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Regarding D Lee
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Knixkik
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12/14/2009  2:41 PM
First of all i have been very impressed with how he has been playing. I know he struggles on defense, but overall he has improved a ton, and will definitely have a shot to be an all-star this year if we get close to .500 by all-star break. Now, i'm trying not to get caught up in this given the win streak, but how much better are Bosh and Amare than Lee really? Yes i know they are better, but many people don't see Lee as a starter on a good team. I don't buy that one bit. He's not a star, but a very good player, possibly a top-10 PF with a chance to make a couple all-star games in his career. Best of all, he is improving every year, and you have to realize that isn't because of it being a contract year, it's because he's just getting better.

All of this being said, if we deal either Curry or Jeffries for an expiring (more likely JJ) and have close to the money needed for a second big FA, do you prefer Bosh or Amare at 16-17 per, or Lee and say Camby as a rental for salaries starting at 9 and 5 per? Camby isn't a long term solution obviously but will be a solid center for a couple of years providing post defense and shot blocking, and allows Lee to move to PF. This is all with the hope that LBJ comes here, i know it's no guarentee, but that's why this is hypothetical. Also keep in mind that Lee compliments LeBron very well with his skill-set, maybe as well as anyone who isn't a top-5 big man in the league. So if you have the choice, which is it, a 2nd big name FA to compliment LeBron, or Lee at PF and a solid defensive minded center? In this case you line-up might look something like this.

C Camby/Curry
PF Lee/Hill/2nd rd pick
SF Gallo/Chandler/Bender
SG LBJ/Hughes
PG Douglas/Hughes/2nd rd pick
AUTOADVERT
Rookie
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12/14/2009  2:55 PM
I think Lee will be an option after DW explores the FA market. He should still be available considering that his agent was looking for 12M last year and he's playing better this year and might even look for more. I haven't seen Bosh play this year, but everytime I see a box score he has like 27 points. I don't think Lee will be back so I'd like to see him traded for a young player and a future draft pick instead of just walking. The only alternative to that being if we decide to make a run for the playoffs and make a trade for t-Mac and keep Lee for the entire season.
BigSm00th
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12/14/2009  3:04 PM
what about jordan hill? i'm still eager to see what that guy has. and how are you going to ship JJ or curry outta here without using lee as trade bait? just too early to give a fair assessment of the whole situation. i do like what i've seen from lee though.
#Knickstaps
MS
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12/14/2009  3:24 PM
It's hard to really tell on Bosh because he can't really carry a team, but outside of Lebron James I don't know if anyone in this league can. Kobe can't, Wade does an admirable job.

Lee at 8 million per is a good signing. He isn't coming off the bench he is putting up 18pts 11rbs not numbers for a bench player. If Duhon signs for 3 million that's fine. But I would much rather look at Lowry he isn't getting big money and he adds defense. Hughes is not worth bringing back even for the mid level. He needs the ball to be effective and with lebron here if he is here hughes is basically useless. Chandler will come into his own at the 3 spot and is starting to play better, gallo at the 4 and lee at the five with hill coming off the bench is fine by me. Douglas, James, Chandler, Gallo are all decent defenders and it gives the team shotblocking at three position which allows us to get by with lee at the 5.
Knixkik
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12/14/2009  3:26 PM
BigSm00th wrote:what about jordan hill? i'm still eager to see what that guy has. and how are you going to ship JJ or curry outta here without using lee as trade bait? just too early to give a fair assessment of the whole situation. i do like what i've seen from lee though.

I think we are almost to the point where we can package JJ by himself. He is playing good basketball and someone could use his skillset. Jordan Hill will be there as a back up, but we can't expect him to go from being a bench player to significant contributer right away. The best thing for him would be signing a guy like Camby to play in front of him for a year or two, and hopefully Hill can play 15-20 minutes off the bench next year, and learn from him, then be a starter by his 3rd or 4th year in the league at the latest.
GodSaveTheKnicks
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12/14/2009  5:04 PM
MS wrote:It's hard to really tell on Bosh because he can't really carry a team, but outside of Lebron James I don't know if anyone in this league can. Kobe can't, Wade does an admirable job.

