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Does our next starting PG need to be a good three-pt shooter?
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kam77
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7/28/2009  5:29 PM
On paper... a 33.3% 3pt shooter is as good as a 50% FG shooter.

BUT: The FG shooter probably gets to the line more often

AND: The 3pt shooter is not usually going to get their own rebound

IMO more defensive boards happen off of a missed three. and you can trigger a fast break off a long rebound leading to an easy bucket for the other team.

SO... when does a 3pt shooter become worth it? How good do they have to be? 35% 40% 45%? I have heard 40% to be considered "good" 3pt shooting.. but given the negatives outlined above... I'm not so sure 40% is anything more than a wash.

I say all this because people say that a D'antoni PG needs to be a 3pt threat. I disagree. I think its far better to have a pass first PG who looks to involve his team first before looking for himself. A PG who can penetrate into the lane for a floating layup, can blow by his man for a fingeroll, or can drive and kick to open teammates... I think this is the sort of point guard we should be looking at. And if he has any kind of defensive ability, I'll even take that skill over the skill of making 40% of your threes.

Threes are overrated.
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Bonn1997
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7/28/2009  5:34 PM
Posted by kam77:

On paper... a 33.3% 3pt shooter is as good as a 50% FG shooter.

BUT: The FG shooter probably gets to the line more often

AND: The 3pt shooter is not usually going to get their own rebound

IMO more defensive boards happen off of a missed three. and you can trigger a fast break off a long rebound leading to an easy bucket for the other team.

SO... when does a 3pt shooter become worth it? How good do they have to be? 35% 40% 45%? I have heard 40% to be considered "good" 3pt shooting.. but given the negatives outlined above... I'm not so sure 40% is anything more than a wash.

I say all this because people say that a D'antoni PG needs to be a 3pt threat. I disagree. I think its far better to have a pass first PG who looks to involve his team first before looking for himself. A PG who can penetrate into the lane for a floating layup, can blow by his man for a fingeroll, or can drive and kick to open teammates... I think this is the sort of point guard we should be looking at. And if he has any kind of defensive ability, I'll even take that skill over the skill of making 40% of your threes.

Threes are overrated.

Actually I think mid-range jumpers are overrated from a statistical standpoint. You're not gonna be rewarded with a third point if you make it but you're not gonna shoot a high percentage either and you're probably not gonna draw a foul. People talk a lot about the mid range shooting game but you really should be shooting mid range jumpers only if you're very wide open or the shot clock is about to expire.
JohnWallace44
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7/28/2009  5:54 PM
When Duhon hit deep treys it was usually a huge boost to the team, so I wouldn't want to miss that this year.

You could replace some of that by having a point guard with better ability to get into the paint, but it shouldn't be an either or.
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SupremeCommander
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7/28/2009  5:58 PM
I think it's important that a be a competent three point shooter because otherwise defenders play off the point a bit more, play softer defense on the point... and gamble on the lanes more, clog things up, focus on the pick an droll/high screen, or take the baseline away. Other teams know the point is looking to initiate immediately, so if I'm the other team's coach, I pray a 33 percent shooter will be asked to shoot at crucial moments.
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Pharzeone
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7/28/2009  6:01 PM
I think the point guard should be able to be a serious threat on the perimeter. While Duhon shot the 3 well last season, he didn't do it enough to keep defenses honest. Teams were willing to let him take the open 3 pointer because they didn't fear his penetration in the paint. I agree JW, you need a guard that does both and it shouldn't be a compromise.
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McK1
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7/28/2009  6:16 PM
Posted by kam77:

.

I say all this because people say that a D'antoni PG needs to be a 3pt threat.

Threes are overrated.

Isn't D'Antoni the one who wants his point guard to be a 3pt threat?

Like others have said being a perimeter threat is fine enough. A point guard whose range you have to respect out to 20ft would be great for us fans IMO.

