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An Amare-Lee frontcourt will never win a title IMHO
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TMS
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3/27/2010  5:29 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=mc-afterthebuzzer032610&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

As Stoudemire’s game grows, so does his cost
Marc J. Spears

By Marc J. Spears, Yahoo! Sports Mar 26, 3:03 pm EDT

OAKLAND, Calif. – Amar’e Stoudemire(notes) vaulted into the air, stretched his right arm above his head and Anthony Tolliver(notes) knew his punishment was coming. In an instant, Stoudemire was jamming the ball through the rim, nearly taking Tolliver’s scalp with it. Even the Golden State Warriors’ fans saluted the display of ferocity, and Stoudemire strutted toward the crowd and popped the front of his jersey, letting everyone know he still belonged to the Phoenix Suns.

Suns owner Robert Sarver sat nearby, and it wasn’t a stretch to wonder whether the vicious dunk also contained a message for Stoudemire’s employer.
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As Stoudemire later told Yahoo! Sports, “I’m getting more expensive by the game.”

Few around the NBA will argue that claim. Over the past six weeks, Stoudemire has reestablished himself as one of the game’s most dominating forwards – a label that will only benefit his bottom line should he likely decide to join this summer’s free-agent market.

Stoudemire’s spike in production began on the eve of the trade deadline, a tumultuous period that saw the Suns field offers for him for more than a month than ultimately decide to keep him. In the past 17 games, Stoudemire has averaged 28.1 points, and his numbers have continued to climb this month: In 10 games in March, he’s averaging 29.8 points and 9.8 rebounds.

Stoudemire shrugs off the timing of his improvement as a coincidence. Slowed by knee and eye surgeries in recent seasons, his body now feels right. The addition of 7-foot center Robin Lopez(notes) into the starting lineup has also allowed Stoudemire to move to his more natural position.

“I’m really getting acclimated, I’m really getting comfortable with the system,” Stoudemire said. “I’ve gotten back in top shape. All of that plays a factor. I’m really focused on being a complete player and putting everything into motion that I’ve been working on.

“It has nothing to do with the trades, trade talk or rumors. Around that time is when I stepped my game up, but it has nothing to do with that at all.”

As much as anything, Suns guard Steve Nash(notes) thinks Stoudemire has sharpened his focus and improved how he sees the game.

“In the past, I don’t think you always knew what you were going to get from him on isolations, post-ups and mid-post,” Nash said. “It could be great and some days you never knew. He’s really turned the corner for his feel for the game. When you throw the ball in there, I have total confidence that he’s going to read the defense and get to a spot where he is going to get a shot or foul or make a play.

“That’s a big improvement in his game. We always knew he could do amazing things on the basketball court, but he’s made that step mentally.”

Said Sarver: “He’s playing with tremendous desire and just all-around dominance.”

That Stoudemire is still playing for the Suns comes as a surprise. Once the two sides couldn’t agree on a contract extension, Phoenix officials made no secret of the fact they were weighing trade offers for Stoudemire. The Suns were deep in talks with the Cleveland Cavaliers and Miami Heat, but didn’t strike a deal. Even in the final hours before the deadline, league sources said the Suns made a push to try to send Stoudemire to the Houston Rockets.

“It never rattled me,” Stoudemire said. “Nothing ever has, even since high school days. I’ve always been the type to persevere. That’s just my natural character. It never bothered me and it never will. It’s just the way I’m built.”

Sarver and Suns president Steve Kerr tried to smooth over any lingering tension by having dinner with Stoudemire after the trade deadline had passed.

“We just talked about the team, where he’s going and what he thought was important in terms of his role with the team,” Sarver said. “I talked a little bit about the team. It wasn’t so much about his contract.”

Stoudemire could choose to exercise a $17 million option to stay with the Suns for next season. But though he has repeatedly flip-flopped when publicly discussing his intentions, it seems unlikely that he’d pass up the opportunity to become a free agent this summer and cash in on his tremendous play.