Lee at 8 million per is a good signing. He isn't coming off the bench he is putting up 18pts 11rbs not numbers for a bench player. If Duhon signs for 3 million that's fine. But I would much rather look at Lowry he isn't getting big money and he adds defense. Hughes is not worth bringing back even for the mid level. He needs the ball to be effective and with lebron here if he is here hughes is basically useless. Chandler will come into his own at the 3 spot and is starting to play better, gallo at the 4 and lee at the five with hill coming off the bench is fine by me. Douglas, James, Chandler, Gallo are all decent defenders and it gives the team shotblocking at three position which allows us to get by with lee at the 5.

Guys around the league making $8 M per:

Atlanta:

Jamal Crawford makes 9M this season 10M next
Marvin Williams 7-8 M per

Charlotte:

Stephen Jackson

Chicago:

Kirk Hinrich is making 8-9 M per.

I guess 8M per for DLee would be fair.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
Knixkik
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12/14/2009  5:20 PM
MS wrote:It's hard to really tell on Bosh because he can't really carry a team, but outside of Lebron James I don't know if anyone in this league can. Kobe can't, Wade does an admirable job.

Lee at 8 million per is a good signing. He isn't coming off the bench he is putting up 18pts 11rbs not numbers for a bench player. If Duhon signs for 3 million that's fine. But I would much rather look at Lowry he isn't getting big money and he adds defense. Hughes is not worth bringing back even for the mid level. He needs the ball to be effective and with lebron here if he is here hughes is basically useless. Chandler will come into his own at the 3 spot and is starting to play better, gallo at the 4 and lee at the five with hill coming off the bench is fine by me. Douglas, James, Chandler, Gallo are all decent defenders and it gives the team shotblocking at three position which allows us to get by with lee at the 5.


I like what we have to surround lebron but i still think we are better off with lee at the 4 and going big with gallo at 3 and james at 2. It becomes a nightmare matchup. lee needs a shot blocker and defender next to him. Maybe the following year if we picked up someone like tayshawn prince, it would be ok just because you added a top notch defender, but in general you're better off starting lee at the 4 and having a camby/ok4/t chandler or even mark gasol if we could get him as a restricted FA in 2011. Anyone think if he continues to improve we can pry him from memphis at $10-12M per year? He looks well on his way to being a top-5 center in the league for a long time and could be a nice fit in this offense with the need for a skilled, 2-way center.
TMS
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12/15/2009  8:54 PM
i prefer Bosh over Lee & Camby, cuz Bosh has the more draw appeal to other bigname FA's & u almost always need that 2nd elite player on your team to win a championship.
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BigSm00th
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12/15/2009  8:55 PM
TMS wrote:i prefer Bosh over Lee & Camby, cuz Bosh has the more draw appeal to other bigname FA's & u almost always need that 2nd elite player on your team to win a championship.

when you say he is going to draw other big name FA's, are you presuming that lebron won't be here?

#Knickstaps
TMS
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12/15/2009  8:56 PM
BigSm00th wrote:
TMS wrote:i prefer Bosh over Lee & Camby, cuz Bosh has the more draw appeal to other bigname FA's & u almost always need that 2nd elite player on your team to win a championship.

when you say he is going to draw other big name FA's, are you presuming that lebron won't be here?

no, i'm presuming Lebron won't come to play w/Lee & Camby but he will come to play w/Bosh.

u bring in guys like Camby on MLE deals after u max out on 2 big name guys.

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Knixkik
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12/15/2009  9:53 PM
If you can't deal both Jeffries and Curry you will have room to get a top FA in 2011. You can resign Lee and get LeBron and still have flexibility in the future. I know it works both ways, but there will be some options next year at key positions, including Tony Parker, Marc Gasol, Prince, or maybe a trade for Ellis, Arenas or someone of that caliber.
TMS
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12/15/2009  11:52 PM
Knixkik wrote:If you can't deal both Jeffries and Curry you will have room to get a top FA in 2011. You can resign Lee and get LeBron and still have flexibility in the future. I know it works both ways, but there will be some options next year at key positions, including Tony Parker, Marc Gasol, Prince, or maybe a trade for Ellis, Arenas or someone of that caliber.

that's Lebron's call obviously so who knows if he'll be willing to just waste another year of his prime while they wait til they can draw another bigname stud... he's had enough of that in CLE i would venture to guess... i don't think any FA's in 2011 will appeal to Lebron more than the prospect of playing next to someone like Bosh, Amare or Dirk... Melo is a bigname that will be out there but Lebron & Melo won't work, they both dominate the ball too much... Lebron needs a bigman who can play Robin to his Batman... Parker will stay in SA, there's no way he's leaving there... Ellis, Arenas & Prince won't draw Lebron here.

