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Clearing up draft pick talk.
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Panos
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2/17/2010  9:36 AM
I'm seeing on various threads statements to the effect that if we get a draft pick from Boston
it would offset swapping our 2011, and trading outright our 2012 draft pick.

This is not really true.
The Celtics at the moment are a top caliber team in the league.
The Knicks stink. We're talking about two vastly different values.

The effect of owning YOUR OWN draft pick is like having an insurance policy against
your own suckitude. As we see this year. If we had had our own pick, there would
be *some* upside to the season, some payoff. Having the pick from another team is great,
but likely does not compensate for loss of your own, unless they are horrible too,
which the Celtics are not. Even if they are old, there is no guarantee they will get bad
soon, as they may be able to retool on the fly and even if they slide to the middle of the pack,
a #16 pick in the draft, is VERY different from a #5, should the worst happen, and we continue
to suck.

In my opinion, it really could come back to haunt us by not owning our own picks for 3 yrs in a row: 2010-2012.
But that's just me.
AUTOADVERT
Cosmic
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2/17/2010  9:40 AM
McGrady Trade: 2012 protected 1st rounder, a right to swap 2011 picks, Jordan Hill.

Reality: By 2012 this team is going to be good, it will be a #20 pick or so.
Reality: Houston will be no better than us next year. They'll be tearing it down next season, we'll be building up. We stand a chance to be better or equal. The swap would be rendered meaningless.
Reality: Jordan Hill is not a draft pick. He is a player now. A disappointing player. It happens. But he is not an outgoing draft pick.

Probable Result: The Knicks send a 2012 #20 or so pick to Houston.


====

Nate Robinson trade: We want a #1 from Boston or LA.

Result: This pick could be equal to our 2012 ougoing pick.

End Result: You don't build a team around Jordan Hill and the 2012 pick - when you have the chance to build a team around two of Bosh, Bron, Wade, Amare - or three of Boozer, Joe Johnson, others. To try to do the prior immediately ensures FAILURE.

You take this risk with these trades and you applaud it.


Yet, if you guys want to say "We're sending THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON!" Then I can't stop you.

It's incorrect though.

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Panos
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2/17/2010  9:42 AM
It could play out that way.
Or maybe not.
In the end, yes, we could be sending "THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON".
We won't know until 2012.
sebstar
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2/17/2010  9:53 AM
Some of ya'll need to be easy on the '2012 pick wont matter because we'll be good by then' talk.

That was the EXACT same thinking behind the Eddy Curry deal.

My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
WindsorPl
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2/17/2010  9:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/17/2010  9:58 AM
Cosmic wrote:McGrady Trade: 2012 protected 1st rounder, a right to swap 2011 picks, Jordan Hill.

Reality: By 2012 this team is going to be good, it will be a #20 pick or so.
Reality: Houston will be no better than us next year. They'll be tearing it down next season, we'll be building up. We stand a chance to be better or equal. The swap would be rendered meaningless.
Reality: Jordan Hill is not a draft pick. He is a player now. A disappointing player. It happens. But he is not an outgoing draft pick.

Probable Result: The Knicks send a 2012 #20 or so pick to Houston.


====

Nate Robinson trade: We want a #1 from Boston or LA.

Result: This pick could be equal to our 2012 ougoing pick.

End Result: You don't build a team around Jordan Hill and the 2012 pick - when you have the chance to build a team around two of Bosh, Bron, Wade, Amare - or three of Boozer, Joe Johnson, others. To try to do the prior immediately ensures FAILURE.

You take this risk with these trades and you applaud it.


Yet, if you guys want to say "We're sending THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON!" Then I can't stop you.

It's incorrect though.

Cosmic,
What have the Knicks done the last 10 years to convince you that they will sniff the playoffs in a couple of years? Unless Lebron signs here, they are lottery picks.
If Cleveland gets Jamison, the dream is dead and the nightmare is alive.
Andrew
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2/17/2010  10:03 AM
I tend to think that if the deal were for unprotected picks Houston would have accepted already. I think the latest report is that they are figuring out what level of protection the picks would get.
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fishmike
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2/17/2010  10:20 AM
WindsorPl wrote:
Cosmic wrote:McGrady Trade: 2012 protected 1st rounder, a right to swap 2011 picks, Jordan Hill.

