When it comes to this kid I don't get D'Antoni at all. He's out to lunch in fact. Of course he's looking like a "deer in headlights" which is what the coach just called him -- he just isn't putting Jordan Hill in the right place on the floor to succeed for this team. Of course he's not gonna look good. My question to our coach: why would you do that?? Why on Earth is he not playing to the guy's strengths???? Ya think you might have something to do with his struggles so far Mike?? Jesus, it's like hiring a guy to paint your house and then asking him to install a bathtub. That's not what he does...Boggles my mind. If he was used properly right from the beginning, my guess is Hill would've shown enough to be a part of this rotation, maybe even serve as the starting center or PF by now. Instead he's ridiculed by D'Antoni and fans alike and all plans to play Hill significant minutes are put on hold for the time being...Great..

Consider this quote from the Newsday article Hahn just wrote up on him (http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/first-round-pick-hill-a-work-in-progress-for-knicks-1.1542120?localLinksEnabled=false):

"In college, everything was slow," Hill said. "I would just like to shot-block everything and stay at the block all the time. Now coach D'Antoni wants to spread the floor and I'm out defending. So it's all new to me now."

Now it may seem that way to Hill early on but I don't believe the pace he played at with Arizona was any slower. In fact when Duhon's at the controls, the pace might actually be slower here with the Knicks. Nic Wise did an excellent job of pushing the ball for the Wildcats and I saw with my own eyes Hill running the court getting easy buckets time after time in transistion. The Wildcats played a very exciting, offensive, uptempo brand off basketball. And when that wasn't there, Hill did what every 6'10" big with solid offensive skills is expected to do - he set up on the block and punished guys with his advanced post game. That's how he was able to put up 18 & 11 last year. He didn't put up numbers like that by accident. Ask yourselves, how many times in the pre-season has Hill been asked to pin his man down low and attempt to score on him? I count zero...

I know what the kid's saying with that quote more or less. He's not trying to criticize MDA, but if you read between the lines he's basically saying he's more of a fish out of water than a deer in headlights. And you know what, right now it's out of his control. His assignment is completely different and he's having trouble adapting to this new role which doesn't take advantage of his strengths in the slightest. I mean what is he supposed to do? D'Antoni wants his big guys all the way out high setting picks and passing the ball to cutters and I don't know if that's the best thing. Maybe that's OK for Milicic, who's actually a very good passer but offers little else or for Jeffries who's not much of an offensive player anyway, but not for Hill. Hill's so much more skilled offensively than those two it's not even funny. Hill's 6'10" with a very good offensive game 10' and in. Well above average. This guy exceled in that zone on the floor in college. Dare I say dominated. He's not asked to do that here so far and I think that's a mistake. D'Antoni has everything to do with Hill looking lost at sea here. No doubt in my mind. It's just a question of when he'll finally wake up and smell the coffee and let this kid play the traditional big man's game -- HIS GAME -- then we'll finally see the real Jordan Hill. In the meantime, keep trying to shoehorn a round peg in a square hole with this kid Mike. And when it continually doesn't work, keep calling the poor kid a deer in headlights in the papers and making people believe that it's his fault. Good job buddy....

[Edited by - finestrg on 10-23-2009 05:54 AM]

Look man....basketball is basketball. You gotta play the game not just what you are good at. This is not really a position sport cuz guys get swithed on all the time. In fact I would go as far as calling a player a ***** if they are complaining about playing a certain way...."I never played that way" then bitch you never played basketball!!!! Real players just play ball. At the end of the day you are out there playing the game the coach is not on the floor...

so you...whats the problem exactly???

D'antoni wants everyone to be about to hit the open jumper...Jordan Hill is actually comfortable hitting from the outside. The basic thing to do is shoot the basketball...so you telling me that D'antoni telling Jordan to hit the open jumper is something outta the ordinary???

