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Can someone post the Hollinger ESPN Insider story on Amare ?
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JrZyHuStLa
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7/5/2010  9:54 PM
Thanks.
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nyk4ever
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7/5/2010  9:58 PM
The New York Knicks aren't getting Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade, and they probably aren't getting LeBron James, either.

But at least the Knicks got somebody.

Monday's announcement that New York agreed to terms with Amare Stoudemire on a five-year, $99.74 million deal at least forestalls the Armageddon scenario for the Knicks. Their two years of self-imposed playoff exile in order to create cap space weren't for naught.

Stoudemire obviously comes with some asterisks. He's had microfracture surgery, and one bad hit to his eye could be a career-ender. He's not a great defender or passer and wouldn't win a most popular teammate competition.

That said, the pros outweigh the cons for New York. For starters, Stoudemire obviously has had success in coach Mike D'Antoni's system. This was probably the best landing spot for him careerwise if he couldn't return to the Suns.

More importantly, adding Stoudemire makes many other things possible for the Knicks. Now they inform other major free agents that they have a centerpiece to build around. That applies this summer and will apply just as strongly in a year, when the likes of Tony Parker and Carmelo Anthony could be on the market and the Knicks will have more cap space as a result of Eddy Curry's expiring contract.

In the shorter term, the Knicks have a stronger selling point to make to James and Wade. Even if those pitches ultimately fall on deaf ears, which seems likely, they can make a stronger sell to the likes of defensive center Brendan Haywood and pick-and-roll specialist Luke Ridnour as well. Those types of pickups wouldn't be nearly as sexy but would enable to the Knicks to field a competent, playoff-caliber roster next season.

And, of course, they can sign-and-trade David Lee. Keeping Lee is an option, but he'd make a terrible frontcourt partner for Stoudemire -- both thrive as the dive man in pick-and-rolls, and neither plays much defense (although Stoudemire will look like Bill Russell compared to Lee). Depending on how things go with other free agents, the Knicks might prefer to deal for future draft picks rather than current contracts. However, because they'll sign Stoudemire under the cap, the Knicks would be ineligible for a trade exception in such a deal. Another possibility is sending Lee to Golden State for Monta Ellis, although that would swallow up much of the cap space available to sign other free agents.

Basically, signing Stoudemire gives the Knicks options -- realistic options, not the pie-in-the-sky stuff we've been hearing about for the past two years. For that reason alone, it's a good deal that enables them to finally turn the page on a forgettable last decade. Their financial strength makes it better. Unlike some other teams, they will be able to afford it if Stoudemire disappoints in the final couple of years of the contract.

As for Phoenix, losing Stoudemire leaves a major hole. The Suns obviously thought Stoudemire was leaving when they signed Hakim Warrick and Channing Frye, but their unwillingness to pursue a sign-and-trade leaves me puzzled.

The Suns, who have no general manager or assistant GM at the moment, apparently thought they had to renounce their rights to Stoudemire once they agreed with Warrick and Frye. Alas, that simply isn't true. It doesn't matter in what order deals are agreed to; what matters is the order in which they're signed. Phoenix could have received contracts worth slightly more than $2 million in a sign-and-trade provided they had executed that deal before Warrick signed his contract.

Here's how it works. Under a little-known provision, the Suns could have removed Frye's cap hold by signing him with their midlevel exception first, because they still would have been over the cap while Stoudemire's cap hold stayed on their books. Then they could have sign-and-traded him to another team and taken back just enough salary to leave them $4 million under, enabling them to sign Warrick under the cap.

The Suns weren't going to get a treasure trove out of this in any case, but they could have received a couple of minor assets for their trouble in getting Stoudemire and his new team a more favorably structured deal (a sixth year for Stoudemire, which could happen only in a sign-and-trade -- plus, the larger raises permitted in such deals would have let his new club spread the money out over a longer period to create more cap space).

