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Does Cap Space The Way It Is now tend to hurt teams like the Knicks more than other teams? What if they raised it another 25 mil
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Papabear
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8/25/2009  6:27 PM
Papabear Says
I believe cap limits hurt teams like the Knicks more than other teams. The Knicks can afford to pay out 100 million and still make money. Then they could bring in the best just like the Yanks. With the Yanks money is no object. Thats why they rule.
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orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  6:33 PM
Well, the Yankees are far from ruling.

And I don't know if it would hurt the Knicks. How does the cap situation work? Can a team that is over the cap sign a free agent that puts them even more over the cap? If that's the case, then it doesn't hurt them, because they would spend either way.

But if the cap somehow restricts them from signing a player to anything other than an MLE, then it will hurt them because they want to spend adn they will be restricted from doing so.
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  6:45 PM
Of course. The salary cap was created specifically to save the owners from themselves and their overpaying ways and to neutralize big market teams...especially NY.

It always kills me to hear pundits, owners, fans whine about competitive balance and the unfair advantage big money cities have over smaller markets. So in essence, they will pine for socialism in sports to keep things fair and redistribute income among billionaires...yet you will see the same cats on Fox News screaming with anger and ready to incite violence over making health care affordable for everyone.
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orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:02 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Of course. The salary cap was created specifically to save the owners from themselves and their overpaying ways and to neutralize big market teams...especially NY.

It always kills me to hear pundits, owners, fans whine about competitive balance and the unfair advantage big money cities have over smaller markets. So in essence, they will pine for socialism in sports to keep things fair and redistribute income among billionaires...yet you will see the same cats on Fox News screaming with anger and ready to incite violence over making health care affordable for everyone.

Flawed logic because in the NBA, everyone is an NBA athlete and everyone is an NBA level exec or team staff.

In real life, not all groups of people are the same, each with unique needs, wants, etc., necessary for a happy life.
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:12 PM
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:

Of course. The salary cap was created specifically to save the owners from themselves and their overpaying ways and to neutralize big market teams...especially NY.

It always kills me to hear pundits, owners, fans whine about competitive balance and the unfair advantage big money cities have over smaller markets. So in essence, they will pine for socialism in sports to keep things fair and redistribute income among billionaires...yet you will see the same cats on Fox News screaming with anger and ready to incite violence over making health care affordable for everyone.

Flawed logic because in the NBA, everyone is an NBA athlete and everyone is an NBA level exec or team staff.

In real life, not all groups of people are the same, each with unique needs, wants, etc., necessary for a happy life.

You just threw that against the wall hoping it would stick.

If everything is "the same" why do you need to create rules to ensure balance and eliminate "unfair advantages"

Everybody in professional sports is not the same. Thats absurd. Its just they have the clout and the ability to manipulate fans into supporting systems that they wouldnt in worlds outside of professional sports. And owners are shameless enough to whine for "tenets of socialism" to protect their billions and self-interests, yet hypocritically preach otherwise for the less fortunate.

Not a good look for America.
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orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:14 PM
Look I didn't throw much at the wall.

Your next to last sentence is exactly my point-- there are no 'less fortunate' in the NBA. A truly 'less fortunate' team would cease to exist, as has happened in the past. For the purposes of this argument, the playing field WITHIN the league IS equal (the players, coaches, execs, etc., are all of roughly equal talent, potential, capability). Not so the case in society at large. How can I attempt to equate a Jesuit and an Islamist, just for example, in general society?

I think what I am trying to say is that the foundation upon which 'NBA socialism' is based is uniform, so it is naturally suited for this structure. The foundations of our general society, our population, are not uniform. Each group has their own wants, wishes, needs, and so on. This is why socialism is a bad idea at large.

[Edited by - orangeblobman on 08-25-2009 7:18 PM]
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:21 PM
Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:24 PM
and furthermore, I think things like quality of life and health care are pretty uniform among humans. Yeah, I'm sure if I offered somebody a stack of money and health care they would tell me "not interested"
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orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:25 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.

Look, the details of either of our arguments might not be so well tuned, but how can you be so dense to deny my last paragraph?

NBA = uniform base (players, coaches, execs., are all 'NBA-quality')

World = nonuniform base (religious groups, sects, even professions, are not all the same in interests, needs, or levels of ability)

I don't think this is very contentious stuff, and please how is it wrong?
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:32 PM
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:

Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.

Look, the details of either of our arguments might not be so well tuned, but how can you be so dense to deny my last paragraph?