Also...D'antoni has been giving Jordan his touches inside. Jordan has poor foot work right now and doesn't know what he wants to do. IMHO he doesn't really know how to play the game of basketball. Is is talent there? yes...can h escore inside, yes and his moves are pretty advanced....But can he play against a nba defense night in and out....no not right now at least...

Will he get there??? I'm hoping but he has to stop complaining and learn how to play the game and not respond to loaded questions that reporters ask.

Nuff said in my opinion. The problem isn't D'antoni...I'm sure D'antoni goes in behind closed doors and in practice. There is no need to chew a guy out in front of everyone if you need them to get better.

Again...Jordan Hills footwork is sloppy. He also has tons of moves but not a clue of how to react yet to real game situations....He holds the ball too much and hasn't figured out which guy to pass it too if he needs to....he'll get it but my thing is stop bitching abou tthe coach. Word!

Hill needs a lot more time. I thought he'd be an NBA ready rebounder, but he's not even there yet. He won't have much of an impact till much later this year at best.

Finestrg, why the pitty party for this kid? Did you see the Summer League games? They posted him quite a bit on the block and that kid was a mess.

You know why? He was up against Thabeet in one game, and McGee in another.

You know what they don't have in the Pac10? Dudes like Thabeet and McGee.

You know what he's going to need to do in the NBA? Expand his game, learn to face up.

This ain't the Pac10. He's not going to be able to bring that weak turnaround that he pulled most of the time I was watching him in college.

Damn right this kid isn't comfortable. He had two traveling violations back to back. Dude's got to get his stuff together.

The kid just needs to bulk up so he can play more Wilcox-ish on the block, but keep his fluid jumper. If he can be Wilcox with a brain and a jumper, that's workable.

Hill actually looks like he might develop a low post game. Right now he is too light, but in 2-3 years, with 20 ibs of muscle and some experience, I am starting to think the kid can become a solid PF. It all depends on how hard he works.

I don't think it's all MDA's fault. More like 80-20. If I were Hill right now, I'd go with the flow (he's really got no choice - you can't fight the system) and continue to bust my tail in practice. Start there. My coach telling the papers that I'm some kind of deer in headlights would really annoy me and light a fire under my ass...It's not like he's slow afoot, he's got to get out on the break and get down court and show he can at least score the ball in transition. Good place to start. Harrington & Lee do it on occasion when it's there, no reason Hill can't. That's nothing but hustle and effort. In fact I wish a lot of our players did that more -- I really thought we'd be seeing a lot more of that with this coach. Again, it ain't all on Mike - we don't have enough players to really play pure run & gun here yet (Duhon doesn't really push the ball like he should and it starts with him, Gallo isn't beating anyone down court - I don't think I've seen Gallo score one bucket in transition since becoming a Knick, etc..). But Jordan can certainly do that - he did it in college.

But when that's not there, he needs to camp out near the basket and go to work. He'll learn this 'out high' stuff soon enough and become more comfortable with it in time. He's gonna have to..I personally wouldn't even bother starting an offensive set with him out there but that's what Mike does - Harrington, Lee, Gallo, Milicic and now even Jeffries all feel comfortable out there but they all have answers from out there - Harrington can stay out there and shoot threes or take his man off the dribble if need be. Same for Lee whose jumper has really come a long way (Lee's also extremely active & mobile, can pass it well & isn't much of a post player anyway - the way Mike wants to use his bigs perfectly suits Lee's game, hence the good numbers). At this point all Gallo can do is shoot 3s it seems like. Same for Jeffries (gotta give JJ some credit, he's not very skilled but he remains active and can shoot 3s a little now). And Darko might be one of the best passing 7 footers I've ever seen so even he works well out there to start the offense (I wish he made more of an effort to go to the basket after one of his slick passes though, he tends to admire his handywork instead of sealing the deal and rolling to the basket)...Hill's different. If it were up to me, I'd want him as close to the rim as possible. I wouldn't even fool around with him 25 feet from the basket with my PG - he's dead in the water out there, playing right into the defense's hands. When Jordan's on the floor you figure there will always be one or two other bigs out there with him that can satisfy Mike's need to start with at least 1 big out high...If I were an opposing coach, I'd love seeing Jordan Hill out there taking 20 footers. That's not his game. He needs to work deep inside-out, not 25' and in. They got it backwards with this guy right now imo..