“Listen, I’ve always elevated my game. I’ve always been one to improve,” Stoudemire said. “If I continue to remain healthy, you’ll see it again next year and the season after that. I’m always going to try to improve. I’m not one of those guys who plays hard during a contract year than shuts it down. I take my basketball career very serious. I look to be a future Hall of Famer one of these days.”

The question now: Will Stoudemire choose to play elsewhere next season? He’s comfortable living in Phoenix where he has business and charitable interests. The Suns can give him a bigger contract than any other suitor and there’s this: The Suns are winning. Once thought to be a reach to make the playoffs, they’re now in position to climb all the way to second in the Western Conference.

“There’s nothing we can do now, but at the end of the day life is going to be pretty good for Amar’e Stoudemire,” Sarver said. “He’s playing great and he has a great career ahead of him.”

Still, Stoudemire hasn’t forgotten the Suns didn’t offer him a max extension, and there’s no guarantee how much they’ll even improve an offer this summer. He also remembers how the Suns messed up an opportunity to re-sign Joe Johnson(notes) five years ago. If the Heat come calling with a big contract, Stoudemire, who is a Florida native, could welcome the chance to play alongside Dwyane Wade(notes).

When asked if the Suns should have already signed him, Stoudemire laughed.

“We’re going to wait and see,” he said. “We’ll see how it plays out.

“This summer, I’m going to make a serious decision. …I’m going to make a business decision.”

As Stoudemire knows well, the cost of doing business has gone up.


IMO even if we were to target Amare w/a max contract this summer, we should still look to bring in a legitimate 5 to play alongside him so he can stay at his natural spot... i know he played the 5 in MDA's system before but we have to think of matchups in postseason play... most championship teams historically have a C who provides shotblocking & defense in the middle... i personally don't think this team would ever win a title with a weak defensive frontcourt of Amare & David Lee.

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TMS
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3/27/2010  5:33 PM
btw, the same would hold true if we extended Lee this summer... we still need to match him up with a defensive shotblocking C to be successful IMO... those 2 guys together will not be the ideal situation for either of them or for this franchise.
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sidsanders
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3/27/2010  5:37 PM
for him --> “I’m getting more expensive by the game.”, its fine. as a fan, i dont like that. stats <> elite, winning ***should***.

the max salary has brought the elite salary levels down to lower level guys and that makes things murky and painful if you get the wrong guy. this is why its lbj and/or wade from my view. if you can swing a mega trade for kd or maybe 1 of the other top of the line pg's, thats cool too.

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TMS
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3/27/2010  5:43 PM
sidsanders wrote:for him --> “I’m getting more expensive by the game.”, its fine. as a fan, i dont like that. stats <> elite, winning ***should***.

the max salary has brought the elite salary levels down to lower level guys and that makes things murky and painful if you get the wrong guy. this is why its lbj and/or wade from my view. if you can swing a mega trade for kd or maybe 1 of the other top of the line pg's, thats cool too.

do we have the assets to land someone like Durant tho? i don't see it... it would take a package of Gallo, Wilson & D Lee for the Thunder to even begin to consider it & even then i dunno if that would be enough to land him... & then what would we have left over for him to play with?

i agree w/u on Amare's comment, that's not really what u wanna hear from a guy in his contract year, but like he pointed out he's put up big numbers every year he's been in the league pretty much not just in contract years.

in any case, whether we go after Bosh, Amare or Lee this summer, i think we need to target a defensive shotblocking C to play alongside them... i'm sick of playing guys out of position & i'm sick of guys walking into the lane for easy layups every game against us... we need an intimidator in the paint most of all right now.

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sidsanders
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3/27/2010  5:53 PM
TMS wrote:
sidsanders wrote:for him --> “I’m getting more expensive by the game.”, its fine. as a fan, i dont like that. stats <> elite, winning ***should***.

the max salary has brought the elite salary levels down to lower level guys and that makes things murky and painful if you get the wrong guy. this is why its lbj and/or wade from my view. if you can swing a mega trade for kd or maybe 1 of the other top of the line pg's, thats cool too.

do we have the assets to land someone like Durant tho? i don't see it... it would take a package of Gallo, Wilson & D Lee for the Thunder to even begin to consider it & even then i dunno if that would be enough to land him... & then what would we have left over for him to play with?