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Knixkik
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12/16/2009  11:07 AM
There may end up being almost as many options in 2011. Yao Ming will be a FA and even tho he may not be the answer, he's a star on the floor for 25-30 minutes per game when healthy. Dirk won't opt out and will likely either sign an extention of become a FA in 2011. Amare could easily just not opt out either and play one more year with Nash while he can still play at a high level, then become a FA in 2011. And people seem to forget Marc Gasol, who is primed to be a top 5 center in the league, and considering Thabeet still has good potential and will be on a rookie contract for quite some time, Memphis probably won't match a huge deal for Gasol. This doesn't count parker or pau gasol, who are out there, but probably will resign with their teams, although i think there's a chance san antonio opts to completely rebuild and let's parker go if they can get a couple young prospects in return.
TMS
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12/16/2009  11:45 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  11:47 AM
Amare will definitely opt out dude, this is his best chance to sign a lucrative contract extension... he'd be a fool to risk playing another year w/o a guaranteed longterm extension under his belt, especially during the biggest free agency bonanza in the history of the NBA w/several teams set up with tons of dollars to spend including 3 huge NBA markets like NY, CHI & MIA & a potential future one in NJ if they end up moving cross the river.

Marc Gasol is not gonna garner max dollars in free agency even if he wants it due to the cap rules of tenured players in the NBA so MEM can probably afford to keep him there if he wants to stay, which i personally think he will end up doing... besides he's not in the class of a Bosh, Amare or even a Boozer at this point... IMO he's about on D Lee's level or slightly below in terms of free agency value & market appeal... no way in hell will Lebron be swayed anywhere just because he sees a chance to play alongside that guy a year later.

his brother Pau will stay in La-La land, no reason for him to leave there either, who are they gonna replace him with in 2011 that's better? Zach Randolph? come on dude... same goes for Parker in SA... those guys will stay where they are, bank on it... the choices in 2011 are Melo & not much else... Yao Ming is the only real impact guy out there but his health is a huge question mark, who even knows if he'll still be playing at that point? u can't factor him into the discussion at this point... Caron Butler is not gonna entice Lebron to go anywhere either & neither is Richard Jefferson.

the time to get Lebron is 2010 & the only way to do that realistically is to offer him a chance to come play w/a bigname the same year... ain't no way we can keep D Lee beyond 2010 & still accomplish that goal unless we can dump both Curry & Fishlips' deals for expirings.

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Knixkik
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12/16/2009  12:45 PM
In a perfect world we will trade curry and jeffries and have space to sign 2 max FA and resign lee, which obviously most of us hope happen. I do really think we need to find a way to keep lee no matter what, unless we sign lebron and he says he doesn't want lee back, which would never happen.

I don't care what is said about lee's defense or his "empty stats." Yes he has flaws, but he plays the right way and wants to be in new york. Plus he's one of our players that we developed. He improves at something every year. He's already a great rebounder, finisher with both hands, good mid range shooter, passer, ball handler, and has a developing post game. No reason that he won't improve his man to man D and become one of the leagues better post scorers. Alongside Lebron, he is a pick & roll nightmare and will no doubt average big numbers, maybe even 20 a game for a couple seasons. He already does many things as good as anyone in the league. He's one of our guys, and i think he's a winner.
TMS
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12/16/2009  1:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/16/2009  1:09 PM
let's say for argument's sake, we are able to somehow dump both Curry & Fishlips' deals... at that point if we're signing Bosh to play alongside Lebron i just don't see the point in keeping Lee... Bosh does everything Lee does & more... IMO he's the type of 4 MDA is looking for, someone who can post up, run the floor, finish, defend, create his own shot, be a go to guy on offense, has 3 pt range on his J, can excel in the P&R, passes well out of the post, etc.... if we signed a veteran C to mid level dollars who can bring defense & block shots like a Marcus Camby or Brendan Haywood & pair him up with Jordan Hill as your C tandem for next season to play alongside Lebron & Bosh, IMO that's a much better way to go both cost wise & logistically... u could use the leftover money u save by adding some depth in your backcourt as well, maybe keeping Larry Hughes or signing Raja Bell.

