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What can Keith Van Horn do to get some respect?
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knickgeek
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12/8/2003  12:13 PM
Getting a name meant I had to fight. There was no way out of it. I got beat up a few times, but I never backed down. "You back down once," Sapo told me, "and you'll be backin' down f' the res' of your life..."

-- Ernesto Quinonez "Bodega Dreams"


Reading Marc Berman's article in the post got me to thinking - what could Keith Van Horn do now, assuming he would acknowledge that he has to do more to improve his game? We all know the rap on him is that he's soft. Many would argue that Keith did the right thing by walking away - the other guy gets a technical, the Knicks get a free-throw. But for many it just confirms the impression that Keith is soft.

I didn't see the incident or the rest of the game, but the article says he only scored two points after that incident so it clearly got to him. Was Keith upset that Robinson doesn't like him?

I mean, I've seen Keith Van Horn get a little fired up when he gets going, but has he ever gotten a technical? Has he ever cursed, gloated, goaded, insulted or displayed any other imature masculine traits?
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hDavis
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12/8/2003  12:23 PM
Van horn shoulda hit him in the teeth.
I think on tuesday against the lakers van horn should go out and pick a fight with shaq so shaq gets ejected in the first quarter. That way the knicks can play the lakers without shaq and Van horn can get a tough guy image that everyone wants him to have.
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jazz74
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12/8/2003  12:28 PM
he does not have to. he is just simply not that type of guy which is fine. what i am not fine about is that the rest of the knicks, especially ward who should know better, did not stick up for van horn. look at houston. he was labeled soft throughout his career and early in his knick days, people tried to push him around but houston still managed to play well and it would stop because oakley and lj would not stand for it too long. he knew someone had his back. now these knicks are scared on the court. i always knew weatherspoon was a punk anyway but ward? even thomas should have sent a message which he would have done under the van gundy regime. are the knicks softer than we thought?
Vmart
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12/8/2003  12:42 PM
KT send a message he is the softest Knicks of them all. Just because he has crazy eyes and makes a dirty face people think he is tough, but he isn't. The team has taken on the coaches attitude, Chaney is soft his practices are soft his coaching skills are soft the Knicks team is just that soft. They have no passion or hunger. They don't have attitude that is suppose to go with the NYK team. With that said this team is plain and simple soft, they don't stick for each other and they definitely don't fight for each other. A team like that is not a team but a bunch of individuals out for themselves.
HARDCOREKNICKSFAN
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12/8/2003  12:44 PM
The Knicks aren't softer than I thought. I have been saying for a long time that we need more fire on this team, not less. When Cliff Robinson punked Van Horn like that, I knew that the team had changed. The article in the Post was one of the rare good ones in that paper.
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Silverfuel
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12/8/2003  12:47 PM
Everyone is saying it so I want to say it too.

This is sad. What has happened to the knicks!? They were the epitome of physical basketball and now they get pushed around like bitches! Not cool.

VMart: KT is pretty tough. He really does not back down a lot. Remember Rodman getting shoved to the ground? Remember when he got in Ben's face trying to get a fight started and get Ben ejected? He's not Oakley or LJ but he aint a *****!

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knickgeek
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12/8/2003  2:26 PM
Posted by jazz74:

he does not have to. he is just simply not that type of guy which is fine. what i am not fine about is that the rest of the knicks, especially ward who should know better, did not stick up for van horn. look at houston. he was labeled soft throughout his career and early in his knick days, people tried to push him around but houston still managed to play well and it would stop because oakley and lj would not stand for it too long. he knew someone had his back. now these knicks are scared on the court. i always knew weatherspoon was a punk anyway but ward? even thomas should have sent a message which he would have done under the van gundy regime. are the knicks softer than we thought?

I agree that the rest of the Knicks should stick up for him, but it is appears that even his teammates dislike him.

Now if KVH had gone and dropped another 20 points on GS that could have been the best revenge, but he didn't. He faded away.

Is Oak-man playing for anyone? I remember reading an article that he still wanted to play...
martin
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12/8/2003  3:01 PM
I guess this is a damned if you do and damned if you don't kind of situation for KVH. Supposed KVH does push Robinson back and draws a double technical along with Cliff and the Knicks end up with a tie score at the end of regulation? He'd be labeled a dumb player. Knicks win by one in regulation and he makes the smartest play of the night.