i agree w/u on Amare's comment, that's not really what u wanna hear from a guy in his contract year, but like he pointed out he's put up big numbers every year he's been in the league pretty much not just in contract years.

in any case, whether we go after Bosh, Amare or Lee this summer, i think we need to target a defensive shotblocking C to play alongside them... i'm sick of playing guys out of position & i'm sick of guys walking into the lane for easy layups every game against us... we need an intimidator in the paint most of all right now.

the way things look now, im preparing to be disappointed... too many stories making it unfun: joe+lee+filler if the lbj/wade stuff fails. who knows whats what now... i hope the FO has this right.

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Cosmic
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3/27/2010  6:10 PM
Lee looked like a nobody alongside Zach. I have no doubt the same would be true alongside Amare. Yet Lee has grown into a veteran so you might see two players drag each other's stats down.

If Lee isn't putting up big numbers he's not a good player.


I think Bosh would be the better compliment to Lee in the front court if this is the direction we go.

Even so someone's stats are taking a hit.

This is why most successful front courts have the 1 dominant player and the one role player who could be dominant but is just fine being that supportive role player.


Another question to ask is.... couldn't David Lee be that second star for LeBron James? Throw in Gallo and Chandler and Douglas? Then look to 2011 to complete the roster?

I don't think Donnie is thinking about having to pair up 2 max players. He might be thinking Lee at 10-12M > Bosh or Amare at MAX money.

Lee
Gallo
LeBron
Chandler
Douglas

....and then look to 2011 to add another big piece.

Signing LeBron and Lee leave us with what... 6M to work with if we chose? Would an S&T of Manu for Chandler work for SA? (Manu 8M = Knicks 6M cap+Chandler).

????

Lee
Gallo
LeBron
Manu
Douglas

...and again look towards 2011 for another big piece once Curry's fat ass is gone from the cap?

Many options here. But one shouldn't be to pair Lee with Bosh or Amare. It should be: Lee OR Bosh OR Amare I think.

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TMS
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3/27/2010  7:03 PM
i agree, i think it should be Bosh OR Amare OR Lee, not 2 of those 3... we need to make sure to have some kind of defensive presence in the paint if we're thinking of being a contending team next year... if we have to get one in a trade using our cap space, that's what we should look to do... someone like Okafor if New Orleans is looking to shed his contract would be 1 possible option to pair up with whoever we sign this summer.
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loweyecue
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3/27/2010  7:06 PM
Luis Scola and Manu are he type of guys I would target.
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TMS
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3/27/2010  7:13 PM
loweyecue wrote:Luis Scola and Manu are he type of guys I would target.

i dunno whether you meant that as a dig to me but i would take both those guys over Amare or Lee by themselves anyday of the week.

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loweyecue
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3/27/2010  7:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/27/2010  7:57 PM
TMS wrote:
loweyecue wrote:Luis Scola and Manu are he type of guys I would target.

i dunno whether you meant that as a dig to me but i would take both those guys over Amare or Lee by themselves anyday of the week.

Nope completely serious about them. I would take them in a heartbeat. I totally love both those guys. I am not a big Lee fan as you know and I am kind of on the fence about Amare. Amare is a dominant player, but I don't see him as someone who can carry a team. And his defense is still pretty weak, I kinda like Bosh better than Amare. Neither of them is worth the max, they'll both probably end up getting it.

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TMS
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3/28/2010  2:30 AM
at his best i think Amare is better than Bosh, but that health history has to concern you... right now whatever it takes to get Lebron in NY i'm down with... if we have to sign Bosh, Amare, Lee, Joe Johnson or whoever else, i really don't care, as long as Lebron is wearing the orange & blue next year.
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3/28/2010  3:25 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/28/2010  3:31 AM
I think a Lee/Amare frontcourt with a top flight guard is good enough to contend for a championship. I mean, Lee/Amare + Gallo/another outside shooter would be lethal. That team doesn't really need a playmaker because everyone to a certain extent has the ability to create and space
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3/28/2010  4:21 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:I think a Lee/Amare frontcourt with a top flight guard is good enough to contend for a championship. I mean, Lee/Amare + Gallo/another outside shooter would be lethal. That team doesn't really need a playmaker because everyone to a certain extent has the ability to create and space

40 and 20 a night............... have mercy on this Scola/Manu talk as well. Lee shats on Scola and Manu is 33 years old.

