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Let me speak my piece--why the knicks got burned
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BRIGGS
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1/7/2004  2:24 AM
When I heard this trade go down at first--like everyone else was happy to hear the name Marbury

as the deal became clearer, I thought we paid to much and i will give a prime example later

as i thought about what we have left and who we brought in, it didnt make sense to me because we gave up EVERY asset we essentially have for 1 player who doesnt fit

Marbury is a thoroughbred brought in to play with donkeys.

that is why frank williams played well and shouldve been allowed to continue to play lead PG. and this is coming from a guy who didnt believe FW was an NBA talent for a long time. but before this trade went down i said we HAVE to give FW a 20 game run to see if he can keep his stellar play up. he will NEVER EVER get that chance with the knicks now. frank williams fit because he ran the club at the same pace the other players moved at, yet had the ability to get into the lane. he was a good chemistry player

When Dallas traded for Jamison clealry a guy just as talented as marbury---they gave up NOTHING more than mostly ending contracts and took on fortson. in fact they forced GS into giving up their 1st round pick jerri welsch--the only good player they got was NVE who has been hurt is older and hasnt played very well

when we took on marbury and hardaway-we took on 130 MILLION dollars worth of FUTURE salary[not this year] and gave back 13mm eilsey has 2 yeasr and a team option after this year. we took on 114 MILLION lampe 800k]$$$$$$ gave them additional money and got them under the cap this year

this is the trade
we gave up
Mcdyess
ward
vujonic
Lampe
what could be emeka ok4 in this years draft
and another solid player in 2006
stunted the growth of frank willimas
made our bench worse
for stephon marbury who doesnt fit this team for christ sake a fair deal wouldve been Shawn Marion and Marbury--thats a fair deal for everything we gave up.

we shot our entire load here we are stuck with our OLD slower frontline without mcdyess and we WILL miss Wards intangibles off the bench

this is still a slow overpaid jump shooting team with an engine that doesnt fit the car.
RIP Crushalot😞
AUTOADVERT
gunsnewing
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1/7/2004  2:26 AM
we would've never been bad enough to get a top pick.
Rich
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1/7/2004  2:43 AM
A few points:

1) I don't see Jamison as being as talented as Marbury. Marbury was traded for Kidd. Jamison was traded for less for a reason: he's not as good. That's how the market operates.

2) Isiah isn't done. He may get Miles and another PF. It's premature to assess his fit with the team.

3) In any case, Marbury is talented enough, and may be finally mature enough, to adapt his game to the personnel around him.

4) No matter how much some of us want to rebuild, Dolan is not going to let it happen. That was a condition of Isiah getting the job.

5) My problem with the trade is that the first round pick this year should have been protected to at least three.
technomaster
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1/7/2004  3:04 AM
In addition--- a top pick doesn't guarantee you success. You can name quite a number of teams that have been bad for ages, yet can't seem to get out of the gutter in spite of having top 5 draft picks every year.

There seems to be this sentiment that teams need to build from within through the draft. While this might work in baseball, this is probably not the case in the NBA, where each of the 12 spots on the roster are valuable--- projects are relegated to the IR spots.

Let's take a look around the top teams. Take a look at the top 7 players in their rotations. Are there any top teams with more than 2 players they drafted in their rotations?

Sacto: Only Peja... and arguably Wallace.
Lakers: Kobe, Fisher.
Indiana: Miller, Tinsley, Harrington (tho their top 2 guns O'Neal & Artest came via trade)
Detroit: Prince...
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
New Jersey: K-Mart, Collins, Kittles, Jefferson (4 starters!)- does Scalabrine count?

I'd say the Nets are the exceptions to the rule; technically Jefferson/Collins came via trade--- though they did just sign Eddie Griffin :)

The Knicks have traditionally build themselves through the big trade. We have #2 overall pick KVH (a player the Nets technically traded for on draft night), #4 overall in Marbury, #4 overall in Mutombo, #11 overall in Houston, I believe #11 in Thomas. Not to mention #3 overall in Penny Hardaway, #9 overall in Sweetney, #12 overall in Doleac.

