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Where's the Progress?
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islesfan
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3/26/2009  12:55 AM
Let's pretend that you didn't know Isiah was replaced with Walsh and D'Antoni. Watching how the team is playing to finish this season, would you have any reason to believe that anything had changed and Isiah wasn't still running things?

No defense - Check

Selfish one on one play - Check

Can't finish games - Check

Off the court issues - Check

Embarrassing and unprofessional behavior - Check

This was a total waste of a year. Where is the progress that we can build on for next year? When you think about it, Walsh has only been able to clean up the most obvious problems but hasn't done much to move the team forward. Great job getting rid of salary cap killers but he missed badly on his lottery pick, didn't add any other picks at last years draft or at the trading deadline, has backed the team into a corner on Nate and Lee and are unnecessarliy risking losing them for nothing. Walsh has a lot to prove during this vitally important offseason. As for D'Antoni, he better discover that Defense is a huge part of the game or the Knicks need to find a new coach. Some accountability would be nice too.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
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TMS
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3/26/2009  1:55 AM
getting rid of Zach & Jamal's contracts were huge, but i agree, he's still got alot to prove this offseason... how he handles the Lee & Nate contract situations & this upcoming draft will be key in how we judge Walsh's performance as a GM.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
franco12
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3/26/2009  7:22 AM
my biggest issue with Walsh is he has this 2010 plan, but he is also doing what he can to stay competitive now.

He'd have been better off biting the bullet, and going into full strip down tank mode.

I've said this before- with Crawford, I've got to believe we could have gotten another team to send us filler and a first rounder for him. Instead, he went with making a deal to stay competitive.

But isles- I wouldn't go nearly as far as you have.

What embarrassing and unprofessional behavior & off the court issues have there been?

There has been improvement this year. There is a system- which you may not like, but nonetheless there is a system. And the biggest improvement is that the players largely have performed well in it- I didn't think our squad had the offensive ability to execute.


The question you need to answer seriously is could any other coach have achieved better results with the same players and circumstances? The answer at best is maybe.
babyKnicks
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3/26/2009  7:35 AM
Well. There the entire curry off the court misery and the tons if technicals by Nate and al. I can't recall many on the court last year but I'm a bit at a loss as well fir this season.

I can't see paying Nate or lee more than the mid level.
Let's go Knicks. That's amare
fishmike
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3/26/2009  7:48 AM
gone Marbury - check
gone Zach - check
gone Crawford - check
gone Isiah - check

looks like a lot of progress to me
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
chislic
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3/26/2009  8:17 AM
there has been progress... i agree, but it's too bad not a lot of that progress has not translated onto the court. Lack of consistency is what really kills me.
Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  8:18 AM
MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
franco12
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3/26/2009  8:22 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?
Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  8:38 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

I don't think either one of those guys you mentioned actually need multiple superstars to compete. That's why I said he is no Pat Riley. I think if Riley had the likes of Nash, Amare and Marion all at the same time in their prime, he would have multiple championships. The same with Jackson. With that same talent, D'Antoni gets the Suns to the Western Conference finals where they can't get over the hump and then regress. I don't think it would be malicious to say that Riley and Jackson are better coaches. I think D'Antoni needs better assistants around him. To be fair it is not his fault that he was forced to take Herb Williams with his deal.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
franco12
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3/26/2009  8:48 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

I don't think either one of those guys you mentioned actually need multiple superstars to compete. That's why I said he is no Pat Riley. I think if Riley had the likes of Nash, Amare and Marion all at the same time in their prime, he would have multiple championships. The same with Jackson. With that same talent, D'Antoni gets the Suns to the Western Conference finals where they can't get over the hump and then regress. I don't think it would be malicious to say that Riley and Jackson are better coaches. I think D'Antoni needs better assistants around him. To be fair it is not his fault that he was forced to take Herb Williams with his deal.

No Way! Riley got only so far when he had just Ewing- he won rings with what? Wade & Shaq, Magic, Worthy, Jabbar. C'mon. Amare, Marion & Nash? He would have maybe gotten a bit further- at most.