I thought that another Knick player should have stepped in or given an appropriate tough foul later in the game, without getting the unnecessary T.
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downdawgy
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12/8/2003  3:32 PM
van horn took about 2 more shots from that point [of shove ].he hit one. he fouled robinson once and got two rebounds. his teamates didnot come to his aide,his teamates did not get him the ball.the game turned on a turnover from witherspoon,followed by a witherspoon miss.throw in a ward and a thomas turnover or 2 and wards inability to stay in front of his man at the end of games and we loose.this team needs a leader a floor general.as much as i like thomas's effort this year.where was he when an enforcer is needed ? what role does a 6'8" 275 lb guy have on this team if he cant stick up for teammates? your offensive guys [kvh,houston type guys] are never the enforcers.its not their personalities so that role falls to someone else.if you are spoon thomas harrington since you don't excell at anything else you might want to try establishing some physicalness.
OasisBU
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12/8/2003  4:12 PM
I'll tell you what would get KVH and H20 more respect, if they walked into Layden's office and offered to take pay cuts in order to sign a marquee FA in the off season. Shandon, Eisley, and al the other bloated contracts should too. But I forgot this is professional sports and a pay day is all that matters - not a championship.

A man can dream...

[Edited by - OasisBU on 12/08/2003 16:13:40]
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martin
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12/8/2003  4:19 PM
Posted by OasisBU:

I'll tell you what would get KVH and H20 more respect, if they walked into Layden's office and offered to take pay cuts in order to sign a marquee FA in the off season. Shandon, Eisley, and al the other bloated contracts should too. But I forgot this is professional sports and a pay day is all that matters - not a championship.

A man can dream...

[Edited by - OasisBU on 12/08/2003 16:13:40]

In deference to the players... if your boss ever said to you "you've been good lately, how about a 100% raise?" would you respond with "only 50% for me, I don't want to hold back the company"?

Not exactly the same scenario as the above, but you get my point.
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NYK8
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12/8/2003  4:30 PM
IMO,he was tryin to force a 2min.penalty. to shift the game to their favor.cuz he did stay in Cliffs face for a min.dont think hes that soft cuz one of these days he will shoot the five.
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martin
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12/8/2003  4:36 PM
Posted by NYK8:

IMO,he was tryin to force a 2min.penalty. to shift the game to their favor.cuz he did stay in Cliffs face for a min.dont think hes that soft cuz one of these days he will shoot the five.

I don't know what this means, but I think I agree with it.
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OldFan
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12/8/2003  5:21 PM
I agree KVH is not the type to get in someones face and I don't want him to be - he's just not built that way. I would prefer the Cyde approach. Being old I remember a game where Phil Chenier elbowed Clyde in the head - and Frazier had absolutely no response - except to rain about 10 fade aways - it was beatiful.

I disagree with the opinion that Kurt Thomas isn't tough. I doubt if the guy is bigger then 6'8" 245 and he has no lift - but he is averaging double digit boards - you don't do that in the NBA unless you're tough. As far as him not backing up Van Horn - he's been told to calm down for the last 4 years so it's hard to complain that he didn't jump in.

Wards a guard and he's 6'2" the last time I saw him get into somebody Mr. Brown tossed him over his shoulder - and we all know where that got us.

Some physical toughness would not be a bad thing - but what this team really needs is MENTAL TOUGHNESS.
Caseloads
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12/8/2003  6:01 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by NYK8:

IMO,he was tryin to force a 2min.penalty. to shift the game to their favor.cuz he did stay in Cliffs face for a min.dont think hes that soft cuz one of these days he will shoot the five.

I don't know what this means, but I think I agree with it.
No clue what that is supposed to mean either, but it makes KVH sound tough... which he isn't
Caseloads
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12/8/2003  6:03 PM
Posted by OldFan:

I agree KVH is not the type to get in someones face and I don't want him to be - he's just not built that way. I would prefer the Cyde approach. Being old I remember a game where Phil Chenier elbowed Clyde in the head - and Frazier had absolutely no response - except to rain about 10 fade aways - it was beatiful.

I disagree with the opinion that Kurt Thomas isn't tough. I doubt if the guy is bigger then 6'8" 245 and he has no lift - but he is averaging double digit boards - you don't do that in the NBA unless you're tough. As far as him not backing up Van Horn - he's been told to calm down for the last 4 years so it's hard to complain that he didn't jump in.

