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Knicks have really backed themselves into a corner
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King1
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3/25/2009  2:06 PM
with the upcoming contracts of Lee and Nate. Walsh has his hands tied this summer and it will be interesting what they do. I can see a team like Sacramento or someone that needs to energize the fanbase into giving him a full MLE. I can see a team like Portland or OKC giving Lee a 5 yr 50 million dollar offer. Does Walsh match them? Does he let both of these guys walk for nothing? Can anyone name me a center right now that plays defense, block shots, get 15 points and 10 rebounds a game you can get to replace Lee and be effective in this system? This draft doesnt have a big man that can do those things and score. I think the Knicks made a huge mistake not signing Lee before the year. What will Walsh do and I dont think you will get a sign and trade like all stars Lewis and Joe Johnson got.
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djsunyc
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3/25/2009  2:10 PM
the only thing i can see walsh doing is possibly pulling a favor and getting a trade exemption for lee (like he did for peja to new orleans). otherwise, he will have to sign him or lose him. and getting nothing in return would be borderline negligent.
GKFv2
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3/25/2009  2:10 PM
Whoever give Lee $10 million a year is the worst GM in the NBA, bar none.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
fishmike
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3/25/2009  2:14 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

the only thing i can see walsh doing is possibly pulling a favor and getting a trade exemption for lee (like he did for peja to new orleans). otherwise, he will have to sign him or lose him. and getting nothing in return would be borderline negligent.
I say let them all walk. Package them, the picks, whatever else with Curry and JJ. Just clean the whole thing out. Then in 2010 give Lebron and his buddy Wade max contracts, a stake in MSG and make Lebron the coach and Wade the GM. It would work.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
EnySpree
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3/25/2009  2:19 PM
Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.
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GKFv2
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3/25/2009  2:23 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.

This is what separates Troy Murphy from David Lee - 3 point shooting.

Other than that, they are the same player and not because they're both white either. It's really coincidental.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
King1
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3/25/2009  2:31 PM
So if you let Lee walk then who will you have inside next year? I guess you can play Harrington at the five or you can draft a big in a horrible draft class and let him get his brains beat in every night and play Chandler at the four? They should have traded Lee before the year but now I think you are forced to sign him. He is the only guy on the team that can shoot straight and if you are going on defense no one on this teams plays any defense look what every perimeter player does to us. Letting one of your top scorers and rebounders walk for nothing would not be a good decision by the Knicks.
fishmike
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3/25/2009  2:31 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:

Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.

This is what separates Troy Murphy from David Lee - 3 point shooting.

Other than that, they are the same player and not because they're both white either. It's really coincidental.
they have nothing in common. Lee handles the ball well and is a very good passer. He's very around the basket scoring the ball. There is a reason he shoots 57% and Murphy shoots 45%.

As for the $10mm a year or 5 years and $50mm thats the going rate. If you dont want to pay it fine, but without Lee's production you take a major set back every area. Enyspree is right about his defense, and MDA yanked him from the game screaming at him for it just the other night (I think Turko beat him off the dribble for a dunk).

That being said 17/12/57% doesnt grow on trees and if you dont think that kind of production has value your coo coo for coco puffs

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
GKFv2
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3/25/2009  2:49 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:

Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.

This is what separates Troy Murphy from David Lee - 3 point shooting.

Other than that, they are the same player and not because they're both white either. It's really coincidental.
they have nothing in common. Lee handles the ball well and is a very good passer. He's very around the basket scoring the ball. There is a reason he shoots 57% and Murphy shoots 45%.

As for the $10mm a year or 5 years and $50mm thats the going rate. If you dont want to pay it fine, but without Lee's production you take a major set back every area. Enyspree is right about his defense, and MDA yanked him from the game screaming at him for it just the other night (I think Turko beat him off the dribble for a dunk).

That being said 17/12/57% doesnt grow on trees and if you dont think that kind of production has value your coo coo for coco puffs

Murphy shoots a lower percentage because he takes 3's, that's all. He's not playing the pick and roll like Lee on every possession.