I would rather have Bosh though, I believe his all around game fits with Mustachio.

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3/28/2010  7:03 AM
TMS wrote:at his best i think Amare is better than Bosh, but that health history has to concern you... right now whatever it takes to get Lebron in NY i'm down with... if we have to sign Bosh, Amare, Lee, Joe Johnson or whoever else, i really don't care, as long as Lebron is wearing the orange & blue next year.

Bosh also has injury problems of his own and it seems every season he gets something and then it nags for the rest of the year.


2004-01-09 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2004-01-11 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2004-01-14 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2004-01-15 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2004-02-04 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained left ankle (DNP)
2004-02-06 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained left ankle (DNP)
2004-02-08 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained left ankle (DNP)
2005-03-18 Raptors Chris Bosh bruised lower back (DNP)
2006-03-28 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained left thumb (out indefinitely)
2006-03-29 Raptors Chris Bosh placed on IL with sprained left thumb
2006-12-10 Raptors Chris Bosh placed on IL with bruised left knee
2007-01-03 Raptors Chris Bosh activated from IL
2007-11-30 Raptors Chris Bosh placed on IL with strained groin
2007-12-09 Raptors Chris Bosh activated from IL
2008-03-02 Raptors Chris Bosh placed on IL with sore right knee
2008-03-19 Raptors Chris Bosh activated from IL
2009-02-06 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2009-02-07 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2009-02-10 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2009-02-11 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2009-02-18 Raptors Chris Bosh sprained right knee (DNP)
2010-02-18 Raptors Chris Bosh left ankle injury (DTD)
2010-02-19 Raptors Chris Bosh placed on IL with sprained left ankle
2010-03-07 Raptors Chris Bosh activated from IL


Yet he is more durable than Amare. Of course, Mike will lobby for Amare, and I think Amare is far more available than Bosh. But we also must consider that Wade is trying to recruit both to join him in Miami (or godforbid Chicago).

2003-06-13 Suns Amare Stoudemire surgery on right foot to repair bunion
2003-12-06 Suns Amare Stoudemire placed on IL with sprained left ankle
2004-01-09 Suns Amare Stoudemire activated from IL
2004-01-19 Suns Amare Stoudemire sprained ankle (DNP)
2004-01-21 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-01-23 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-01-25 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle & toe (DNP)
2004-01-27 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-01-28 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-01-30 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-01-31 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2004-02-02 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left ankle (DNP)
2005-03-28 Suns Amare Stoudemire left ankle inflammation (DNP)
2005-03-30 Suns Amare Stoudemire left ankle inflammation (DNP)
2005-10-07 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left knee (missed practice)
2005-10-10 Suns Amare Stoudemire microfracture surgery on left knee (out 4 months)
2005-10-31 Suns Amare Stoudemire placed on IL with surgery on left knee
2006-03-23 Suns Amare Stoudemire activated from IL
2006-03-28 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left knee (DNP)
2006-03-30 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left knee (DNP)
2006-03-31 Suns Amare Stoudemire sore left knee (DNP)
2006-04-02 Suns Amare Stoudemire knee injury (DNP)
2006-04-05 Suns Amare Stoudemire surgery on right knee to remove debris (DNP) (out for season)
2006-04-07 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-09 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-11 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-13 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-14 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-16 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-17 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-19 Suns Amare Stoudemire injured right knee (DNP)
2006-04-23 Suns Amare Stoudemire placed on IL
2007-10-02 Suns Amare Stoudemire surgery on right knee to remove loose particles (out 2-3 weeks)
2007-11-04 Suns Amare Stoudemire placed on IL recovering from surgery on right knee
2007-11-09 Suns Amare Stoudemire activated from IL
2008-10-02 Suns Amare Stoudemire partially torn right iris (DTD)
2009-02-20 Suns Amare Stoudemire placed on IL recovering from surgery on right eye to repair partially detached retina
2009-07-10 Suns Amare Stoudemire surgery on eye (out indefinitely)