NBA = uniform base (players, coaches, execs., are all 'NBA-quality')

World = nonuniform base (religious groups, sects, even professions, are not all the same in interests, needs, or levels of ability)

I don't think this is very contentious stuff, and please how is it wrong?

I explained your last paragraph in the post above.

The NBA isnt imposing religion on other owners...just redistributing money and creating rules to promote their success and the health of their franchises. Nobody is going to turn down money and reject things that are in their best interest in the outside world. Except for the poor, lost, uneducated souls that have allowed the Fox News cats and conservative radio to argue against their own self-interest --- but thats a whole new can of worms.

My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:35 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:

Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.

Look, the details of either of our arguments might not be so well tuned, but how can you be so dense to deny my last paragraph?

NBA = uniform base (players, coaches, execs., are all 'NBA-quality')

World = nonuniform base (religious groups, sects, even professions, are not all the same in interests, needs, or levels of ability)

I don't think this is very contentious stuff, and please how is it wrong?

I explained your last paragraph in the post above.

The NBA isnt imposing religion on other owners...just redistributing money and creating rules to promote their success and the health of their franchises. Nobody is going to turn down money and reject things that are in their best interest in the outside world. Except for the poor, lost, uneducated souls that have allowed the Fox News cats and conservative radio to argue against their own self-interest --- but thats a whole new can of worms.

Find me a 'poor, lost, or uneducated' club in the NBA. Even the minor-market clubs are owned, held, or whatever, by some multi-billion dollar corporation, conglomorate.
WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:45 PM
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:

Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.

Look, the details of either of our arguments might not be so well tuned, but how can you be so dense to deny my last paragraph?

NBA = uniform base (players, coaches, execs., are all 'NBA-quality')

World = nonuniform base (religious groups, sects, even professions, are not all the same in interests, needs, or levels of ability)

I don't think this is very contentious stuff, and please how is it wrong?

I explained your last paragraph in the post above.

The NBA isnt imposing religion on other owners...just redistributing money and creating rules to promote their success and the health of their franchises. Nobody is going to turn down money and reject things that are in their best interest in the outside world. Except for the poor, lost, uneducated souls that have allowed the Fox News cats and conservative radio to argue against their own self-interest --- but thats a whole new can of worms.

Find me a 'poor, lost, or uneducated' club in the NBA. Even the minor-market clubs are owned, held, or whatever, by some multi-billion dollar corporation, conglomorate.

Fair enough, lol, there are a lot more stupid people in the country than in the NBA or those that are associated with sports or are paid to follow them.

But thats not my point. The point is hypocrisy. That people will accept one system that protects the uber-wealthy, but not that same system that can benefit mankind as a whole.

And that hypocrisy is direct because the same corporate forces that want "socialism" for themselves will argue against it for others. The poor uneducated souls are following the messages sent to them by corporate America.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:50 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by orangeblobman:
Posted by sebstar:

Thats not true at all. Owners from small markets argue all the time that they couldnt exist without a salary cap and income distribution. Especially in baseball. Stop being so dense.

Look, the details of either of our arguments might not be so well tuned, but how can you be so dense to deny my last paragraph?

NBA = uniform base (players, coaches, execs., are all 'NBA-quality')

World = nonuniform base (religious groups, sects, even professions, are not all the same in interests, needs, or levels of ability)

I don't think this is very contentious stuff, and please how is it wrong?

I explained your last paragraph in the post above.

The NBA isnt imposing religion on other owners...just redistributing money and creating rules to promote their success and the health of their franchises. Nobody is going to turn down money and reject things that are in their best interest in the outside world. Except for the poor, lost, uneducated souls that have allowed the Fox News cats and conservative radio to argue against their own self-interest --- but thats a whole new can of worms.

Find me a 'poor, lost, or uneducated' club in the NBA. Even the minor-market clubs are owned, held, or whatever, by some multi-billion dollar corporation, conglomorate.

Fair enough, lol, there are a lot more stupid people in the country than in the NBA or those that are associated with sports or are paid to follow them.

But thats not my point. The point is hypocrisy. That people will accept one system that protects the uber-wealthy, but not that same system that can benefit mankind as a whole.

And that hypocrisy is direct because the same corporate forces that want "socialism" for themselves will argue against it for others. The poor uneducated souls are following the messages sent to them by corporate America.

I think this is as far as you and I can go with this because we are so diametrically opposed. I will consider this hypocrisy as long as you consider what I said about 'uniform' and 'nonuniform' bases for a socialist system.

