BRIGGS wrote:He's got the same mentality he's just a great great player but I think MJ--atleast to me was the superior player and I'm not even counting that I still think Magic Johnson is the best player I ever watched

no jordan at all. jordan would not have sucked as bad as kobe last night. kobe's the closest thing to jordan, but he's still a long ways off.

KnicksSince88 wrote:All of us who saw both guys know this. The kids growing up now (say 20 and under) who think basketball started with the Shaq/Kobe dynasty and were about 8 years old or less when MJ won his last ring are the only ones who would argue. No one can watch the two guys and think Kobe is as good a player as MJ, particularly first 3-peat MJ prior to the baseball retirement. Kobe vs 2nd 3-peat MJ would be a lot closer, but still edge Jordan. I don't care if he wins 7 or 8 rings. We've already seen Kobe at his best, hes not going to get better, in fact hes gotten marginally worse, and the best of his best was never as good as Jordan

That said though hes one of the greatest ever, i liked his answer last night in the press conference in regards to Jordan, very respectful as always, said 90% of everything he does came from MJ (as if we didn't know this already). Its already well past the point of being annoying as hes now even patterning his championship celebrations after Jordan. But hey, he keeps winning titles so more power to him

LOL. I noticed that too. Kobe is the best player in basketball right now, and even with that being said, he is still about two levels below Jordan at his best and one level below Magic at his best.

TheGame wrote:

KnicksSince88 wrote:All of us who saw both guys know this. The kids growing up now (say 20 and under) who think basketball started with the Shaq/Kobe dynasty and were about 8 years old or less when MJ won his last ring are the only ones who would argue. No one can watch the two guys and think Kobe is as good a player as MJ, particularly first 3-peat MJ prior to the baseball retirement. Kobe vs 2nd 3-peat MJ would be a lot closer, but still edge Jordan. I don't care if he wins 7 or 8 rings. We've already seen Kobe at his best, hes not going to get better, in fact hes gotten marginally worse, and the best of his best was never as good as Jordan

That said though hes one of the greatest ever, i liked his answer last night in the press conference in regards to Jordan, very respectful as always, said 90% of everything he does came from MJ (as if we didn't know this already). Its already well past the point of being annoying as hes now even patterning his championship celebrations after Jordan. But hey, he keeps winning titles so more power to him

LOL. I noticed that too. Kobe is the best player in basketball right now, and even with that being said, he is still about two levels below Jordan at his best and one level below Magic at his best.

+3 on noticing his victory celebration being similar to Jordan.

I give him a lot of respect though, the guy is committed to winning and comes through. However, I don't think Jordan ever put in as poor of a performance in the first 3Q's of a game 7 (I could be wrong but I don't think so). Granted he was getting doubled and tripled and Ray Allen was locked down on him like crazy glue. Kobe has more weaknesses though and his personality is generally a little more prickly.

Watching Jordan was special, watching Kobe is pretty awesome but it doesn't have the same feel. I agree with BRIGGS - Magic was the best I have ever seen. Kobe will go down as one of the best ever but he wont be at the top. The competition isn't as fierce either although if the Celtics make it back next year against the Lakers that will be a pretty contested series.

Nalod wrote:JOrdan never had a bad game and got rebounds instead.

JOrdan never lost a game.

Jordan legend grows.

As said by Wilbon: "kobe does not have a signiture game winning moment".

Kobe is better than Magic. Magic only won with Kareem. Kobe won with Shaq and Pau Gasol. Pau is great, but not Kareem great or Shaq in prime great.

All that said, I'd agree MJ sits on a place by himself and kobe is there with Bird, Magic, West, Wilt, Kareem baylor, Mikan, Duncan, cousey, Russell...

THen there is Oscar (got the talent but not the bling) Hakeem, Rick Barry, Oscar, Shaq, Willis, Clyde, Unseld, Dr J, KG, Hayes, Pippen, Dumars, Isiah, Drexler, McHale, Walton, Havlichek, Moses Malone...........

These are the gods.

Lebron with no bling is there with Ewing, Barkley, Maravich, Stockton, Malone, Nash, Petit, Bing, Hawkins, Iverson, Mcadoo, Kidd, Gervin, Cowens, Haywood........

How many rings would it take to get Lebron into the "gods" catagory?

Jordan did have bad games. Everyone has bad games. They were much further and fewer between than Kobe's though, especially in big spots. Kobe's a 41% shooter for his career in 38 finals games. He's only hit 50% of his shots in 5 of those games. He just shot 40.4% in this series, 40.8% in their last series in 08 against Boston, blew the series against Detroit in 04 by getting erased by Tayshaun Prince. The thing is Jordan was so consistently great when the chips were down that its impossible to match. I never saw him have a brutal series. Even in the years they were losing to Detroit, he was still getting his every night and being efficient in the process, taking those Piston teams deep despite being severely undermanned

Maybe one day he writes the book and compares.

