’s statistical performance is in relation to others at his position. A center who gets ten rebounds per 48 minutes is not doing a great job of getting rebounds but a point guard who gets ten rebounds per 48 minutes is a world beater. Each position comes with unique responsibilities and opportunities and these unique responsibilities and opportunities manifest themselves in different average statistical performances. Iggy and Melo play different positions and despite the fact that the position Melo plays gives players more opportunity to contribute, Iggy contributes more.

Let’s focus on just Melo for a moment though. There are two problems with him. He’s an inefficient shooter (this is partly because he’s a bad three-point shooter who insists on shooting three-pointers) and instead of responding to this hole in his game by not shooting so much, he shoots constantly. In the time it takes you to read this sentence, he will have taken three shots. This takes shots away from other Nuggets who –if they are at least average shooters– would be more likely to turn them into points. The second issue is he turns the ball over more than he should.

So despite his ability to get to the line, overall Melo is just an average player (I shouldn’t have said he sucked earlier. I got carried away). A-v-e-r-a-g-e. This, in a vacuum, is ok. Average players are actually pretty valuable. The problem with Melo though isn’t his averageness, it’s that he makes a ridiculous amount of money for it. Here’s a chart that explains the cost/benefit of employing him over the past five years.


Fiscal Year Wins Cost of a Win* Value of Wins Amount Paid Surplus Value
Produced
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005-2006 3.49 $1.347 mil $4.70 mil $3.71 mil $0.99 mil
2006-2007 3.42 $1.478 mil $5.05 mil $4.69 mil $0.36 mil
2007-2008 7.66 $1.610 mil $12.33 mil $13.04 mil -$0.71 mil
2008-2009 4.74 $1.755 mil $8.31 mil $14.4 mil -$6.08 mil
2009-2010 5.98 $1.730 mil $10.36 mil $15.78 mil -$5.43 mil

*This figure was arrived at by dividing total player salaries for each given season by total wins in each given season, or 41 per team.

That negative number on the far right is the difference between what he’s paid and what he’s worth. It’s quite a gulf, and it’s one that’s likely to widen. His best career season he produced $12 million of wins for the Nuggets. If we assume he has the best season of his career every year for the remainder of the extension he’s going to sign with whoever(a charitable assumption for Melo), he will be getting paid about fifty million dollars more than he’s worth over the course of the deal. So he’s a really bad deal. Oh, and here’s Iguodala – a bargain player and a comparative steal vs. Melo .


Fiscal Year Wins Cost of a Win* Value of Wins Amount Paid Surplus Value
Produced
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005-2006 11.7 $1.347 mil $15.76 mil $2.058 mil $13.702 mil
2006-2007 11.61 $1.478 mil $17.16 mil $2.202 mil $14.96 mil
2007-2008 11.14 $1.610 mil $17.94 mil $2.805 mil $15.135 mil
2008-2009 12.46 $1.755 mil $21.87 mil $11.3 mil $10.57 mil
2009-2010 13.63 $1.730 mil $23.58 mil $12.2 mil $11.38 mil


So in one corner we have a very good player who’s underpaid, and in the other we have a mediocre player who’s vastly overpaid and will soon be even more overpaid. I often think (and say and write) that things can’t get any worse for the Sixers. When they show a willingness to enter into a trade like this, I’m humbly reminded that things can always get worse. And as I type this, the Nets are apparently withdrawing from the Melo-sweepstakes, so it looks increasingly likely that they will.

Hopefully this doesn’t go through, as it would be yet another instance of the Sixers choosing form over function.

Not only is Iguodala objectively more productive than Melo, he’s cheaper. A lot cheaper.

But in today’s NBA snitches get stitches and scorers get max-deals.

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AnubisADL
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9/29/2010  9:57 PM
No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.
NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
tkf
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9/29/2010  10:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/29/2010  10:10 PM
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

yea, sometimes guys try to use numbers to justify one athlete being better than another.. And as an accountant a person who deals with numbers a lot, I can appreciate that... but there is one thing I also appreciate.. MY eyes.. the eyeball test.. and my eyes also tell me that Carmelo is > Iggy.... end of story..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Panos
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9/29/2010  10:21 PM
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

He's not saying Iggy's strictly better than Igoudala.
He's saying better value for the money. Which means you can spend the rest of the money to pay other talent.

nixluva
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9/29/2010  10:27 PM
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Vmart
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9/29/2010  10:43 PM
nixluva wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Denver is a bad team without Melo.

nixluva
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9/29/2010  11:16 PM
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Denver is a bad team without Melo.