Reality: By 2012 this team is going to be good, it will be a #20 pick or so.
Reality: Houston will be no better than us next year. They'll be tearing it down next season, we'll be building up. We stand a chance to be better or equal. The swap would be rendered meaningless.
Reality: Jordan Hill is not a draft pick. He is a player now. A disappointing player. It happens. But he is not an outgoing draft pick.

Probable Result: The Knicks send a 2012 #20 or so pick to Houston.


====

Nate Robinson trade: We want a #1 from Boston or LA.

Result: This pick could be equal to our 2012 ougoing pick.

End Result: You don't build a team around Jordan Hill and the 2012 pick - when you have the chance to build a team around two of Bosh, Bron, Wade, Amare - or three of Boozer, Joe Johnson, others. To try to do the prior immediately ensures FAILURE.

You take this risk with these trades and you applaud it.


Yet, if you guys want to say "We're sending THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON!" Then I can't stop you.

It's incorrect though.

Cosmic,
What have the Knicks done the last 10 years to convince you that they will sniff the playoffs in a couple of years? Unless Lebron signs here, they are lottery picks.
If Cleveland gets Jamison, the dream is dead and the nightmare is alive.

To assume we would be in the lottery is to assume we would NOT sign and FA and after that we would NOT be able to take on salary in trades for players already under contract. Do people really see this happening? Seems like at the worst we will overpay for Joe Johnson, Mike Miller and Hakeem Warrick.

The management has been pretty up front about their plan. Arent they entitled to the chance to execute it? Some fans will always bitch no matter what. Its their nature, but when Layden added McDyess to a team with Houston, Spree and Kurt I was willing to wait and see what happened. When Isiah brought in a good coach and an all star PG I was willing to wait and see what happened. Just because those GM's plans totally blew up doesnt mean this one's will. Its not Lebron or bust. Bosh for the max isnt ideal, but having a frontcourt of Gallo (6'10), Bosh (6'10) and Lee (6'9) is a skilled and versatile group to build around. If you sign JJ (you now can) thats a pretty good squad.

Time will tell. Walsh has been a good BB man for a long time. He's made one blunder, and that was missing on Jennings (which he admitted). I am neither a fan or a follower, I only acknowledge he's had success in the past and am willing to give him a shot at executing his plan.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
tkf
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2/17/2010  10:24 AM
Panos wrote:I'm seeing on various threads statements to the effect that if we get a draft pick from Boston
it would offset swapping our 2011, and trading outright our 2012 draft pick.

This is not really true.
The Celtics at the moment are a top caliber team in the league.
The Knicks stink. We're talking about two vastly different values.

The effect of owning YOUR OWN draft pick is like having an insurance policy against
your own suckitude. As we see this year. If we had had our own pick, there would
be *some* upside to the season, some payoff. Having the pick from another team is great,
but likely does not compensate for loss of your own, unless they are horrible too,
which the Celtics are not. Even if they are old, there is no guarantee they will get bad
soon, as they may be able to retool on the fly and even if they slide to the middle of the pack,
a #16 pick in the draft, is VERY different from a #5, should the worst happen, and we continue
to suck.

In my opinion, it really could come back to haunt us by not owning our own picks for 3 yrs in a row: 2010-2012.
But that's just me.

exactly. the only time having another teams pick is a "great" thing, is if you are another teams that owns the knicks pick, that is one of the few times you can gurantee that you will have a pick, much better than your own.. end of story.....

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
WindsorPl
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2/17/2010  10:31 AM
tkf wrote:
Panos wrote:I'm seeing on various threads statements to the effect that if we get a draft pick from Boston
it would offset swapping our 2011, and trading outright our 2012 draft pick.

This is not really true.
The Celtics at the moment are a top caliber team in the league.
The Knicks stink. We're talking about two vastly different values.

The effect of owning YOUR OWN draft pick is like having an insurance policy against
your own suckitude. As we see this year. If we had had our own pick, there would
be *some* upside to the season, some payoff. Having the pick from another team is great,
but likely does not compensate for loss of your own, unless they are horrible too,
which the Celtics are not. Even if they are old, there is no guarantee they will get bad
soon, as they may be able to retool on the fly and even if they slide to the middle of the pack,
a #16 pick in the draft, is VERY different from a #5, should the worst happen, and we continue
to suck.