And what has Jackson won when he's just had Kobe? NOTHING!
Paladin55
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3/26/2009  9:09 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

I don't think either one of those guys you mentioned actually need multiple superstars to compete. That's why I said he is no Pat Riley. I think if Riley had the likes of Nash, Amare and Marion all at the same time in their prime, he would have multiple championships. The same with Jackson. With that same talent, D'Antoni gets the Suns to the Western Conference finals where they can't get over the hump and then regress. I don't think it would be malicious to say that Riley and Jackson are better coaches. I think D'Antoni needs better assistants around him. To be fair it is not his fault that he was forced to take Herb Williams with his deal.

I think that Jackson and Riley are both better coaches, but we all know the kind of players they had when they won their titles. For most of their coaching careers they had at least one superstar on their team, and neither of them has won a title without having two of them (I put Pippen in the superstar category, by the way.)

I don't think Riley would have won with MDA's Phoenix teams- I think he would have traded Amare for a real center and then competed for a title, though.

Substitute Ewing for Amare in Phoenix and I bet that MDA's Phoenix teams would have gotten into the finals once or twice and they might have won a title too. Put Ewing on this Knicks team and we might even make it to 50 wins.

Coaches can improve a team, but ultimately, you have to have the right players if you want to win a title.
No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities- C.N. Bovee
arkrud
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3/26/2009  9:40 AM
Posted by islesfan:

Let's pretend that you didn't know Isiah was replaced with Walsh and D'Antoni. Watching how the team is playing to finish this season, would you have any reason to believe that anything had changed and Isiah wasn't still running things?

No defense - Check

Selfish one on one play - Check

Can't finish games - Check

Off the court issues - Check

Embarrassing and unprofessional behavior - Check

This was a total waste of a year. Where is the progress that we can build on for next year? When you think about it, Walsh has only been able to clean up the most obvious problems but hasn't done much to move the team forward. Great job getting rid of salary cap killers but he missed badly on his lottery pick, didn't add any other picks at last years draft or at the trading deadline, has backed the team into a corner on Nate and Lee and are unnecessarliy risking losing them for nothing. Walsh has a lot to prove during this vitally important offseason. As for D'Antoni, he better discover that Defense is a huge part of the game or the Knicks need to find a new coach. Some accountability would be nice too.

No defense - Check (How defense can became better without defenders?)

Selfish one on one play - Check (How this can be better without team players?)

Can't finish games - Check (How this can change with young players and booms on the court?)

Off the court issues - Check (Do you mean Eddy and Steph? Are those issues? They are gone anyway.)

Embarrassing and unprofessional behavior - Check (Do you mean Al and Nate? Is it really so bad considering how stupid they are? It’s just natural.)

Walsh and Mike are still working on undercover demolition.
It is almost over and they have another year to complete this step.
Then they will need to build the foundation and only after this team.

If you are looking for captured spirit to build the castle from the air - go look for magic lamp.


[Edited by - arkrud on 03-26-2009 09:41 AM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knickss208
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3/26/2009  9:51 AM
Come on guys. There has been a great deal of improvement here. He moved what we thought were immovable contracts. And who the hell is going to give a player and a first rounder for Crawford. I mean come on, what kind of stupid statement is that?????

We are very fortunate to clear up the players we didnt want. There have been so many trades this off season its difficult to find the gel. With Duhon injured and on the decline you can see the team is folding with him. These things take time and I am very pleased with what Walsh has done. Next year we will have a lot of flexibility and will be even more active.

This team was a complete disaster and it looked like we had no hope of fixing it anytime soon. Walsh cleaned it up and is preparing to make the move. Lets not forget how bad the Celtics were before they became the team they are now.