IMO that Denver team was better than the supporting cast that Lebron has had in Cleveland. Billups, JR, Nene, Birdman etc is a good group. I mean a really bad team that doesn't have another All Star/World Champ/Finals MVP on it. I understand what you're trying to say, but my point is that it really doesn't help your cause that much to add a player whose real impact is when a game is on the line when you have a ton of holes in the roster and are more likely to get beat due to lack of reb, defense, passing etc. Charlotte did more without a star player than many teams cuz they did all the little things. Now if you add a closer to that team it would really make a difference. That was pretty much what LB had in PHilly with Iverson.

GodSaveTheKnicks
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9/30/2010  12:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/30/2010  12:46 AM
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Carmelo is a much better scorer than Iggy. Melo's jump shot is a thing of beauty. Iggy has the edge in a lot of other categories.

It's funny that the Philadunkia put a lot of thought and effort into his analysis and THAT is your response. Your eyes....

Denver made it to the playoffs. Not Carmelo Anthony.
Philly missed the playoffs. Not Iggy.
This is not tennis or golf.


"I think, really, that this is one reason that so many intelligent people drift away from baseball (when they come of age), that if you care about it at all you have to realize, as soon as you acquire a taste for independent thought, that a great portion of the sport's traditional knowledge is ridiculous hokum."

"Paul DePodesta and Billy Beane had concluded that on-base percentage was three times more important than slugging percentage and that secondary traits in a hitter, widely ignored by the rest of baseball, were also critically important to the success of the team."

I think the best GMs in the league are using scouting AND a combination of advanced statistics to measure the value of players.

vs.

"That guy sucks. Look at his scoring for crying out loud. Carmelo scores waaaaaaay more than him. Carmelo, points, Carmelo, twenty-eight a game, Carmelo, scorer, Carmellllllllloooooo! That’s how the conventional wisdom would go. And who could argue with it. Carmelo does score a lot of points. And everybody knows the best player is the guy who scores the most. Period."

I think the author may have gone a bit overboard by saying Melo sucks. Obviously he doesn't...but it appears that scoring is a skill that is either priced fairly in the NBA or overpriced.

As a GM, wouldn't it make sense to consider using your resources by trying to find undervalued players/skills?

I'd rather pay $15M for an elite point guard like Deron Williams who can score AND pass AND defend vs maxing out Melo. Given that there's only a handful of guys like that in this league..do you just spend the $ on the next best thing or try to spread the money out until someone comes along who is an all around beast? Maybe it's a just a personal bias I have against scoring SFs vs Gary Payton types.

BTW I still think Melo is clearly a top 20 player. Arguably top 10.

I'm still just not sure whether he'll be AI like (gunner with ridiculous competitive spirit/work ethic whose game stayed the same) or a Kobe (gunner with ridiculous competitive spirit/work ethic/ whose game evolved). Was AI worth the max? Hell yeah. He put butts in the seats and could carry a team to the playoffs. Would Philly maybe have been better off maxing out a Jason Kidd instead?

I dunno. Payton never won a ring. I guess Kidd never won a ring either. Do you think the Nuggets of the last few seasons go further with a maxed out Kidd or Payton at PG along with a Corey Maggette just jacking up the shots that Melo normally does?

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
BigDaddyG
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9/30/2010  1:34 AM
tkf wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

yea, sometimes guys try to use numbers to justify one athlete being better than another.. And as an accountant a person who deals with numbers a lot, I can appreciate that... but there is one thing I also appreciate.. MY eyes.. the eyeball test.. and my eyes also tell me that Carmelo is > Iggy.... end of story..

It's not just your eyes, but these stats seem off. How can Melo score 32.5 points per game for his career and take 25 shots per game but average less than one point per shot? How can Iggy average 20 points per 48 and 15 shots and only have an average of one point per shot?

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Anji
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9/30/2010  8:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/30/2010  8:44 AM
This article reminds me of when my teacher used to say," there is a reason why Math Professors don't build bridges".