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sebstar
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8/25/2009  7:57 PM
I think where I went afoul was invoking socialism. Its just a perverted word nowadays I might as well have said death.

The more appropriate focus would be income re-distribution and creating a system that brings those with the most back down to the rest of the pack to promote balance and fairness for the rest.
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orangeblobman
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8/25/2009  7:59 PM
Posted by sebstar:

I think where I went afoul was invoking socialism. Its just a perverted word nowadays I might as well have said death.

The more appropriate focus would be income re-distribution and creating a system that brings those with the most back down to the rest of the pack to promote balance and fairness for the rest.

That sounds worse than socialism.

Re-distribution on what basis? Certainly not merit. When was the last time a Lion re-distributed anything to a house cat? In nature, and this is what dictates us humans more than any abstract concept, there are weak and strong.

I am weaker than a lot of people, but stronger that a lot, too. This is the same with everyone. I have no problem in admitting that there are much stronger, more worthwhile, intelligent, etc., individuals in the world-- and the key word is individuals, because this is strictly based on individual merit, and our society should remain so as much as possible.

edit:

To me the issue of greater consequence is where one started, not where one ends up, in life, and his worth should be determined on how far he has, through his own labours, progressed. This progress should than be passed on to the following generation so that, over many eras, that individual's line is strengthened and made more resistant to extinction.

Now, I see how one might say 'well, we should level the field and start anew, from here on we measure', but that is not practical nor realistic to expect. Because who chooses where to draw the starting line?

I'm not very clear on what all this means, but to me it points to a strict adherence to some type of evolutionary individualism that will, maybe in many millions of years, give birth to a Perfect Human, for as much as 1+1 = 2 is TRUE, then the Ultimate Truth should one day be attainable.

And how can you possibly justify 'bringing some down' to better some others? That makes no sense and is counter productive, humanely speaking, because that would serve to cut progress where progress has been made. It's a step-backwards. I don't understand.

[Edited by - orangeblobman on 08-25-2009 8:06 PM]
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sebstar
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8/25/2009  8:18 PM
well, what I gleam from what you wrote is a lot of social-darwinism stuff that I completely reject. But we dont need to go there. You're not going to agree with me and vice-versa.

but for all your outrage not only do sports owners argue for the things you throughly reject, but they have enacted rules to constitute such. Complete and utter hypocrisy.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
nyk4ever
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8/25/2009  9:10 PM
OBM.. although sometimes you write stuff that seriously make me shake my head, you're an interesting poster to say the least. I have no idea the half of what you said in your last post, but it was interesting none the less lol.
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arkrud
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8/26/2009  7:48 AM
People who contribute more to society and progress should get more wealth and power.
If they will be deprived of what tehy deserve, society will implode and degrade (see former USSR, German Nazi Raih); or they will take their share by brutal force (a bunch of right dictatorships).
Democracy and capitalism is the natural way to give everybody what he/she is worth and make the most talented and successful individuals to rule the society.
It is not about to share the static pie (socialism) which will diminish for all with no intensives to grow the wealth; but to grow the pie to have small and big pieces owned by people grow.


[Edited by - arkrud on 08-26-2009 07:48 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 08-26-2009 07:49 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 08-26-2009 07:50 AM]

[Edited by - arkrud on 08-26-2009 07:50 AM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Papabear
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8/26/2009  6:08 PM
Papabear Says
I think that the way the NBA is designed is to keep team like the Knicks down. One thing I must say though if it takes getting rid of everyone who is on the team now in order to get a real superstar, we must do it now. Because without that main man you are almost doomed. Without Kobe the lakers would have won nothing. Phil Jackson is a great coach and I don't want to take that away from him. The only way he would be deemed the greatest coach of all time is to get a team like the Knicks and build it and win a title. he would then be the greatest coach of all times.
Papabear
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8/26/2009  6:17 PM
Posted by Papabear:

Papabear Says
I think that the way the NBA is designed is to keep team like the Knicks down. One thing I must say though if it takes getting rid of everyone who is on the team now in order to get a real superstar, we must do it now. Because without that main man you are almost doomed. Without Kobe the lakers would have won nothing. Phil Jackson is a great coach and I don't want to take that away from him. The only way he would be deemed the greatest coach of all time is to get a team like the Knicks and build it and win a title. he would then be the greatest coach of all times.

The knicks are where they are because isiah thomas put them there. did the league tell him to pick up stephon marbury, anfernee hardawy, jamal crawford, jalen rose, steve francis, eddy curry, zach randolph, jared jeffries, etc? i think not.
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