LIke I said, Jordan stands alone. Since88, I agree with you.

EwingsGlass wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He's got the same mentality he's just a great great player but I think MJ--atleast to me was the superior player and I'm not even counting that I still think Magic Johnson is the best player I ever watched

no jordan at all. jordan would not have sucked as bad as kobe last night. kobe's the closest thing to jordan, but he's still a long ways off.

Its hard to argue that Kobe is better than Jordan. Regarding last night though, I cannot recall Jordan facing a team of Boston's caliber and having to deal with double and triple teams to go with it. Kobe's teammates aren't as talented as Pippen was, but they bring far more size than Pippen did. Kobe was not getting the calls that Jordan would get... hell, he wasn't getting the calls that Durant gets. Last night wasn't his best showing, but he gritted it out.

I think you are overrating this Boston team just a bit to say MJ never played a team who was as good as them. They are a very good team, but most of their names are bigger than their games at this point. They aren't as good as their 08 version even with Rondo's maturation. Sure they have 3 HOFers. But which one of those guys was a HOFer in 2010? None of them. Theres no doubt in my mind the 2010 Celtics lose to each and every one of the Jordan title teams

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Duncan
5. Kobe

Im leaving LeBron out because its too early for him. I know some may disagree with Hakeem over Kobe, but if you give me the choice of the two to start a team Im taking the big man, most skilled big guy ive ever seen. Dominant defensive presence. If he had a better cast he would have won more rings. Forget just his dominance in the 90s and winning rings when MJ was gone. But Hakeem was a guy who as a 23 year old kid, going up against the 86 Celtics widely considered one of the best teams ever with arguably the best frontline ever, put up 25 and 12 with 3 blocks in the series against them and took it 6 games, no one else showed up or they may have won that one. He was amazing

Edit: Typo the first time, put Duncan ahead of Hakeem by accident. Hakeem at 3

EwingsGlass wrote:

KnicksSince88 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:He's got the same mentality he's just a great great player but I think MJ--atleast to me was the superior player and I'm not even counting that I still think Magic Johnson is the best player I ever watched

no jordan at all. jordan would not have sucked as bad as kobe last night. kobe's the closest thing to jordan, but he's still a long ways off.

Its hard to argue that Kobe is better than Jordan. Regarding last night though, I cannot recall Jordan facing a team of Boston's caliber and having to deal with double and triple teams to go with it. Kobe's teammates aren't as talented as Pippen was, but they bring far more size than Pippen did. Kobe was not getting the calls that Jordan would get... hell, he wasn't getting the calls that Durant gets. Last night wasn't his best showing, but he gritted it out.

I think you are overrating this Boston team just a bit to say MJ never played a team who was as good as them. They are a very good team, but most of their names are bigger than their games at this point. They aren't as good as their 08 version even with Rondo's maturation. Sure they have 3 HOFers. But which one of those guys was a HOFer in 2010? None of them. Theres no doubt in my mind the 2010 Celtics lose to each and every one of the Jordan title teams

I don't think I said that this Celtics would beat Jordan's Bulls, but if we are wagering, the first 3 years I call 50/50, the last threepeat, I take Jordan's Bulls each time. Those last three years that Michael had Pippen, Rodman and Kukoc, they were unstoppable. What I am trying to say is that the competitiveness of the top 5 or 6 teams in the NBA is at a much higher level than it was then. Both Kobe's Laker's and these Celts would trounce Clyde's Blazers, the Kemp/Payton Sonics and the Malone/Stockton Jazz also. Now, you put a healthier Kobe/Pau/Bynum/Artest/Odom Laker's against the Jordan/Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc Bulls and I think you have a war.

Ultimately, I am saying that Kobe not looking as phenomenal against these Celts is because they are at a higher level (and a much stronger defensive team) than anyone Jordan faced in the finals.

I really completely disagree with that. I think the perception that the competitiveness/greatness with the top 5-6 is much greater than the 90s comes from the fact that the Bulls were so dominant it makes everyone else look bad. Plenty of really good teams who were fully capable of winning titles didn't because they ran into Jordan. I completely disagree that these Lakers and Celtics would trounce those Jazz teams. I mean cmon now. The better version of the Celts in 2008 went 7 games against a 36 win Hawk team, last years Lakers went 7 games against the Rockets without Yao and Tracy, and Malone and Stockton couldn't give them a series? Or the Barkley/KJ Suns? I just very very strongly disagree, basically as much as humanly possible. The Jazz in 98 before ultimately losing to the Bulls in the finals SWEPT the Shaq led Lakers in the Western Finals, and while Kobe was very young he was an all star that year and a factor. I doubt those Jazz teams would beat the Shaq/Kobe Laker teams from a couple years later when Kobe grew a little more and Phil got there, but I do think they would be able to play with this Laker group.