These numbers and stats are good up into a point, but in the real world things are not always as simple 2 times of less is equivalent. Two or three guys making half as much as Melo does not equal the things at a dominate level like Melo gives you.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:As a GM, wouldn't it make sense to consider using your resources by trying to find undervalued players/skills?

I'd rather pay $15M for an elite point guard like Deron Williams who can score AND pass AND defend vs maxing out Melo. Given that there's only a handful of guys like that in this league..do you just spend the $ on the next best thing or try to spread the money out until someone comes along who is an all around beast? Maybe it's a just a personal bias I have against scoring SFs vs Gary Payton types.</blockquote>


Good lordy, can have some of what you are smoking...... at least you admit a bias unlike the Article writer. Deron Williams plays an important position in the NBA no doubt,but saying you would rather have a max Point Guard over a Max small forward is moot. Melo being a top 5 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Mix) and Deron being a top 10 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Howard/Melo/Dirk/Durant/Mix)


As a GM it makes sense to get a Star and build, this isn't some special order pizza pie. Look at Riley, he has Magic and builds a track. He has Ewing and he builds a fight club. He get's Wade and builds a team around him(the first ring, this team is just over kill).

"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
knickstorrents
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9/30/2010  8:52 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:It's not just your eyes, but these stats seem off. How can Melo score 32.5 points per game for his career and take 25 shots per game but average less than one point per shot? How can Iggy average 20 points per 48 and 15 shots and only have an average of one point per shot?

Yea it seems like he's not using the actual points per shot statistic but some kind of ratio of their avg points per shot vs. the league wide average for that position. So it's not a raw score but a ratio. He doesn't show what the actual numbers are for the league wide average for shooting guards and small forwards though. That would make it clearer.

Rose is not the answer.
martin
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9/30/2010  9:39 AM
Anji wrote:This article reminds me of when my teacher used to say," there is a reason why Math Professors don't build bridges".

These numbers and stats are good up into a point, but in the real world things are not always as simple 2 times of less is equivalent. Two or three guys making half as much as Melo does not equal the things at a dominate level like Melo gives you.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:As a GM, wouldn't it make sense to consider using your resources by trying to find undervalued players/skills?

I'd rather pay $15M for an elite point guard like Deron Williams who can score AND pass AND defend vs maxing out Melo. Given that there's only a handful of guys like that in this league..do you just spend the $ on the next best thing or try to spread the money out until someone comes along who is an all around beast? Maybe it's a just a personal bias I have against scoring SFs vs Gary Payton types.</blockquote>


Good lordy, can have some of what you are smoking...... at least you admit a bias unlike the Article writer. Deron Williams plays an important position in the NBA no doubt,but saying you would rather have a max Point Guard over a Max small forward is moot. Melo being a top 5 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Mix) and Deron being a top 10 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Howard/Melo/Dirk/Durant/Mix)

Why is Melo within your top 5 mix? I see the names Kobe, LeBron, Wade and I come away with 2-way players. Melo is as good as or better at scoring as those guys, but he ain't anywhere near that on the D side of things, and that's why I would put him in that second bucket as perhaps within top 10.

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fishmike
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9/30/2010  10:00 AM
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Denver is a bad team without Melo.

And Phili is a bad team with Melo.

Thats the point. The stats, etc are painting a picture that Iggy is essentially better at everything then Melo is, except scoring. The problem is Melo's scoring comes at a poor usage rate, much lower than Iggy's so I think the article is pretty fair. That Melo wouldnt make the Sixers much better, if at all.

Now the thing it doesnt address is the end of game. And if you team is good enough to be in it every night then having a player like Melo WILL MOST DEFINATLY translate into a bunch more wins, because in the last 2 minutes he will get his shot off, he will score and he will go 6-6 from the FT line in the last 3 posessions if you mob him.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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9/30/2010  10:08 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
tkf wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

yea, sometimes guys try to use numbers to justify one athlete being better than another.. And as an accountant a person who deals with numbers a lot, I can appreciate that... but there is one thing I also appreciate.. MY eyes.. the eyeball test.. and my eyes also tell me that Carmelo is > Iggy.... end of story..

It's not just your eyes, but these stats seem off. How can Melo score 32.5 points per game for his career and take 25 shots per game but average less than one point per shot? How can Iggy average 20 points per 48 and 15 shots and only have an average of one point per shot?