we have to think in practical terms here even in these fantasy scenarios... D Lee will not come cheap, you're looking at spending at least $8-10 mil per annum to keep him here beyond this season... his lack of defense, while you may not want to hear it, still remains a huge flaw in his game & u can't just assume he's gonna come in every year of his career with yet another skillset... all players have a ceiling... D Lee at his age has likely reached his or very close to reaching it at this point... yes, we developed him & he's one of our guys, but how can u call him a winner when he's never won anything at the NBA level yet? he's got a winning mentality maybe, i'll agree w/u there, but that doesn't make him a winner yet.

personally i think this rotation has a better shot at winning championships than if we have D Lee starting at C for us & no depth in our backcourt... his defensive deficiencies are just too glaring to ignore at such a key position.

C - Haywood or Camby
PF - Bosh
SF - Lebron
SG - Hughes or Bell
PG - Douglas
6 - Gallo
7 - Chandler
8 - Hill

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Knixkik
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12/16/2009  1:26 PM
He may not have won anything yet, but you can tell a player who knows how to win and has that mentality. I agree your plan makes for more balance right away, but you resign lee in that circumstance because he gives you another weapon, and people underestimate how well his game fits with a guy like lebron. You resign him then worry about depth as you go. Also, i don't think we can assume he ceiling ends soon. Nash is still finding new ways to improve. That's what these high iq players do. Lee is one of those guys and will find different ways, and he's not a guy who relies on his athletic ability where he will decline quickly after 30. He's a long term guy that alongside another star or two makes you a championship team and he will make a couple all-star teams before the end of his career, mark my words.
TMS
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12/16/2009  2:01 PM
no argument there, i don't doubt he has the ability to make an AS team or 2 before it's all said & done but i'm looking for ways to put together a team that gives me the best chance to win championships & puts guys into roles they can excel in the most, i could really care less if Lee makes an AS team or not... to me, signing D Lee here & maximizing his ability so that he could gain that type of personal achievement will mean continuing to roll him off the P&R almost everytime he's on the floor... how is that going to happen when you will have Bosh doing essentially the same thing almost everytime down the floor w/Lebron is my question... u should have one or the other bigman playing that role with Lebron James, not both.

there's only a certain amount of touches guys will get on the ball anyways... between Lebron, Bosh, Gallo, Chandler, Hill & TD contributing how many touches will we realistically need Lee to get anyway on the offensive side of the ball? having 2 stud superstars & a team that plays good defense wins u championships in the NBA... almost every recent championship team has had a stud shotblocker on the team as well... both Haywood & Camby can serve that role, D Lee can't & there's no reason to believe he ever will IMO.

like i said in past threads, if Lee asks for anything more than $8 mil per, then it's time to part ways with the guy, & believe me he's been my favorite Knick since he's been here... but i gotta think past my personal loyalties & think about what's best for the franchise as a whole.

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newyorknewyork
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12/16/2009  2:13 PM
MDA's system likes one guy who can predominantly be the pick and roll guy while the rest of the 4 are capable 3pt threats.

They are going to look at centers with 3 pt shooting range in order to give David Lee that type of space. Which is why they signed Bender who they hope can be that 3pt shooting center. Or they are going to move Lee and look for a natural pick and roll type of center. Maybe even develop Hill into that. And look at a PF with range out to the 3pt line.

So I don't believe they will go after centers like Camby or Haywood in order to pair them up with Lee.

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Knixkik
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12/16/2009  2:18 PM
We're definitely on the same page about Lee, i think we view his value realitively the same. And i agree with the way you are hypothetically building this team, i just really want to see him maximize his potential with us. Yes adding Bosh gives you a great chance of winning a championship, but i don't think it's essential. LeBron has proven he can take teams to the finals being the only star. Gallo will get there as a secondary star someday. Lee is the perfect 3rd option. These are players that will be great surrounding LeBron. Now if LeBron says get these guys, and they're attainable, you have to do it. But i still think Lee is very underrated where Bosh and Amare are slightly overrated. Toronto will likely finish this season with a slightly better record than the Knicks, with Bosh putting up career numbers. What isn't factored in is how much more talented that team really is. You put Bosh on this team right now instead of Lee and how many more games do you really win? Now i like Bosh and hope we can get him, and him and Lee could definitely coexist, but Lee at 8-9M starting and Bosh at 17M is definitely something to think about.
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