PATIENCE
NYKBocker
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3/26/2009  9:53 AM
Posted by fishmike:

gone Marbury - check
gone Zach - check
gone Crawford - check
gone Isiah - check

looks like a lot of progress to me

Thank you. I can't believe that people are complaining about this year when significant progress has been made. Our future is bright with the moves that the Godfather has done. We have a plan now and we are sticking to it. While it is disappointing that we are not making a playoff appearance, I am extremely happy that we have a man running the team that is not wavering with his proposed plan.
DrAlphaeus
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3/26/2009  10:08 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

Advantage to Larry Brown then? How would you judge the talent on the 2004 Pistons -- they had a number of all-stars in the Wallaces, Billups & Rip -- and how much of their success would you attribute to the coaching?
Baba Booey 2016 — "It's Silly Season"
JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  10:10 AM
Isles complaining about the team - check
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  10:13 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

I don't think either one of those guys you mentioned actually need multiple superstars to compete. That's why I said he is no Pat Riley. I think if Riley had the likes of Nash, Amare and Marion all at the same time in their prime, he would have multiple championships. The same with Jackson. With that same talent, D'Antoni gets the Suns to the Western Conference finals where they can't get over the hump and then regress. I don't think it would be malicious to say that Riley and Jackson are better coaches. I think D'Antoni needs better assistants around him. To be fair it is not his fault that he was forced to take Herb Williams with his deal.

No Way! Riley got only so far when he had just Ewing- he won rings with what? Wade & Shaq, Magic, Worthy, Jabbar. C'mon. Amare, Marion & Nash? He would have maybe gotten a bit further- at most.

And what has Jackson won when he's just had Kobe? NOTHING!

Riley had Ewing competing in what is probably described one of the best times in recent memory for the Eastern Conference. BTW, I am not just talking about championships. I am talking about what a coach can do with the roster he has in front of him. Be competitive, improvement and serious threat.

Just with Ewing, Riley was able to put up 50 wins and take his team within Game 7 of upsetting the NBA champions. Riley had no use for Mark Jackson but was able to coach him in system. Jackson with only Pipen but a Bulls team that he coached up to the Knicks to game 7 Semi-Eastern Conference and depending on who you ask actually won the series. All I saying that D'Antoni needs a lot of help and needs conditions to be perfect to have success. He isn't on that level until he learns how to adjust to his players.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Pharzeone
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3/26/2009  10:17 AM
Posted by DrAlphaeus:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Pharzeone:

MDA is not a stellar coach. I didn't think so before he arrived and this season only proves it for me. He isn't on the Pat Riley level of coaching. I don't even think he is on Brown's level and that guy didn't even try when he was here. I think D'Antoni needs everything perfect in order for him to succeed. This season reminds me of his first season in PHX after Marbury was traded. Amare was injured so he didn't really have a superstar besides Marion. But he had the same issue when he took over the Nuggets. I think this guy needs a lot of superstars just to compete. That's just my feeling. I think this guy really needs Steve Nash in here.


I think you can say the same thing about Phil Jackson & Pat Riley. What did either win without having a top 5 talent on their squad?

Advantage to Larry Brown then? How would you judge the talent on the 2004 Pistons -- they had a number of all-stars in the Wallaces, Billups & Rip -- and how much of their success would you attribute to the coaching?

I seen those guys describe as all-stars and then very good players. I agree Brown took the easy way out but his history has been he was able to compete with rosters not so stellar like with the Pacers. I'm not a Brown fan but I will admit that he is HOF coach. D'Antoni needs help that's all I'm saying. I don't think he is a complete coach right now.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
JohnWallace44
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3/26/2009  10:25 AM
Was anyone watching how good Zach was last night?

You try coaching through a season where Zach and Craw are taken off of your team a few games in, and then just as you're getting the team settled again, Larry Hughes is dropped on your squad like a turd in the middle of a dinner table.

We can't keep tearing apart coaches who have been successful up until their time with the Knicks. Hmmm maybe we're the problem?

I think we're damn lucky to have Mike.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
djsunyc
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3/26/2009  10:25 AM
Posted by fishmike:

gone Marbury - check
gone Zach - check
gone Crawford - check
gone Isiah - check

looks like a lot of progress to me

i think isles is talking about d'antoni progress. walsh made progress, that's for sure. marbury was expiring, so that's moot. there were rumors of zach to clippers before d'antoni coached 1 game. crawford was sent to a team desperate to dump harrington. all these things were walsh. but what exactly has d'antoni done? i think that's what isles is getting at.
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