Toney is a guy both D'antoni and Donnie both liked coming into the draft. How much effect is his presence on picking up a point guard via free agency?

Sessions is good but his game is very similiar to how Toney played in summer league just more polished and under control. Do the Knicks feel Toney can eventually reach the level of Sessions, or at least compete with his fellow peer in this draft?

Having Toney Douglas out play Duhon to become the starter his rookie year would be a good story...(i don't even want Duhon on the roster)

This is a good post... It should factor bigtime.

Douglas: 6'1 with a 6'6 wingspan, standing reach 8' 1.5
Sessions: 6'2 with a 6'4 wingpan, standing reach 8' 1.5

Douglas: max vert 32.5
Sessions: max vert 33.5

Douglas: bench press 15, lane agility 10.63, 3/4 court sprint 3.03
Sessions: bench press 8, lane agility 11.65, 3/4 court sprint 3.27

Douglas was a much more productive CBB player. Douglas is and Sessions are exactly the same size, with Douglas having the edge in reach, strength and quickness (at least at the time of the draft).

You have two very similar physical players.
What Sessions has is a (small) sampling of NBA games where he put up good numbers at PG. NBA experience bad team or not should not be discounted.
What Douglas has is his play against high level of competition, his age and experience and he is one of the best defenders in CBB. Something we are in painful need of on the perimeter.

Summer league production doesnt mean much to me, but you can look at certain skills a player brings and Douglas did a a great job of getting into the paint at will and dishing to open shooters and scorers.

I just dont see Sessions as a big enough improvement over Duhon, Nate and Douglas to merit the signing and the money against next year's cap.

Posted by fishmike:

This is a good post... It should factor bigtime.

Douglas: 6'1 with a 6'6 wingspan, standing reach 8' 1.5
Sessions: 6'2 with a 6'4 wingpan, standing reach 8' 1.5

Douglas: max vert 32.5
Sessions: max vert 33.5

Douglas: bench press 15, lane agility 10.63, 3/4 court sprint 3.03
Sessions: bench press 8, lane agility 11.65, 3/4 court sprint 3.27

Douglas was a much more productive CBB player. Douglas is and Sessions are exactly the same size, with Douglas having the edge in reach, strength and quickness (at least at the time of the draft).

You have two very similar physical players.
What Sessions has is a (small) sampling of NBA games where he put up good numbers at PG. NBA experience bad team or not should not be discounted.
What Douglas has is his play against high level of competition, his age and experience and he is one of the best defenders in CBB. Something we are in painful need of on the perimeter.

Summer league production doesnt mean much to me, but you can look at certain skills a player brings and Douglas did a a great job of getting into the paint at will and dishing to open shooters and scorers.

I just dont see Sessions as a big enough improvement over Duhon, Nate and Douglas to merit the signing and the money against next year's cap.

Wow, great post Fish. I, too, have a new perspective on Sessions and will think twice about him. From all appearances, DW is probably thinking along your lines.

Posted by fishmike:

look... Douglas was the guy that MDA and DW wanted. They openly admitted he was the reason they aquired the Laker's pick and that if Douglas wasnt available they were going to trade that pick away. They also paid good $$$ to get him so obviously there is some role or plan there for him. He can score, he can shoot, he's athletic and strong, he's an elite defender, he showed in SL he can get into the paint and pass to the open man and he was a clutch performer and single handedly won some big upset games.

We wont know if it translates until we see him play 40-50 games in the NBA but everything is there.

This is why we are interested in Sessions, but not willing to throw the bank at him. Session has about 80+ games (I think) to look at, and that grabs our interest, but Walsh has enough doubts about him so that we are pulling back from giving him the contract that he wants. You have to think that if the Knicks though Sessions was Nash2.0 they would give him the $5M for 25 years, but even with 80 games in the tank and a coach who knows him, Walsh is cautious and is sticking with his 2010 plan.