Going rate for what? He's overrated. He is not a dominant offensive player to play 0 defense. He is more focused on stuffing the box score then getting the victory ala Zach Randolph. This dude has the wrong mentality on a lot of things and it's unfortunate because I'm sure he once had the right one but he developed as a player in the garbage Isiah seasons and only knows losing. I remember a quote from him saying the 3 game "Dream Wee" at the Garden where the Knicks were blown out of all 3 games was the "best 3 game losing streak I've ever had" or some stupid ass quote of that nature. That's up there with Al Harrington's "feel-good loss" line. The guy seems smug and arrogant when he talks to reporters and never blames his own defense when called out on it. I don't like him as a player and feel his stats are part of the system and increased minutes. $6 million a year and no more. If he wants more he can go be someone elses future garbage contract. Because that is what Lee will be when he gets $10 million - a garbage contract. Give me Amare, Bosh, whoever over this guy any day. Not to play NEXT to this guy but to replace him. Those guys don't play much defense either but they sometimes attempt to block some shots and they are way more of an offensive force than Mr. Softy David Lee.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
JohnWallace44
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3/25/2009  2:57 PM
Posted by King1:

So if you let Lee walk then who will you have inside next year? I guess you can play Harrington at the five or you can draft a big in a horrible draft class and let him get his brains beat in every night and play Chandler at the four? They should have traded Lee before the year but now I think you are forced to sign him. He is the only guy on the team that can shoot straight and if you are going on defense no one on this teams plays any defense look what every perimeter player does to us. Letting one of your top scorers and rebounders walk for nothing would not be a good decision by the Knicks.

Its not a horrible draft class.

What are we doing with Lee and Nate now? How is that going to change going forward?

We knew going into the season that we would be inflating player salaries based on this offense. Not signing Lee and Nate to extensions prior to the season was, well, dumb. Now we need to see if we can trade them for a minimum return. If we can't get that return we need to let them walk.

Bottom line.
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EwingsGlass
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3/25/2009  3:01 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:

Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.

This is what separates Troy Murphy from David Lee - 3 point shooting.

Other than that, they are the same player and not because they're both white either. It's really coincidental.
they have nothing in common. Lee handles the ball well and is a very good passer. He's very around the basket scoring the ball. There is a reason he shoots 57% and Murphy shoots 45%.

As for the $10mm a year or 5 years and $50mm thats the going rate. If you dont want to pay it fine, but without Lee's production you take a major set back every area. Enyspree is right about his defense, and MDA yanked him from the game screaming at him for it just the other night (I think Turko beat him off the dribble for a dunk).

That being said 17/12/57% doesnt grow on trees and if you dont think that kind of production has value your coo coo for coco puffs


Dude... you are totally being bamboozled by the D'antoni stat boost kool-aid. Let other GMs fall for that. Not taking shots at Lee... I really think he is a good player, but he has weaknesses and point to a comparative stat analysis is not the end-all in determining whether the players are of comparable worth. I'd like to see the advanced anaytics on Lee before dropping him big dollars. I hope Walsh is doing that.
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King1
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3/25/2009  3:01 PM
This draft is terrible and doesnt have one single player that can turn around a franchise. Lee is a 15/10 man on any team so why wouldnt you have traded him before the year started and got something for him instead of giving him away at the end of the year? Give me Amare or Bosh any day sure I would take both of them wish will cost you 6 yrs 102 million and neither one of them have won and Amare and MDA wont be together any time soon.
fishmike
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3/25/2009  3:03 PM
going rate for what he produces.

He's nothing like Amare. Who (when healthy) is a dominant frontcourt player.

Interesting you detest soft players then say "give me Bosh."

You dont like him.. I get it. Interesting you would be OK with losing him for nothing over a $4mm gap in pay.

I use the Boozer arguement.

If we were winning you would be harping on about how effecient Lee is, how good a passer he his, what a plus to have a guy give you 16 points a night on over 55% FGs, etc etc

But the Knicks stink so Lee stinks and so does his defense.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Pharzeone
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3/25/2009  3:07 PM
Posted by EwingsGlass:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:

Knicks need toughness...David Lee is our "best" big man and he gets boards and at times can make some spectacular plays...but the Knicks either need to get this man help or trade him. He has no pride out there on defense or inside in general. Thats soooo retarded to say about a guy that is averaging what he does but David Lee has got to be one of the softest double double guy in league history.

This is what separates Troy Murphy from David Lee - 3 point shooting.

Other than that, they are the same player and not because they're both white either. It's really coincidental.
they have nothing in common. Lee handles the ball well and is a very good passer. He's very around the basket scoring the ball. There is a reason he shoots 57% and Murphy shoots 45%.

As for the $10mm a year or 5 years and $50mm thats the going rate. If you dont want to pay it fine, but without Lee's production you take a major set back every area. Enyspree is right about his defense, and MDA yanked him from the game screaming at him for it just the other night (I think Turko beat him off the dribble for a dunk).

That being said 17/12/57% doesnt grow on trees and if you dont think that kind of production has value your coo coo for coco puffs


Dude... you are totally being bamboozled by the D'antoni stat boost kool-aid. Let other GMs fall for that. Not taking shots at Lee... I really think he is a good player, but he has weaknesses and point to a comparative stat analysis is not the end-all in determining whether the players are of comparable worth. I'd like to see the advanced anaytics on Lee before dropping him big dollars. I hope Walsh is doing that.