GOOD point.. It is called creative math.... LOL

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
martin
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9/30/2010  10:17 AM
tkf wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
tkf wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

yea, sometimes guys try to use numbers to justify one athlete being better than another.. And as an accountant a person who deals with numbers a lot, I can appreciate that... but there is one thing I also appreciate.. MY eyes.. the eyeball test.. and my eyes also tell me that Carmelo is > Iggy.... end of story..

It's not just your eyes, but these stats seem off. How can Melo score 32.5 points per game for his career and take 25 shots per game but average less than one point per shot? How can Iggy average 20 points per 48 and 15 shots and only have an average of one point per shot?

GOOD point.. It is called creative math.... LOL

FT's and 3 point attempts.

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Vmart
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9/30/2010  10:20 AM
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Denver is a bad team without Melo.

And Phili is a bad team with Melo.

Thats the point. The stats, etc are painting a picture that Iggy is essentially better at everything then Melo is, except scoring. The problem is Melo's scoring comes at a poor usage rate, much lower than Iggy's so I think the article is pretty fair. That Melo wouldnt make the Sixers much better, if at all.

Now the thing it doesnt address is the end of game. And if you team is good enough to be in it every night then having a player like Melo WILL MOST DEFINATLY translate into a bunch more wins, because in the last 2 minutes he will get his shot off, he will score and he will go 6-6 from the FT line in the last 3 posessions if you mob him.

Melo takes Philly to the playoffs year in year out. He demads doubles and a game plan. Iggy doesn't require any game planning. Just a guy to stay close to him and dare him to take jumpers. Fish your dislike for Melo leaves you with a bias feeling towards Melo. We get it that you like the current Knicks team. But please stop with Melo bashing as it makes your relevant point irrelevant. You don't understand the effect Melo has on the entire team knowing that they have a player that can explode on any given night, he give the others a quite confidence that Iggy can't give that is huge in basketball.

fishmike
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9/30/2010  10:46 AM
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:
nixluva wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:No disrespect to the author but my eyes tell me Carmelo > Igoudala. Igoudala cannot even get Philly to the playoffs in the East.

Some guys are middle of the game studs and others are closers. AI is a middle of the game star, but he's not a closer as is Melo. Melo is really not helping you much in the middle of the game, but in crunchtime he's a guy that you can go to that is impossible to stop. If your team sucks you don't want Melo, you want AI, cuz he lifts up the overall play of the team. Melo would be wasted on bad team cuz his value is in closing out a win or stepping up to will his team to win in a come from behind effort. Guys like AI don't have that kind of offensive explosion capability.

I prefer to keep Gallo and AR cuz together they give us a bit of both. Both Gallo and AR are solid middle of the game peformers, since they fill the stat sheet doing all the little things well. Still they both have a decent level of creative scoring ability that can give you a spurt of scoring when you need it. Gallo showed that a bit last year against Melo himself. Neither will ever be as explosive as Melo, but we may not need them to be if we have leads due to how much they help in the middle of the game.

Denver is a bad team without Melo.

And Phili is a bad team with Melo.

Thats the point. The stats, etc are painting a picture that Iggy is essentially better at everything then Melo is, except scoring. The problem is Melo's scoring comes at a poor usage rate, much lower than Iggy's so I think the article is pretty fair. That Melo wouldnt make the Sixers much better, if at all.

Now the thing it doesnt address is the end of game. And if you team is good enough to be in it every night then having a player like Melo WILL MOST DEFINATLY translate into a bunch more wins, because in the last 2 minutes he will get his shot off, he will score and he will go 6-6 from the FT line in the last 3 posessions if you mob him.

Melo takes Philly to the playoffs year in year out. He demads doubles and a game plan. Iggy doesn't require any game planning. Just a guy to stay close to him and dare him to take jumpers. Fish your dislike for Melo leaves you with a bias feeling towards Melo. We get it that you like the current Knicks team. But please stop with Melo bashing as it makes your relevant point irrelevant. You don't understand the effect Melo has on the entire team knowing that they have a player that can explode on any given night, he give the others a quite confidence that Iggy can't give that is huge in basketball.


I have never bashed Melo. Not once. He scores and does little else. Is that bashing? Is Melo a great playmaker? Great rebounder? Is he even an average defender? Is that bashing? I love that Melo wants to come here. Have I not said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that we should give him a MAX contract next summer? I guess thats bashing as well?