In my opinion, it really could come back to haunt us by not owning our own picks for 3 yrs in a row: 2010-2012.
But that's just me.

exactly. the only time having another teams pick is a "great" thing, is if you are another teams that owns the knicks pick, that is one of the few times you can gurantee that you will have a pick, much better than your own.. end of story.....

From a Rockets fan blog

Unless Noah is involved than no thanks. Tyrus Thomas, Brad Miller, and Salmons instead of Hill, Jeffries, Hughes expiring and two 1st round picks swap or not. THE PICKS ARE FROM THE NY KNICKS!!! Geez. Really? Why the Bulls? Are they gonna throw in a bunch of picks and even if they do, they will be very low first rounders compared to the Knicks almost guarenteed Lottery pick. The Rockets are using the trade as a bluff.

Besides the sarcasm, why are the Bulls not required to throw in draft picks but the Knicks are?
for some Knick fans draft picks are throw aways that have no apparent value . Then you have years like 2010 and the same fans wish they had their pick back.
tkf
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2/17/2010  10:32 AM
Cosmic wrote:McGrady Trade: 2012 protected 1st rounder, a right to swap 2011 picks, Jordan Hill.

Reality: By 2012 this team is going to be good, it will be a #20 pick or so.
Reality: Houston will be no better than us next year. They'll be tearing it down next season, we'll be building up. We stand a chance to be better or equal. The swap would be rendered meaningless.
Reality: Jordan Hill is not a draft pick. He is a player now. A disappointing player. It happens. But he is not an outgoing draft pick.

Probable Result: The Knicks send a 2012 #20 or so pick to Houston.


====

Nate Robinson trade: We want a #1 from Boston or LA.

Result: This pick could be equal to our 2012 ougoing pick.

End Result: You don't build a team around Jordan Hill and the 2012 pick - when you have the chance to build a team around two of Bosh, Bron, Wade, Amare - or three of Boozer, Joe Johnson, others. To try to do the prior immediately ensures FAILURE.

You take this risk with these trades and you applaud it.


Yet, if you guys want to say "We're sending THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON!" Then I can't stop you.

It's incorrect though.


cosmic, I understand what you are saying 100%.. but this is the knicks, and the last two trades we made giving UP picks, it just didn't work. we never were as good as we thought we would be and all of the picks turned into lottery picks.. the bulls swap became a lottery pick, the other pick we gave the bulls for curry( the second pick owed in the deal) was a lottery pick, and in the marbury trade, 6 years later the pick is about to be a lottery pick again. I am just skeptical about trading picks now..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
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2/17/2010  10:36 AM
WindsorPl wrote:
tkf wrote:
Panos wrote:I'm seeing on various threads statements to the effect that if we get a draft pick from Boston
it would offset swapping our 2011, and trading outright our 2012 draft pick.

This is not really true.
The Celtics at the moment are a top caliber team in the league.
The Knicks stink. We're talking about two vastly different values.

The effect of owning YOUR OWN draft pick is like having an insurance policy against
your own suckitude. As we see this year. If we had had our own pick, there would
be *some* upside to the season, some payoff. Having the pick from another team is great,
but likely does not compensate for loss of your own, unless they are horrible too,
which the Celtics are not. Even if they are old, there is no guarantee they will get bad
soon, as they may be able to retool on the fly and even if they slide to the middle of the pack,
a #16 pick in the draft, is VERY different from a #5, should the worst happen, and we continue
to suck.

In my opinion, it really could come back to haunt us by not owning our own picks for 3 yrs in a row: 2010-2012.
But that's just me.

exactly. the only time having another teams pick is a "great" thing, is if you are another teams that owns the knicks pick, that is one of the few times you can gurantee that you will have a pick, much better than your own.. end of story.....

From a Rockets fan blog

Unless Noah is involved than no thanks. Tyrus Thomas, Brad Miller, and Salmons instead of Hill, Jeffries, Hughes expiring and two 1st round picks swap or not. THE PICKS ARE FROM THE NY KNICKS!!! Geez. Really? Why the Bulls? Are they gonna throw in a bunch of picks and even if they do, they will be very low first rounders compared to the Knicks almost guarenteed Lottery pick. The Rockets are using the trade as a bluff.