I like Douglas, but I would not build my team around the expectation that he will be a 35 MPG starting PG. He showed some PG ability that I did not think he had, and based on his college career, I figure he will be a good enough outside shooter, but I thought his defense was actually spotty (got to get rid of the gambling tendency) and he was a tentative (I'm being generous.) finisher at best when he decided to "attack" the basket.

IMO, I can't see Douglas as a factor in deciding how much the Knicks are willing to give Sessions. I get the sense that Walsh feels there is nobody out their who will consider taking on the contracts of Jeffries and Curry, and with the Lee and Nate situations still open, Walsh is afraid that if he inks Sessions for more than he wants to give him, it will hurt his chances for the big fish coming out next year.

I don't think this is a Douglas/Sessions issue- it is still all about the cap and future acquisitions.

imho, knicks don't have sessions b/c they want him on the cheap so they don't mess up the 2010 plan. i don't think it has anything to do with toney dougles.

Not sure I would be pinning my hopes on Douglas. He has potential, but if a starting caliber pg is out there for cheap, you go get him. I agree that, at this point, we will probably go into the season with Nate, Duhon, and Douglas as our pgs.

I think Douglas = Marcus Banks with much better scoring instincts right out of the box. Remember MDA liked Banks and really wanted to use him to back up Nash and for defense in 3 guard sets

I don't know--when he faced some bigger guys he played mighty small. Also a few air balls from 6 feet isnt an easy accomplishment--that means you are scared. This guy could easily be Troy Bell 2 with less hops and better D.


When he scores 44 in a pro NBA game--dishes out 20 assists or takes down 10 rebounds--then we can say what he is or is not.

Posted by fishmike:

This is a good post... It should factor bigtime.

Douglas: 6'1 with a 6'6 wingspan, standing reach 8' 1.5
Sessions: 6'2 with a 6'4 wingpan, standing reach 8' 1.5

Douglas: max vert 32.5
Sessions: max vert 33.5

Douglas: bench press 15, lane agility 10.63, 3/4 court sprint 3.03
Sessions: bench press 8, lane agility 11.65, 3/4 court sprint 3.27

Douglas was a much more productive CBB player. Douglas is and Sessions are exactly the same size, with Douglas having the edge in reach, strength and quickness (at least at the time of the draft).

You have two very similar physical players.
What Sessions has is a (small) sampling of NBA games where he put up good numbers at PG. NBA experience bad team or not should not be discounted.
What Douglas has is his play against high level of competition, his age and experience and he is one of the best defenders in CBB. Something we are in painful need of on the perimeter.

Summer league production doesnt mean much to me, but you can look at certain skills a player brings and Douglas did a a great job of getting into the paint at will and dishing to open shooters and scorers.

I just dont see Sessions as a big enough improvement over Duhon, Nate and Douglas to merit the signing and the money against next year's cap.

He had some great games against us, damn near played like an all star, he also had a few triple doubles to his credit, but he was really not that consistant, and was really bad in back to back games.

At this point it's a toss up, and the longer he sits( in limbo) the less attrative (no homo) he looks

Posted by knicks1248:

He had some great games against us, damn near played like an all star, he also had a few triple doubles to his credit, but he was really not that consistant, and was really bad in back to back games.

At this point it's a toss up, and the longer he sits( in limbo) the less attrative (no spelling) he looks

Corrected it for you.

Billups was the starting PG on back to back 50 win teams. Yes... they had Garnett but he was still a part of winning program. Sessions has a years worth of good stats on a bad team. If we value that so much why arent we more gaga over Lee and Nate?

If getting Sessions costs the Knicks the opportunity to get Lebron, then they should say NO to Sessions. How many fans would be calling for Donnie's head if that were to happen? Donnie is simply trying to leverage the absolute 1 thing that sends the Knick Franchise back to relevance and that is getting Lebron to wear the Knick uniform, for the next 6 years! Nothing else matters and for that matter, no other players matter. Keeping the cap space is the ONLY thing that matters.