Paul and William don't shoot an overabundance of 3's but they do shoot and make alot of mid range jumpers
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Nalod
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7/28/2009  6:35 PM

Point needs to spread the defense. Leave him out there and he should hit it. Come get him and he should blow buy you and if the defense shifts he created a nice advantage.

Yeah, PG should be deadly from out there. Nash is, and its why he is a two time MVP. HE ain't the quickest, tallest, or a strong finisher but he has the total package!
EnySpree
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7/28/2009  6:43 PM
All that matters is a PG's ability to run the offense and make creative decisions when the time calls for it. If just shooting the 3 was important then Nate should be the point guard flat out....

Duhon hit some threes but a lot of them were forced up because Duhon couldn't advance the rock. How many WTF 3's did he hoist up at least a foot or 2 away from line last year? Duhon has no creativity in his game. He can't breakdown his man at all. Only way he gets to the basket is if he gets a straight sprint. He also has no clue when he's open inside. He almost always kicks it back to the 3pt line when he has a lay-up or interior pass he could make.....he's a bum.
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Markji
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7/28/2009  7:02 PM
MDa's game revolves around the 3 pt shot. We need a few perimeter players who can hit the 3pt shot at 40%. Last year the Knicks took more 3 pt shots than any other team, but our % made was 19th out of 30 teams. Top 3 teams with 3 pt attempts

Team..3Pt..atmp.. made.. Pct

Knicks 27.9... 10.0... 36.0% (19th out of 30teams)
Magic 26.2... 10.0... 38.1%
NJNets 21.2... 8.0... 37.6%
|
Bobcats 16.3 ... 6.0... 36.6% (least attempts)
Celtics 16.5 ... 6.6... 39.7% (best % made)

The Knicks took 6.7 more 3 pt shots than the 3rd highest team (Nets) and 11.4 more 3 pt shots than the lowest (Bobcats). We take a lot of 3 point shots and we need players who can make them.

2007-08
Steve -Nash 4.7 ... 2.1 ... 47.0% (top %)

2006-07
Phoenixteam 24.0... 9.6... 40.0% (top team)

MDA's teams do great when they have a bunch of 3 pt shooters. Look at above. Along with Nash they had Bell and Barbosa; and Marcus Banks and Marion did OK as well, from 3 pt.

Nash is great because he is both a great ball handler and distributor AND a great shooter. Our point guard should ideally be in the same mold. If not, then we need to have both the SG and the SF be great 3 pt shooters. Right now we don't have a SG who can shoot the 3 consistantly and only Gallinari at the SF.


[Edited by - markji on 07-28-2009 7:12 PM]
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sebstar
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7/28/2009  7:15 PM
Posted by Nalod:


Point needs to spread the defense. Leave him out there and he should hit it. Come get him and he should blow buy you and if the defense shifts he created a nice advantage.

Yeah, PG should be deadly from out there. Nash is, and its why he is a two time MVP. HE ain't the quickest, tallest, or a strong finisher but he has the total package!

This.

Thread was definitely born out of the fact that Sessions sucks from three. MDA might overplay the ability when it comes to evaluating talent and whatnot, but we cant completely undervalue it and marginalize it. Why wouldnt you want your PG to be able to shoot threes?
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EnySpree
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7/28/2009  7:32 PM
PG's job is to get his teams offense going and get his team the best shot possible.

A point guard, just like everyone else on the floot should be able hit the open jumper.

3pt shooting....has nothing to do with the task at hand. Personally I don't want my point guard jacking 3pters. I want them to shoot them only if open....their energy needs to be spent getting his teamates involved according to the coaches game plan....

Annnnnyyyyybody but Duhon!!! Even Watson is better than Duhon.
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sebstar
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7/28/2009  7:45 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

PG's job is to get his teams offense going and get his team the best shot possible.

A point guard, just like everyone else on the floot should be able hit the open jumper.