Besides the sarcasm, why are the Bulls not required to throw in draft picks but the Knicks are?
for some Knick fans draft picks are throw aways that have no apparent value . Then you have years like 2010 and the same fans wish they had their pick back.

exactly! which is amazing why the suns traded our pick to the jazz.. utah got that pick and they were looking at HS players years ago, and why? because they knew it was the knicks pick, and over the past 8 years, that has been guranteed lottery!! why the bulls are not asked to throw in a pick is a good question.. but if I were a GM, I would ask for the knicks pick, because of the potential value. the chance of it being a high lottery pick is great, therefore increasing it's value over almost any other team in the league!!

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
eViL
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2/17/2010  1:09 PM
sebstar wrote:Some of ya'll need to be easy on the '2012 pick wont matter because we'll be good by then' talk.

That was the EXACT same thinking behind the Eddy Curry deal.

truth. what if we make two huge signings and one guy goes down for the year with a freak injury and we end up sucking despite the offseason plan working? there is never a good time to send unprotected picks.

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Nalod
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2/17/2010  1:24 PM
sebstar wrote:Some of ya'll need to be easy on the '2012 pick wont matter because we'll be good by then' talk.

That was the EXACT same thinking behind the Eddy Curry deal.

I hear you. What are the odds we phuck it up twice inside of 10 years?

Eddy cost us on two ends: He bought us down and the picks went up.

TMack won't hurt us but the FA's SHOULD elevate us.

Im not down with Boozer cuz these contract year health surges don't last.

Faith is a hell of a thing. YOu either got it or you don't.

I don't, but pragmatically speaking there are risks to all this.

The way I see it, either the Brooklyn Nets or the NYK's are going to gain in the next few years. If both surge its great for NY hoop but if the Knicks blow it again they run the risk of losing more fans to the Russian and Brooklyn.

Yeah, I rooted for the DR. J Nets as a kid and went to a lot of games in grade school! Im Russian, and from Brooklyn. Jason Kidd is long gone. KMart is long gone, and KVH is gone. Im not Brook Lopez homer either. But they got a crazy rich Russian in charge, lots of cap room and two years to suck it up on Newark before moving over.

I'll always root for the knicks first but if Lebron, Wall and Pitino are in the finals against the Lakers Im rooting for the Nets!

In my world I hope both teams are competitive and NY hoop wins!
nyk4ever
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2/17/2010  1:30 PM
fishmike wrote:
WindsorPl wrote:
Cosmic wrote:McGrady Trade: 2012 protected 1st rounder, a right to swap 2011 picks, Jordan Hill.

Reality: By 2012 this team is going to be good, it will be a #20 pick or so.
Reality: Houston will be no better than us next year. They'll be tearing it down next season, we'll be building up. We stand a chance to be better or equal. The swap would be rendered meaningless.
Reality: Jordan Hill is not a draft pick. He is a player now. A disappointing player. It happens. But he is not an outgoing draft pick.

Probable Result: The Knicks send a 2012 #20 or so pick to Houston.


====

Nate Robinson trade: We want a #1 from Boston or LA.

Result: This pick could be equal to our 2012 ougoing pick.

End Result: You don't build a team around Jordan Hill and the 2012 pick - when you have the chance to build a team around two of Bosh, Bron, Wade, Amare - or three of Boozer, Joe Johnson, others. To try to do the prior immediately ensures FAILURE.

You take this risk with these trades and you applaud it.


Yet, if you guys want to say "We're sending THREE LOTTO PICKS TO HOUSTON!" Then I can't stop you.

It's incorrect though.

Cosmic,
What have the Knicks done the last 10 years to convince you that they will sniff the playoffs in a couple of years? Unless Lebron signs here, they are lottery picks.
If Cleveland gets Jamison, the dream is dead and the nightmare is alive.

To assume we would be in the lottery is to assume we would NOT sign and FA and after that we would NOT be able to take on salary in trades for players already under contract. Do people really see this happening? Seems like at the worst we will overpay for Joe Johnson, Mike Miller and Hakeem Warrick.

The management has been pretty up front about their plan. Arent they entitled to the chance to execute it? Some fans will always bitch no matter what. Its their nature, but when Layden added McDyess to a team with Houston, Spree and Kurt I was willing to wait and see what happened. When Isiah brought in a good coach and an all star PG I was willing to wait and see what happened. Just because those GM's plans totally blew up doesnt mean this one's will. Its not Lebron or bust. Bosh for the max isnt ideal, but having a frontcourt of Gallo (6'10), Bosh (6'10) and Lee (6'9) is a skilled and versatile group to build around. If you sign JJ (you now can) thats a pretty good squad.