Wards a guard and he's 6'2" the last time I saw him get into somebody Mr. Brown tossed him over his shoulder - and we all know where that got us.

Some physical toughness would not be a bad thing - but what this team really needs is MENTAL TOUGHNESS.
Ahh... Ward undercutting PJ Brown... PJ flip'ped Ward like his last name was Murray...
knickgeek
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12/8/2003  6:36 PM
Posted by OldFan:

I agree KVH is not the type to get in someones face and I don't want him to be - he's just not built that way. I would prefer the Cyde approach. Being old I remember a game where Phil Chenier elbowed Clyde in the head - and Frazier had absolutely no response - except to rain about 10 fade aways - it was beatiful.
...

Some physical toughness would not be a bad thing - but what this team really needs is MENTAL TOUGHNESS.

I agree. I think it would've been cool if Keith could have gone off and scored another twenty points on them. But that doesn't seem to be part of his game either.
Silverfuel
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12/8/2003  6:37 PM
Posted by martin:
In deference to the players... if your boss ever said to you "you've been good lately, how about a 100% raise?" would you respond with "only 50% for me, I don't want to hold back the company"?

Not exactly the same scenario as the above, but you get my point.

There is a difference. If I claimed that my goal was for the company to be the top producer of something or the top seller of something, I would definately take a pay cut. And thats when i'll be making 100,000 at the most every year. Athletes make millions and still dont take paycuts!

What is most annoying is, athletes claim that their number one priority is winning and money doesn't mean that much and blah blah. If you really want to win a chaimpionship, do what Karl Malone and Gary Payton did. Take pay cuts and bring people in or sign with a team for less money. But instead they ask for huge contracts and then they cry about not being able to win a championship.

A-Rod for example has been miserable for the last 2 years in Texas and its amazing that he actually won the MVP title this year but no one wants to give it to him because his team is terrible. Just like the Knicks roster now, Texas will never go anywhere with A-Rod's contract.
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martin
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12/8/2003  10:58 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by martin:
In deference to the players... if your boss ever said to you "you've been good lately, how about a 100% raise?" would you respond with "only 50% for me, I don't want to hold back the company"?

Not exactly the same scenario as the above, but you get my point.

There is a difference. If I claimed that my goal was for the company to be the top producer of something or the top seller of something, I would definately take a pay cut. And thats when i'll be making 100,000 at the most every year. Athletes make millions and still dont take paycuts!

What is most annoying is, athletes claim that their number one priority is winning and money doesn't mean that much and blah blah. If you really want to win a chaimpionship, do what Karl Malone and Gary Payton did. Take pay cuts and bring people in or sign with a team for less money. But instead they ask for huge contracts and then they cry about not being able to win a championship.


A few things:

- we will have to make the distinction between taking a pay cut and signing for a lower salary.

- we will have to take into consideration the difference between contracts and salaries.

- we will also have to take into consideration between signing a contract with your current team and signing with a different team.

Payton and Malone didn't take a pay cut, they chose to sign for less money for a different team. Players cannot alter their contracts. They can sign new ones and extend current ones.

The only situation where your logic applies is when a player signs for less when there is cap room to allow another player to sign simultaneously. Otherwise players sign for as much as they can; it's human nature (plus family, friends, accountants, lawyers and especially agents will not allow anything else).

This is why teams have GMs and assistant GMs - they are supposed to understand the cap and contracts and their intermingled consequences. GMs also have dumb fck owners who can mess up even the best of intentions.

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Silverfuel
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12/8/2003  11:13 PM
Salaries can be restructured if both sides agree in the middle of a contract.

If the athlete that makes $14 million a year tells the owner that he will take $9 million if the GM can find another player for $5 million that can help him win, and lets say it works under the cap and all that, they will find a way to make it work.

I'm not going for the technicalities here. I understand the difference between Payton/ Malone and KG taking a salary cut. I'm trying to focus on the principle. Take less money if it can help the team win and if you really want the team to win as much as you say you do, then the team, the GM, the owner has to agree. The agent will too because that gives them a better bargaining chip nex time around.

If the athlete doesn't care about winning and just wants to make money then more power to him. He can say he wants to make the money and he will have earned most of it. Take the money, just don't insult the fans intelligence and say its not important and you only do it for the love of the sport.

[Edited by - Silverfuel on 12/08/2003 23:14:28]
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What can Keith Van Horn do to get some respect?

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