3pt shooting....has nothing to do with the task at hand. Personally I don't want my point guard jacking 3pters. I want them to shoot them only if open....their energy needs to be spent getting his teamates involved according to the coaches game plan....

Annnnnyyyyybody but Duhon!!! Even Watson is better than Duhon.

Yeah, I agree Duhon is trash.

But there is a difference between a trigger happy, three-obsessed PG and one who is a threat and keeps the defense honest.

If a PG cant shoot threes, then that is some significant real estate that defenders dont even have to worry about. Defenders can sag and better defend against the drive.

Three point shooting ability is definitely an element I want out of my PG.

[Edited by - sebstar on 07-28-2009 7:46 PM]
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McK1
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7/28/2009  7:53 PM
watson signed with Indy
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Ira
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7/28/2009  8:13 PM
Shooting threes is important to any offense and, as Markji pointed out, especially important to our offense. There's no way around it. When a guard can't hit threes it makes it harder on the whole offense.
EnySpree
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7/28/2009  9:00 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by EnySpree:

PG's job is to get his teams offense going and get his team the best shot possible.

A point guard, just like everyone else on the floot should be able hit the open jumper.

3pt shooting....has nothing to do with the task at hand. Personally I don't want my point guard jacking 3pters. I want them to shoot them only if open....their energy needs to be spent getting his teamates involved according to the coaches game plan....

Annnnnyyyyybody but Duhon!!! Even Watson is better than Duhon.

Yeah, I agree Duhon is trash.

But there is a difference between a trigger happy, three-obsessed PG and one who is a threat and keeps the defense honest.

If a PG cant shoot threes, then that is some significant real estate that defenders dont even have to worry about. Defenders can sag and better defend against the drive.

Three point shooting ability is definitely an element I want out of my PG.

[Edited by - sebstar on 07-28-2009 7:46 PM]

To me its just the open shot...gotta be able to stick it.

D'antoni needs the players around the pg to hit three's....the point guard has to be able to run the pick and roll and freelance in D'antoni's offense more than anything. That's the bottom line.

I can't post vids right now but in some of Sessions mix vids he gets the rock open for three and drives takes his man off the dribble then hits his scorer in the corner who was Charlie V for 3 in one vid. The Knicks need that. Miller is good for that he can be wide open but he would create and get his teamates the shot. PG has to feed the scorers hence pass first.

D'antoni doesn't really run plays but there is an understanding of where guys will be at all times. In Pheonix they all picked up on that easy. Amare and Marion were getting dunks all day. The shooters were open all day.

Pg sets the table and that's all we need imho.
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EnySpree
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7/28/2009  9:02 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by EnySpree:

PG's job is to get his teams offense going and get his team the best shot possible.

A point guard, just like everyone else on the floot should be able hit the open jumper.

3pt shooting....has nothing to do with the task at hand. Personally I don't want my point guard jacking 3pters. I want them to shoot them only if open....their energy needs to be spent getting his teamates involved according to the coaches game plan....

Annnnnyyyyybody but Duhon!!! Even Watson is better than Duhon.

Yeah, I agree Duhon is trash.

But there is a difference between a trigger happy, three-obsessed PG and one who is a threat and keeps the defense honest.

If a PG cant shoot threes, then that is some significant real estate that defenders dont even have to worry about. Defenders can sag and better defend against the drive.

Three point shooting ability is definitely an element I want out of my PG.

[Edited by - sebstar on 07-28-2009 7:46 PM]

To me its just the open shot...gotta be able to stick it.

D'antoni needs the players around the pg to hit three's....the point guard has to be able to run the pick and roll and freelance in D'antoni's offense more than anything. That's the bottom line.

I can't post vids right now but in some of Sessions mix vids he gets the rock open for three and drives takes his man off the dribble then hits his scorer in the corner who was Charlie V for 3 in one vid. The Knicks need that. Miller is good for that he can be wide open but he would create and get his teamates the shot. PG has to feed the scorers hence pass first.