Posted by JohnWallace44:

Finestrg, why the pitty party for this kid? Did you see the Summer League games? They posted him quite a bit on the block and that kid was a mess.

You know why? He was up against Thabeet in one game, and McGee in another.

You know what they don't have in the Pac10? Dudes like Thabeet and McGee.

arent you gaagaa over Brook Lopez? Isnt he from the Pac10?

Hill's games vs. Stanford:
@Stanford (loss 76-60) 32 minutes 17 points, 16 rebs 8/13 shooting, 2 blocks 4 steals
vs Stanford (win 101-87) 37 minutes 20 points, 8 rebs, 8/14 shooting, 2 blocks, 1 steal

Since we are going crazy over a tiny sampling of games arent these valid?

I'm with Fine here- I love MDA, but the thing I don't like about him is he and his system aren't flexible.

We could have the second coming of Kareem, and MDA would have him at the 3pt line.

Curry could get down to 280, 2% fat, add muscle, and there is no way MDA would want to use Curry effectively.

Eny - Basketball might be Basketball on the play ground for ordinary smucks like us. But, this is the NBA, guys have different strengths and abilities.

Why don't have Hill be our PG? Duhon sucks. Basketball is Basketball. Hill should be able to run the offense just fine.

And while we're at it, Lee is our best defender, lets make him our stopper.


I'm concerned that Hill drafted where he was can't get playing time on a 34 win team.

We can debate why, who's at fault, etc. But this is a fact, and no matter how you explain it, I think a reason for concern.

I support MDA, and think he has done a good job turning the franchise around.

And I'm sure Hill will eventually contribute.

But if we drafted a guy we can't use, all we'll do is ruin any value he has. If he doesn't fit here because he can't play the way MDA wants him to, move him.

Posted by Finestrg:

Man what an unbelievably biased position your taking up here against this kid. We get it - he wasn't your guy. It amazes me how so many people who don't get the player they wanted in the draft simple dismiss the player we did get as a guy who can't play instead of keeping an open mind...Pitty party? Weak turnaround?? Not enough skilled big men in the Pac-10??? What are you talking about brah??? USC didn't have Taj Gibson, one of the most underrated bigs in the entire country? ASU didn't have Jeff Pendergraph, who's no Gibson but still a solid contributor? Forget Pac-10 competition for a min., you mean to tell me Jordan Hill didn't bring it and play at a high level against other out-of-conference big men? You mean to tell me he didn't hold his own against the Zags' Austin Daye & Josh Heytvelt? Or against Cole Aldrich of Kansas, a guy that's projected to go in the lottery next draft? Both of those games were on TV my dude, sorry if you missed them. Hill destroying Aldrich & the Morris brothers on national TV was really his coming out party. That's when I knew he was special..Outside of the Blair/Thabeet game where Blair really took it to Thabeet, Hill eating up Aldrich was probably the biggest one-sided matchup between two of the more highly thought of big men all year...

And for your information, I did see the SL games. Ever second of them. And I liked how he played to be honest with you - the shooting percentage wasn't there but Weber was using him the right way and by the end of the week, he was playing well. He played his game. I love his turnaround jumpshot in close - to me it's a thing of beauty and one of his bigger strengths. Everything about it is completely sound - quickly executed, touch, footwork. Too bad the last time we've seen it was in the summer..

Take a good look at these clips. Tell me how many times you see Hill looking to take college threes. Zippo. Not what he does - that's for big guys like Austin Daye, Kevin Pittsnogle..Hill's game is predicated on speed and interior-out play with a real nice-looking 10-15 footer when it's there. Why draft the kid if you didn't intend on using and exploiting these strengths?