Melo is a scorer and a GREAT finisher. Sorry if I see him for what he is. Obviously the guy in this article does also.

I hope he's a Knick next year when he's a FA and we can add a dominant scorer like that to this group built around size and athleticism

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GodSaveTheKnicks
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9/30/2010  2:35 PM
martin wrote:
Anji wrote:This article reminds me of when my teacher used to say," there is a reason why Math Professors don't build bridges".

These numbers and stats are good up into a point, but in the real world things are not always as simple 2 times of less is equivalent. Two or three guys making half as much as Melo does not equal the things at a dominate level like Melo gives you.

GodSaveTheKnicks wrote:As a GM, wouldn't it make sense to consider using your resources by trying to find undervalued players/skills?

I'd rather pay $15M for an elite point guard like Deron Williams who can score AND pass AND defend vs maxing out Melo. Given that there's only a handful of guys like that in this league..do you just spend the $ on the next best thing or try to spread the money out until someone comes along who is an all around beast? Maybe it's a just a personal bias I have against scoring SFs vs Gary Payton types.</blockquote>


Good lordy, can have some of what you are smoking...... at least you admit a bias unlike the Article writer. Deron Williams plays an important position in the NBA no doubt,but saying you would rather have a max Point Guard over a Max small forward is moot. Melo being a top 5 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Mix) and Deron being a top 10 guy(Kobe/Lebron/Wade/Howard/Melo/Dirk/Durant/Mix)

Why is Melo within your top 5 mix? I see the names Kobe, LeBron, Wade and I come away with 2-way players. Melo is as good as or better at scoring as those guys, but he ain't anywhere near that on the D side of things, and that's why I would put him in that second bucket as perhaps within top 10.

Gotta agree. Anji... how can you be one of the top 5 players in the NBA when you're only elite on one side of the court? I've seen Melo D up Lebron and Kobe when they're in one of duels. If he was that tenacious on D more often he could easily be top 5.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
OldFan
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9/30/2010  5:10 PM
I don't see Mello as a top five player.
Which of these trades do you think would favor the team getting Mello?
Lebron - Mello
Kobe - Mello
Wade - Mello
Durant - Mello
Howard - Mello
Paul - Mello
Nowitzki - Mello
Nash - Mello
D Williams - Mello
Amare - Mello

Excluding age/injury potential I would take the non Mello side of all those trades.

s3231
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9/30/2010  5:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/30/2010  5:52 PM
Wow that is one of the most ridiculous articles I've ever read. I don't think Melo is on the same level as Wade or LeBron but to suggest he's an average player is pretty insane.

The writer doesn't come close to proving Iggy is as productive as Melo (nevermind being more productive than Melo, which the author even foolishly claims). He points out that Melo isn't the most efficient scorer (very valid, but not many people can be LeBron/Durant) however, completely disregards the fact that Iggy has career shooting percentages that are essentially around the same as Melo's (which speaks more to Iggy's lack of offense as he doesn't come close to providing the scoring volume that Melo does). The author seems to believe that scoring 28 ppg on a playoff team (aka teams gameplan for you) is an easy task and suggests that any player can do it with the right amount of shots (obviously not true).

I mean I rely on numbers almost as much as anyone but if the author wants to turn this into a win vs. loss thing, then how come he doesn't mention that the Sixers have struggled to be competitive ever since they lost Andre Miller? Miller was traded to Philly and brought that team to the playoffs. Iverson was even traded to help Iggy become "the man" in Philly and while he is certainly a good player, he hasn't shown any indication yet that he can be the top player on a dangerous team.

Meanwhile, Melo came into the league as a rookie and immediately took the Nuggets back to the playoffs. They have been competitive ever since, even going to the Western Conference Finals.

How do you call the best player on a team like that mediocre?

I mean don't get me wrong, I would take a guy like Wade/LeBron/Durant over Melo in a heartbeat but Melo is still a pretty damn good player even if he doesn't play defense with the best of em. Iguodala is the type of player that can be a perfect 4th option on a contending/championship team. Melo has already been the top option on a Western Conference Finals team, it's not even close. In case the author hasn't noticed, market value for guys that are likely to make the all-star game each season is the max contract. Yeah, max contracts are costly, but that doesn't mean you take an inferior player because of it.

"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
Iggy v Melo, one guy's opinion [article]

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