Oh, well, we have our fair share of draft "steals" on our roster: Frank Williams #25, Othella Harrington #30, Moochie Norris #33, Shandon Anderson #54

So in a way, yes, the Knicks have built themselves from the draft. We have 8 lottery picks, 1 late first rounder, and 3 "hard working" 2nd round picks.

BTW, technically Frank Williams was drafted by the Nuggets, so we have exactly *ONE* homegrown Knick (Sweetney baby!)


[Edited by - technomaster on 01/07/2004 18:11:33]
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
gunsnewing
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1/7/2004  3:07 AM
"Let's take a look around the top teams. Take a look at the top 7 players in their rotations. Are there any top teams with more than 2 players they drafted in their rotations?"

Excellent point.
technomaster
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1/7/2004  3:13 AM
My bad, I believe the Pistons also drafted Okur.
“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Rich
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1/7/2004  3:37 AM
The Lakers traded Divac for Kobe's draft rights.
playa2
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1/7/2004  6:55 AM
Briggs I agree about the one thing Frank played the point position that was on the same speed as his teamates, He is the guy who could keep chemistry in tack. Mcdyess if he would have played last night wouldn't have allowed boozer to destory us in the paint last night, dice is stronger than that!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/7/2004  8:00 AM
Posted by technomaster:

In addition--- a top pick doesn't guarantee you success. You can name quite a number of teams that have been bad for ages, yet can't seem to get out of the gutter in spite of having top 5 draft picks every year.

There seems to be this sentiment that teams need to build from within through the draft. While this might work in baseball, this is probably not the case in the NBA, where each of the 12 spots on the roster are valuable--- projects are relegated to the IR spots.

Let's take a look around the top teams. Take a look at the top 7 players in their rotations. Are there any top teams with more than 2 players they drafted in their rotations?

Sacto: Only Peja... and arguably Wallace.
Lakers: Kobe, Fisher.
Indiana: Miller, Tinsley, Harrington (tho their top 2 guns O'Neal & Artest came via trade)
Detroit: Prince...
San Antonio: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
New Jersey: K-Mart, Collins, Kittles, Jefferson (4 starters!)- does Scalabrine count?

I'd say the Nets are the exceptions to the rule; technically Jefferson/Collins came via trade--- though they did just sign Eddie Griffin :)

The Knicks have traditionally build themselves through the big trade. We have #2 overall pick KVH (a player the Nets technically traded for on draft night), #4 overall in Marbury, #4 overall in Mutombo, #11 overall in Houston, I believe #11 in Thomas. Not to mention #3 overall in Penny Hardaway, #9 overall in Sweetney, #12 overall in Doleac.

Oh, well, we have our fair share of draft "steals" on our roster: Frank Williams #25, Othella Harrington #30, Moochie Norris #33, Shandon Anderson #54

So in a way, yes, the Knicks have built themselves from the draft. We have 8 lottery picks, 1 late first rounder, and 3 "hard working" 2nd round picks.

BTW, technically Frank Williams was drafted by the Nuggets, so we have exactly ZERO homegrown Knicks.

Good Counter-point, Technomaster. You countered Briggs' criticism of the trade with marvelous accuracy.

The only misstep is that you said we have zero homegrown players, when Sweetney fits that category.

Rich- Good counter about Jamison too.

You two dissected Briggs' criticism completely.

[Edited by - HARDCOREKNICKSFAN on 01/07/2004 08:02:10]
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
ko
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1/7/2004  9:25 AM
The knicks Just made money ! The prices of everything was going up anyway. Now they gonna sell a whole lot more!

Marbury is a Superstar Guard With The ball!
Very important!

His poster overlooking 125 Always seemed a little prophetic to me!

Only Shaq or TD or KJ or KJ or KB could have matched what the knicks did basketball wise. None could match the bank!

Make no mistake about it, The Realest knick fans know what just happened here!


However, The rest of the knicks did look like donkeys! And thats a Problem.

H20 was in the fridge. And that could have been the difference But we need more horses.