Time will tell. Walsh has been a good BB man for a long time. He's made one blunder, and that was missing on Jennings (which he admitted). I am neither a fan or a follower, I only acknowledge he's had success in the past and am willing to give him a shot at executing his plan.

ive been saying the same exact thing for a while fish. walsh isn't stupid, he's had a solid past, let the man do his thing.

"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Cosmic
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2/17/2010  1:36 PM
WindsorPl wrote:

Cosmic,
What have the Knicks done the last 10 years to convince you that they will sniff the playoffs in a couple of years? Unless Lebron signs here, they are lottery picks.
If Cleveland gets Jamison, the dream is dead and the nightmare is alive.

Different management taking an entirely different path.

Okay, to those of you who oppose all these trades do you really think that:

Jordan Hill
David Lee
Gallo
Chandler
Douglas
Jeffries

plus a mediocre 2011 pick = a future playoff juggernaut?

Because, that is what you're inferring.

You guys would scuttle the chance to build a future dynasty to hold onto Jordan Hill, Jared Jeffries, and an unknown future pick? That is what you want to build a team around?

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Cosmic
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2/17/2010  1:37 PM
WindsorPl wrote:

Besides the sarcasm, why are the Bulls not required to throw in draft picks but the Knicks are?
for some Knick fans draft picks are throw aways that have no apparent value . Then you have years like 2010 and the same fans wish they had their pick back.

They are. The Rockets asked the Bulls for expirings, Taj Gibson, a 2011 swap, and the 2012 pick. Same thing they asked us...and the Bulls want to dump Salmons or Hinrich on them to get rid of salary.

It's the same situation.

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Panos
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2/17/2010  1:38 PM
Cosmic wrote:
WindsorPl wrote:

Cosmic,
What have the Knicks done the last 10 years to convince you that they will sniff the playoffs in a couple of years? Unless Lebron signs here, they are lottery picks.
If Cleveland gets Jamison, the dream is dead and the nightmare is alive.

Different management taking an entirely different path.

Okay, to those of you who oppose all these trades do you really think that:

Jordan Hill
David Lee
Gallo
Chandler
Douglas
Jeffries

plus a mediocre 2011 pick = a future playoff juggernaut?

Because, that is what you're inferring.
You guys would scuttle the chance to build a future dynasty to hold onto Jordan Hill, Jared Jeffries, and an unknown future pick? That is what you want to build a team around?

Not at all. Will we or will we not have the ability to sign a max free agent with or without this trade?
Cosmic
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2/17/2010  1:39 PM
tkf wrote:

cosmic, I understand what you are saying 100%.. but this is the knicks, and the last two trades we made giving UP picks, it just didn't work. we never were as good as we thought we would be and all of the picks turned into lottery picks.. the bulls swap became a lottery pick, the other pick we gave the bulls for curry( the second pick owed in the deal) was a lottery pick, and in the marbury trade, 6 years later the pick is about to be a lottery pick again. I am just skeptical about trading picks now..

My point is the last time we used picks like this we did it to acquire a player who was terrible and we gave a gigantic contract to.

This time we're doing it to clear space to make way for the league's elite free agents.

Huge difference there. And if it fails we're not locked into 5 full years of impossible payroll filled with trash players. We'd still have our full flexibility to make another go at it in the future.

It's entirely different than how Isiah used them.

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2/17/2010  1:41 PM
What people don't understand is that the Knicks have to pay a higher price. There are little to no teams in the NBA that want to help the Knicks get 2 superstars. Nobody wants to see NY back on top. it's a sad reality in the nba. we need to do this all on our own for the most part.
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Cosmic
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2/17/2010  1:42 PM
Panos wrote:

Not at all. Will we or will we not have the ability to sign a max free agent with or without this trade?

Without this trade all we can do is add one max player to the mess you see, AND, be unable to retain David Lee because we'd only have about 7M left to play with.

When a max FA sees this roster they won't want to come here.

When a max FA sees a clean slate roster and is being told he can pair up with another max FA with the promise of adding a third very good player the following summer to form a powerful trio - your chances of landing that "one max" go up infinitely.

Not doing this trade makes the chance of signing any max FA very hard to do.

Doing this trade makes it much easier for TWO max FAs to pair up together - or one max FA and two very solid FAs.

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Clearing up draft pick talk.
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