D'antoni doesn't really run plays but there is an understanding of where guys will be at all times. In Pheonix they all picked up on that easy. Amare and Marion were getting dunks all day. The shooters were open all day.

Pg sets the table and that's all we need imho.
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Markji
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7/28/2009  11:08 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by EnySpree:

PG's job is to get his teams offense going and get his team the best shot possible.

A point guard, just like everyone else on the floot should be able hit the open jumper.

3pt shooting....has nothing to do with the task at hand. Personally I don't want my point guard jacking 3pters. I want them to shoot them only if open....their energy needs to be spent getting his teamates involved according to the coaches game plan....

Annnnnyyyyybody but Duhon!!! Even Watson is better than Duhon.

Yeah, I agree Duhon is trash.

But there is a difference between a trigger happy, three-obsessed PG and one who is a threat and keeps the defense honest.

If a PG cant shoot threes, then that is some significant real estate that defenders dont even have to worry about. Defenders can sag and better defend against the drive.

Three point shooting ability is definitely an element I want out of my PG.

[Edited by - sebstar on 07-28-2009 7:46 PM]

To me its just the open shot...gotta be able to stick it.

D'antoni needs the players around the pg to hit three's....the point guard has to be able to run the pick and roll and freelance in D'antoni's offense more than anything. That's the bottom line.

I can't post vids right now but in some of Sessions mix vids he gets the rock open for three and drives takes his man off the dribble then hits his scorer in the corner who was Charlie V for 3 in one vid. The Knicks need that. Miller is good for that he can be wide open but he would create and get his teamates the shot. PG has to feed the scorers hence pass first.

D'antoni doesn't really run plays but there is an understanding of where guys will be at all times. In Pheonix they all picked up on that easy. Amare and Marion were getting dunks all day. The shooters were open all day.

Pg sets the table and that's all we need imho.
I agree with that ...and ....If the PG can also hit a 3 then that really opens it up for the rest of the team. You need the other players on the perimeter to hit the 3 as well. Right now we don't have them other than Gallinari if he is healthy.

Toney Douglas in SL, did just what you wanted of a point guard. He drove past his man seemingly at will; the defense collapsed on him; Douglas dished it out to the open man for a 3; and .....they missed most of the time. That is why I we need players who can hit the 3 consistantly. It is also a vote for TD to be the 2nd PG. and allow him PT to develop this year.

If you get rid of Duhon, our best 3 pt shooter from last season, you need to replace his 3 pt output with someone else who can shoot it, whether the PG or a SG and SF.



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EnySpree
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7/28/2009  11:42 PM
Yeah 3pt shooting from the point is an obvious asset...but the dudes available get the PG duties done...Tinsley/sessions is not a significant threat but they can heat up and are skilled/smart enough to know how to get the better shot.

Toney Douglas is real ball player. He's also a rookie learning to play point guard now in the NBA....I'm not willing to crown him the sole back-up.

I think Nate needs to solidify his role as 6th man....and Duhon needs to stop pretending he's a point guard. The guy is a shooting guard imho....forget the stats....his skillset says he's a shooting guard.
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McK1
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7/29/2009  12:04 AM
D'Antoni needs Steve Nash
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7/29/2009  2:03 AM
You hit from 3 and it weakens a defense. There's just no way that a defender can effectively stay with a PG who hits 3's and also help out on D inside. This is why even tho Curry is a fat slob, if he's in there and we have guys like Gallo and Harrington out there with let's say Almond, you have a serious advantage, cuz no one can stop Curry inside one on one and if they help guys like Gallo and Almond are snipers from long range. The only thing that messes it up is Curry not being able to pass back out. This is why a Nash type player is needed. That kind of PG holds on to the ball and doesn't just dump it inside cuz he knows that a C like Curry isn't where you start your offense. He's more of where you might finish it after drawing defenders out to the perimeter. That only happens if your PG is a real threat to hit the 3.
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