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arkrud
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3/28/2010  11:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 3/28/2010  11:22 AM
How many more other combinations of players will not win a title? Most of them.
We are just started building new team form pile of garbage.
It will be so many more mistakes along the road, that sign or not sigh Lee or Amare will be the smallest piece to remember.
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TMS
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3/28/2010  4:10 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:I think a Lee/Amare frontcourt with a top flight guard is good enough to contend for a championship. I mean, Lee/Amare + Gallo/another outside shooter would be lethal. That team doesn't really need a playmaker because everyone to a certain extent has the ability to create and space

can u name me the last championship team with as bad a defensive frontcourt as that?

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TMS
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3/28/2010  4:51 PM
Anji wrote:have mercy on this Scola/Manu talk as well. Lee shats on Scola and Manu is 33 years old.

Scola is playing in a much more competitive & big man saturated Western Conference playing next to a 6'6" C as his running mate & his team is contending for a playoff spot... compare his per 48 statline to D Lee's this year & there really is not much drop off at all between the 2 players in any category... one of them will cost us at least $12 million per season to re-sign over 6 years... the other will cost about half that in my estimation.

u can say all you like how Lee sheits all over Scola but Scola has shat all over plenty of quality bigmen in the NBA this season including Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan, Antonio McDyess, Jeff Green, Brook Lopez & Andrew Bogut, some of whom have shat all over Lee in head to head matchups... he's also more than held his own against guys like Chris Bosh, Dirk Nowitzki, Nene, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett & Al Jefferson to name just a few, all while being routinely out sized at his position just like D Lee's been all year... & the first time the Knicks played the Rockets Scola put up 23 & 7 on Lee in only 26 minutes while it took Lee 45 minutes to put up his 26 & 12, so i wouldn't exactly say he crapped all over him that day.

go ahead & minimalize Scola's talent all u want, just cuz the dude's foreign don't make him soft & don't make him a bad player... this guy is damn good & IMO would be well worth the lesser investment & make him a better value than signing David Lee to an overpaid contract for the same reasons some of you prefer Lee over Chris Bosh... stats wise Lee maybe offensively more consistent but he also plays on a much crappier team where he is the main focus of the offense & averages 2 more shot attempts with 5 more minutes played per game, while Scola has shared scoring duties in the frontcourt for most of the season with Carl Landry & been the 2nd or 3rd scoring option for most of the season.

as for Manu, i don't care how old he is, i bet he's got more gasoline left in his tank to play at a high level than most guys 4 years younger than he is... if you've watched this guy play at all you can see he go balls out on both ends of the floor every night & brings all the leadership & character intangibles that MDA seems to be looking for... you'd be an absolute fool to take David Lee over Scola & Manu if u ask me.

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loweyecue
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3/28/2010  11:38 PM
The bias that most fans have against european players is really annoying. Scola is better than anyone on our roster as is a 33 year old Manu.
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3/28/2010  11:43 PM
loweyecue wrote:The bias that most fans have against european players is really annoying. Scola is better than anyone on our roster as is a 33 year old Manu.

I dont think it is anything to do with them being European they are just old. Scola will likely be resigned and Manu cant stay healthy.

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3/28/2010  11:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/28/2010  11:51 PM
AnubisADL wrote:
loweyecue wrote:The bias that most fans have against european players is really annoying. Scola is better than anyone on our roster as is a 33 year old Manu.

I dont think it is anything to do with them being European they are just old. Scola will likely be resigned and Manu cant stay healthy.

dude, Scola's 29 & Manu at 33 has more energy & skill than plenty of 20 something's who are starting for NBA teams right now.

anyway, they're Argentinian but i get low's point... foreign players are often regarded as soft & inferior to US players & that's just not the case w/these 2 guys... Manu has proven himself in the NBA time & time again & Scola hasn't missed a single game in his 3 year NBA career.

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An Amare-Lee frontcourt will never win a title IMHO

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