2.1 paul
2.1 Rondo
2.0 nash
1.9 kidd
1.6 D.williams
1.4 M. Bibby

I also ran it against the career stats of a few players:
1.8 Magic
2.1 Stockton
1.3 Thomas

You can see from the above that the statistic clearly favors pass first point guards. Which makes sense as Assist to turnover ratios are going to be higher then made shots/ missed shot ratios. So I think this stat is more valuable when comparing "Pass First" point guards rather then shoot first point guards.

I then made an adjustment for foul shots as that is another way a point guard can end a possession. I have no way of knowing how a foul shot ame about - in the bonus, technical foul, shooting foul - so a rough estimate I added into the made shots category an addition shot for every two made foul shots. To make this statistic more useful I think you'd have to adjust for number of shots as this clearly favors passers over shooters and for comparing old timers you 'd have to adjust for not having a three point shot. But in general most of the truly great point guards who took a lot of shots still managed a good ratio (well except Isiah). First column is without adjustment for foul shots second column is with adjustment for foul shots.

2.14 2.36 Stockton career
2.13 2.36 paul 09-10
2.07 2.15 Rondo 09-10
1.92 2.30 O. Robertson career *- Pre 3pt shot
1.96 2.12 nash 09-10
2.01 2.12 Bogues career
1.79 2.05 Magic career
1.83 2.00 Cheeks career *- Had one year Pre 3pt
1.71 1.97 W Frazier Career -* Pre 3pt shot
1.90 1.95 kidd 09-10
1.52 1.88 west career *- Pre 3 pt shot
1.71 1.87 nash career
1.70 1.82 Jackson Career
1.61 1.80 D.williams 09-10
1.45 1.66 Rivers Career
1.17 1.63 Bayless 09-10
1.45 1.56 duhon career
1.41 1.52 duhon 09-10
1.42 1.51 sparrow career
1.44 1.51 Bibby 09-10
1.33 1.49 I.Thomas career
1.39 1.47 ward career
1.31 1.43 Rose 09 08-09
1.19 1.41 T Parker 09-10
1.22 1.39 B. Davis 09-10
1.21 1.32 Felton 09-10
1.18 1.32 M.williams 09-10
1.11 1.32 T Evans 09-10
1.18 1.27 S Curry 09-10
1.11 1.25 A .Brooks 09-10
1.12 1.24 Rose 09-10
1.04 1.22 westbrook 09-10
1.05 1.22 G. Arenas 09-10
1.08 1.20 Jennings 09-10
1.01 1.15 Flynn 09-10
1.11 1.15 Douglas 09-10
0.90 1.09 R.Stucky 09-10

orangeblobman wrote:There you have it, Duhon is NOT the worst point guard in the world . Nice statting, Oldfan.

Duhon is as avarage as it gets.
The team of Duhons on all positions will win 35 games each year and never be in play-offs.
But he is not a minus, just 0 - no problems/no impact

OldFan wrote:

arkrud wrote:So finally it's a truth - Isiah sucks on everything, including playing bbal.
Not a surprise that he selected Steph - another loser (by the way - what are his carier stats in your system?).
And clearly players in your nubers above 2 and close to 2 are the best PGs in the game.
Good job getting to the bottom of it...

1.26 1.45 Marbury - Slightly worse then Charlie Ward

Thank You...
What a bust... and sadly he has so many followers. So sad that today NBA advrtising machine makes this types looks good.

SupremeCommander wrote:I like the idea of this equation. I think you need to tinker with it more. A possession can end with no output regarding a PG's stats. And the ball doesn't necessarily have to be controlled by a point during every possession. Ideally you'd like to reward a point for initiating the offense and the outcome netting points.

Good idea though

I was thinking the same thing. The PG can pass the ball and result in a missed shot by the recipient. On the otherhand, the PG pass it off to a player standing 27 ft from the basket who throws up a prayer (which goes in) and it counts as an assist. My thought is that the missed shots can be normalized over time if you give a FG% adjustment... the only issue there is whether the PG has a positive effect on the team's FG% or whether the team's FG% has a positive effect on the PG's output in this equation.

I think we can all agree that the quality of players surrounding Nash and Rondo are much better than the quality of players surrounding Chris Paul>

Also, there is an obvious bias against shoot-first PGs. Except for guys who drive more often than shoot (i.e. Rondo, Tony Parker), their FG% are going to be less than 50%. However, the Assist to Turnover Ratio is going to be a positive number for most PGs and should be around 3 o 3.5 for the best PGs. What happens is that the Assist to Turnover Ratio is skewed very negatively for guys who take a lot of shots (like Isiah Thomas did).

OldFan wrote:Note Duhon comes in well behind Walt Frazier and Mark Jackson, Slightly behind Doc Rivers and slightly ahead of Rory Sparrow and Charlie Ward amongst the former knicks guards on this list.

any stat where Duhon comes out over Isiah Thomas has to be misleading

EwingsGlass wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:I like the idea of this equation. I think you need to tinker with it more. A possession can end with no output regarding a PG's stats. And the ball doesn't necessarily have to be controlled by a point during every possession. Ideally you'd like to reward a point for initiating the offense and the outcome netting points.

Good idea though

I was thinking the same thing. The PG can pass the ball and result in a missed shot by the recipient. On the otherhand, the PG pass it off to a player standing 27 ft from the basket who throws up a prayer (which goes in) and it counts as an assist. My thought is that the missed shots can be normalized over time if you give a FG% adjustment... the only issue there is whether the PG has a positive effect on the team's FG% or whether the team's FG% has a positive effect on the PG's output in this equation.

I think we can all agree that the quality of players surrounding Nash and Rondo are much better than the quality of players surrounding Chris Paul>

Also, there is an obvious bias against shoot-first PGs. Except for guys who drive more often than shoot (i.e. Rondo, Tony Parker), their FG% are going to be less than 50%. However, the Assist to Turnover Ratio is going to be a positive number for most PGs and should be around 3 o 3.5 for the best PGs. What happens is that the Assist to Turnover Ratio is skewed very negatively for guys who take a lot of shots (like Isiah Thomas did).

Yeah - I noted this bias in my original post. That's why Oscar, West and Fraziers numbers really standout. They shot a lot, didn't have the advantage of the 3 pointer and still had good ratios.

I agree it needs some work. I think trying to account for possessions where the play didn't terminate in the PG getting assist, making a turnover or taking a shot would require watching film. Don't know how you'd account for that based on box scores.

arkrud wrote:

TMS wrote:

OldFan wrote:Note Duhon comes in well behind Walt Frazier and Mark Jackson, Slightly behind Doc Rivers and slightly ahead of Rory Sparrow and Charlie Ward amongst the former knicks guards on this list.

any stat where Duhon comes out over Isiah Thomas has to be misleading

This stats are about PG skills not about bbol/player skills in general.
Isiah was not a pure PG by any streach. And it is nothing wrong about it.
LA has Fisher and still wins the Title(s). It's all about the system and players matching to each other.

anyone who watched Isiah play wanna tell me he didn't have better pure PG skills than Chris Duhon or Jerryd Bayless?