Look, Taj Gibson, and Pendergraph are not the type of guys he's going to go up against in the NBA. Daye plays an entirely different position.

McGee couldn't have destroyed a player anymore than he did Hill in the final game of the SL. If that's progress... I don't know man.

You're right, I didn't like the pick, and I've railed against it ever since the draft. Its just so unbelievably frustrating to be a fan of a team that has been this bad for this long and botch draft after draft after draft.

Layden couldn't pick a player to save his life, and he traded away Nene when he finally got one right.

Isiah could draft with the best of them, but traded away his high picks.

Walsh seems like he's back to the Layden ways.

This is Walsh's draft history. Want to sign up for another decade of this?

Selected forward Danilo Gallinari (6th overall pick).
Selected forward James Jones (49th overall pick).
Selected guard Fred Jones (14th overall pick).
Selected guard Jamison Brewer (41st overall pick).
Selected forward Primoz Brezec (27th overall pick) and guard Jaquay Walls (56th overall pick).
Selected guard Vonteego Cummings (26th overall pick).
Traded the draft rights to guard Vonteego Cummings and a future first-round draft pick for the draft rights to center Jeff Foster.
Selected forward Al Harrington (25th overall pick).
Selected forward Austin Croshere (12th overall pick)
Selected center Erick Dampier (10th overall pick) and forward Mark Pope (52nd overall pick).
Traded guards Mark Jackson and Ricky Pierce and their first round pick, 23rd overall, in the 1996 draft to the Denver Nuggets for guards Jalen Rose and Reggie Williams and a first round selection, 10th overall, in the 1996 draft.
Selected guards Travis Best (23rd overall pick) and Fred Hoiberg.

Selected forward Danilo Gallinari (6th overall pick).
Selected forward James Jones (49th overall pick).
Selected guard Fred Jones (14th overall pick).
Selected guard Jamison Brewer (41st overall pick).
Selected forward Primoz Brezec (27th overall pick) and guard Jaquay Walls (56th overall pick).
Selected guard Vonteego Cummings (26th overall pick).
Traded the draft rights to guard Vonteego Cummings and a future first-round draft pick for the draft rights to center Jeff Foster.
Selected forward Al Harrington (25th overall pick).
Selected forward Austin Croshere (12th overall pick)
Selected center Erick Dampier (10th overall pick) and forward Mark Pope (52nd overall pick).
Traded guards Mark Jackson and Ricky Pierce and their first round pick, 23rd overall, in the 1996 draft to the Denver Nuggets for guards Jalen Rose and Reggie Williams and a first round selection, 10th overall, in the 1996 draft.
Selected guards Travis Best (23rd overall pick) and Fred Hoiberg.

Is that really that bad? They already had a winning team and he rarely got high picks to work with. Dampier he traded a year later for Mullen. Harrington, Croshere, Jalen Rose and Travis Best were rotation players in a team that went to the finals.

I think his history has shown he's a very good judge of talent and adept at building a team. Drafting is just part of that. His big pieces came through trades, but that was mostly because he had pretty late draft picks to work with.

Posted by JohnWallace44:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by JohnWallace44:

Finestrg, why the pitty party for this kid? Did you see the Summer League games? They posted him quite a bit on the block and that kid was a mess.

You know why? He was up against Thabeet in one game, and McGee in another.

You know what they don't have in the Pac10? Dudes like Thabeet and McGee.

arent you gaagaa over Brook Lopez? Isnt he from the Pac10?

Hill's games vs. Stanford:
@Stanford (loss 76-60) 32 minutes 17 points, 16 rebs 8/13 shooting, 2 blocks 4 steals
vs Stanford (win 101-87) 37 minutes 20 points, 8 rebs, 8/14 shooting, 2 blocks, 1 steal

Since we are going crazy over a tiny sampling of games arent these valid?

That is encouraging. I'll definitely give you props for digging that up.

This didn't come against Lopez, though they were typical productive games from Hill. The Lopez brothers were playing in the NBA last year. I pointed out the games worth mentioning..