Depending on how things go for the Bulls during the next few days, they also had the possibility of structuring a Stoudemire-for-Warrick three-way sign-and-trade to give themselves a massive trade exception. (They would have stayed over the cap in that scenario and thus legally could obtain the exception.)

Apparently nobody in Phoenix was thinking about any of this stuff, although the Suns still have three days to scramble. Instead, they'll have roughly $2 million in cap room to fill Louis Amundson's slot in their rotation and a bunch of minimum contracts to fill out the roster. They were good enough last season that they might make the playoffs even without Stoudemire, but this is a major loss.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
OjilEye
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7/5/2010  9:59 PM
Sweet! Thanks nyk4ever!
CrushAlot
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7/5/2010  10:03 PM
Sarver and who ever he has acting as GM messed up bad by renouncing Amare.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
nyk4ever
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7/5/2010  10:04 PM
OjilEye wrote:Sweet! Thanks nyk4ever!

no prob bro

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
scoshin
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7/5/2010  10:05 PM
whatever, worked in our favor. 5 years/$100M is something I can accept. Add an extra year and another $22M, and this contract reaches JJ levels. I'm glad Phoenix flat out renounced Amare.
OasisBU
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7/5/2010  10:06 PM
Interesting amount of doubt about NY's ability to sign Wade or Lebron. They are long shots but this guy basically says no chance.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
AnubisADL
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7/5/2010  10:08 PM
I think Amare will be solid for the year 1-3 and after that he will be albatross status.
NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
VDesai
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7/5/2010  10:12 PM
Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.
VDesai
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7/5/2010  10:13 PM
OasisBU wrote:Interesting amount of doubt about NY's ability to sign Wade or Lebron. They are long shots but this guy basically says no chance.

Hollinger is a stats guy not a scoops guy

Cosmic
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7/5/2010  10:14 PM
VDesai wrote:Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.

They had to renounce him to sign Frye and Warrick. They didn't have the space otherwise due to Amare's cap hold.

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
AnubisADL
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7/5/2010  10:15 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Sarver and who ever he has acting as GM messed up bad by renouncing Amare.

You do know Nash on has 2 yrs left on his deal right? Suns are about to switch to rebuild mode soon.

NY Knicks - Retirement home for players and GMs
VDesai
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7/5/2010  10:22 PM
Cosmic wrote:
VDesai wrote:Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.

They had to renounce him to sign Frye and Warrick. They didn't have the space otherwise due to Amare's cap hold.


They haven't signed Warrick yet and can't officially sign him till Thursday yesterday. A verbal agreement doesn't mean they'd have to renounce Amare yet. We can go get a verbal from Lebron right now and we wouldn't immediately need to renounce Lee too make that happen. There's no logical reason to renounce someone till official signings can happen.

Cosmic
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7/5/2010  10:25 PM
VDesai wrote:
Cosmic wrote:
VDesai wrote:Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.

They had to renounce him to sign Frye and Warrick. They didn't have the space otherwise due to Amare's cap hold.


They haven't signed Warrick yet and can't officially sign him till Thursday yesterday. A verbal agreement doesn't mean they'd have to renounce Amare yet. We can go get a verbal from Lebron right now and we wouldn't immediately need to renounce Lee too make that happen. There's no logical reason to renounce someone till official signings can happen.

Amare wanted 5 full max guaranteed years.

The Suns were unwilling to give it to him be it for themselves or in a sign and trade - they didn't want to take back an equal amount of salary.

They tried to re-sign him. He didn't want to agree to their terms. It was obvious there was nothing more to be done.

So they went in another direction and renounced his rights so they could do so.

Kinda simple stuff there if you read into it. It was over. They weren't keeping him. They weren't S&T'ing him. They didn't want to meet the contract demands one way or another. So they parted ways.

OPtimus is right: They are going to rebuild. As well they should. It has run it's course.