And Stephon has to pick his spots. Change speeds.

Ofcourse, we need the right coach to bring it all together.

Because I've thought about Chaney and his coaching Style. And the only thing I could figure is, HE MUST BE GETTING HIGH!
Silverfuel
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1/7/2004  9:32 AM
Eisley is better than Stephon Marbury and I am very pissed about this trade. DOnt you guys see he Chemistry we had with Frank starting and Eisley playing 3rd. We blew out Miami 2wice!! If we dont blow out every team in every other game then this trade is a disaster. Lampe is larry bird + Dirk Nowitzki!! and who trades the next 2 draft pics! We were sure to get the #1 pick this year! We could've drafted Pavel!

Damm! What a terrible move. This team si going to miss Eisley!
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Snowman
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Iceland
1/7/2004  9:42 AM
If we lose our next 2 games, look for ZEKE to take over coaching the rest of the season until next year when DOC takes over !!!!
What does DICK CHANEY & DON CHANEY have in common ?? They both accidentally fell into a job they don't deserve & really suck at doing it !!!! Both need to be fired !!!
playa2
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1/7/2004  9:57 AM
Yea briggs I noticed the postas left your point alone about Frank playing at a speed that matches our current roster speed went right over their heads. Chemistry is the only thing lacking now, but I do believe we wil miss Mcdyess...KT is not strong enough. We must beat up the Rockets on Thursday no EXCUSES!!!!!
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/7/2004  9:59 AM
Yeah Playa, I know you wanna see ya boy JVG get slapped up on Thursday. You just might get your wish.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
playa2
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1/7/2004  10:11 AM
Chemistry is lacking with Marbury , Frank had it and his injury has put the knicks back . Marbury should start but he needs to see what speed Frank plays with this roster and do so himself.
JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
gunsnewing
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1/7/2004  10:31 AM
Posted by Silverfuel:

Eisley is better than Stephon Marbury and I am very pissed about this trade. DOnt you guys see he Chemistry we had with Frank starting and Eisley playing 3rd. We blew out Miami 2wice!! If we dont blow out every team in every other game then this trade is a disaster. Lampe is larry bird + Dirk Nowitzki!! and who trades the next 2 draft pics! We were sure to get the #1 pick this year! We could've drafted Pavel!

Damm! What a terrible move. This team si going to miss Eisley!

ROFL!!!!!
knickgeek
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1/7/2004  12:42 PM
This can be a good team with the guys we have and even better if Isiah is able to pull off another trade.

But chemistry is an issue. This is a whole new team and these guys have not played together much. It can take a while for this thing to gel and the Knicks don't have a whole lot of time if they're going to make the playoffs this year (let's face it, that seems to be the goal for now.)

I think the players are in shock and feeling uncertain - who will be traded next? I know they are all professionals but that seems to be affecting them. Houston in particular seemed very out of it and I have to think it was because he lost his buddy Ward. The lack of chemistry really hurt on the defensive end.

Interestingly, Marbury and Van Horn appeared to play well together in spite of everything, probably because they played together on the Nets.

One last point: Isiah is a tricky guy. If there's another trade coming, it's probably not the one you expect. For example, it might be Houston who gets shipped out, or it might be Artest who is brought in.
OasisBU
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1/7/2004  12:45 PM
Personally, I dont see another trade coming - but maybe Thomas is just good at hiding it. I dont want to get my hopes up for Sheed or a player of that calibur but if it happened I would be pretty happy.
"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe you just SUCK." Kenny Powers
knickgeek
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1/7/2004  12:52 PM
If there are no more trades coming he should signal that to the palyers. It's one thing to motivate them by trading a Weatherspoon, but after this trade they don't know who is going next or who they'll be playing with tomorrow. It could have a negative effect on team morale.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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1/7/2004  12:55 PM
I think another trade is coming-definitely. Thing is, no one could possibly predict who's coming and going. I have faith in the move, whatever it happens to be.
Another season, and more adversity to persevere through. We will get the job done, even BETTER than last year. GO KNICKS!
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