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
Solace
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7/5/2010  10:25 PM
VDesai wrote:
Cosmic wrote:
VDesai wrote:Are we 100% sure they renounced Amare...I thought I read something last night that they didn't. It would make a lot of sense if the S&T'd Amare for Lee or maybe even Curry/Chandler. Actually if they S&T'd Amare for Curry/Chandler that would actually give us enough cap space for a Max/Near Max.

They had to renounce him to sign Frye and Warrick. They didn't have the space otherwise due to Amare's cap hold.


They haven't signed Warrick yet and can't officially sign him till Thursday yesterday. A verbal agreement doesn't mean they'd have to renounce Amare yet. We can go get a verbal from Lebron right now and we wouldn't immediately need to renounce Lee too make that happen. There's no logical reason to renounce someone till official signings can happen.

Well, they jumped the shark from that regard. But it's clear they would've probably taken back some contracts in a sign and trade, in most cases. Obviously, Phoenix was unwilling to do it, so I guess they just renounced early. Also, I don't know if anyone would've done a sign and trade for Amare. I think 6 years for Amare would've been risky for any team.

Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BlueSeats
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7/5/2010  10:27 PM
AnubisADL wrote:I think Amare will be solid for the year 1-3 and after that he will be albatross status.

Yes. Very worthwhile IF it lands us Wade (wont happen), Melo or Lebron; otherwise, it's Allan Houston, bid against ourselves, albatross all over again.

Not saying it's not worth the risk in this high-stakes gamble for something bigger, but in and of itself, I'd have never done it.

Cosmic
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7/5/2010  10:30 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think Amare will be solid for the year 1-3 and after that he will be albatross status.

Yes. Very worthwhile IF it lands us Wade (wont happen), Melo or Lebron; otherwise, it's Allan Houston, bid against ourselves, albatross all over again.

Not saying it's not worth the risk in this high-stakes gamble for something bigger, but in and of itself, I'd have never done it.

Had to try, no?

Not trying would have been foolish.

All we would have had was a chance to bash Jordan Hill for being the scrub he is....and then mulling over which hack to pick with the 8th or 9th picks in both 2011 and 2012.

Well, 100% of the time I'll pick what we did here: Put ourselves in position to land two max players.

We've done that, and now we're half way there.

Can't quite figure out if there's anything to be unhappy about all of this.

http://popcornmachine.net/ A must-use tool for NBA stat junkies!
BlueSeats
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7/5/2010  10:32 PM
Cosmic wrote:
BlueSeats wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think Amare will be solid for the year 1-3 and after that he will be albatross status.

Yes. Very worthwhile IF it lands us Wade (wont happen), Melo or Lebron; otherwise, it's Allan Houston, bid against ourselves, albatross all over again.

Not saying it's not worth the risk in this high-stakes gamble for something bigger, but in and of itself, I'd have never done it.

Had to try, no?

Not trying would have been foolish.

All we would have had was a chance to bash Jordan Hill for being the scrub he is....and then mulling over which hack to pick with the 8th or 9th picks in both 2011 and 2012.

Well, 100% of the time I'll pick what we did here: Put ourselves in position to land two max players.

We've done that, and now we're half way there.

Can't quite figure out if there's anything to be unhappy about all of this.


Sounds like you are agreeing with me while trying to sound like you disagree. Is this the stage before you pull out the straw men to attack?

nyk4ever
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7/5/2010  10:35 PM
BlueSeats wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:I think Amare will be solid for the year 1-3 and after that he will be albatross status.

Yes. Very worthwhile IF it lands us Wade (wont happen), Melo or Lebron; otherwise, it's Allan Houston, bid against ourselves, albatross all over again.

Not saying it's not worth the risk in this high-stakes gamble for something bigger, but in and of itself, I'd have never done it.

look who it is. what's up blue? hope everything is good with you.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
BlueSeats
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7/5/2010  10:37 PM
All good. Good seeing you too man. This is fun stuff.
Can someone post the Hollinger ESPN Insider story on Amare ?

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