I do think that is a problem that Lee will run into in the offseason. I am a little surprise at how many executives as well commentators believe he is a product of D'Antoni's system. Kenny Smith all but called him a system guy. His rebounds aren't respected that much either because he rather ready himself for the rebound than play defense.

[Edited by - pharzeone on 03-25-2009 3:09 PM]
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Allanfan20
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3/25/2009  3:09 PM
Bottom line is this, and I've said it before.

If you want to build a team with Lee as your starting PF, you better get a center who is kind of like Marcus Camby. Someone who is THAT GOOD on the defensive end. At least you got some offensive skills out of that. Not a go to player but you have some skills. You'd need a big time wing player.
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fishmike
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3/25/2009  3:09 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by King1:

So if you let Lee walk then who will you have inside next year? I guess you can play Harrington at the five or you can draft a big in a horrible draft class and let him get his brains beat in every night and play Chandler at the four? They should have traded Lee before the year but now I think you are forced to sign him. He is the only guy on the team that can shoot straight and if you are going on defense no one on this teams plays any defense look what every perimeter player does to us. Letting one of your top scorers and rebounders walk for nothing would not be a good decision by the Knicks.

Its not a horrible draft class.

What are we doing with Lee and Nate now? How is that going to change going forward?

We knew going into the season that we would be inflating player salaries based on this offense. Not signing Lee and Nate to extensions prior to the season was, well, dumb. Now we need to see if we can trade them for a minimum return. If we can't get that return we need to let them walk.

Bottom line.
if what you say is true not trading them at the deadline was dumb. I posted at one point we should look to move Lee and Duhon around January. It would be unpopular but we would be selling high... very high. Duhon's 12/8 were not going to get any better. Plus we could have looked at Nate for 30 games as the starting PG and decided what we have there.

I am getting pretty apathetic to all of it, but I think letting Lee for go for nothing is a bigger setback than giving him 5 years and $50mm which is a pretty reasonable contract around the league.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jimimou
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3/25/2009  3:10 PM
Posted by King1:

This draft is terrible and doesnt have one single player that can turn around a franchise. Lee is a 15/10 man on any team so why wouldnt you have traded him before the year started and got something for him instead of giving him away at the end of the year? Give me Amare or Bosh any day sure I would take both of them wish will cost you 6 yrs 102 million and neither one of them have won and Amare and MDA wont be together any time soon.

i would disagree w that. we only know him as a 15 and 10 guy for THIS team.....a team w no identity, heart, defense, etc - i mean how can you base your argument that he can get those stats on ANY team when he is shining on a team that mails it in every other night? not an accurate statement in my mind. i personally would like to see d lee play somewhere where he would be competing w real players who play hard each and every night for boards and see what he's worth then b/c right now your statement is just wishful thining.

and, we should not be looking at the draft for a franchise turnaround player - i thought thats what lebron, wade talks are all about....bringing them in to change the franchise?
buddapaw
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3/25/2009  3:11 PM
Posted by King1:

So if you let Lee walk then who will you have inside next year? I guess you can play Harrington at the five or you can draft a big in a horrible draft class and let him get his brains beat in every night and play Chandler at the four? They should have traded Lee before the year but now I think you are forced to sign him. He is the only guy on the team that can shoot straight and if you are going on defense no one on this teams plays any defense look what every perimeter player does to us. Letting one of your top scorers and rebounders walk for nothing would not be a good decision by the Knicks.

You're kidding with this statement right?? Lee gets his boards nightly but he is a pinwheel on D, and have no idea what help defense is. To me Lee's stats are right there with Z-No's 20 - 10, but without the crap. Nice guy and all I like to the dude but he has to be one of the worst defenders from the F/C spot I've seen.
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King1
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3/25/2009  3:26 PM
Then tell me why and I put it up on a post we have had over 50 guys this year get twenty front he perimeter. Washington got 3 players in one game with twenty and total no names light us up. I agree that Lee defense is bad but for you to say Wilson, Nate, and Duhon are as bad then we arent watching the same game. The funny thing before the season started everyone including the papers said lee cant play in this system and now he is a system guy. The knicks wont lose Lee and they will draft a center hopefully and get Wade in 2010.
fishmike
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3/25/2009  3:38 PM
Posted by King1:
The funny thing before the season started everyone including the papers said lee cant play in this system and now he is a system guy.
thats a good and fair point.

I think Lee is overrated by some and underrated by others. Treat him for what he is. A good young and versatile player. Very effecient and great on the boards. Lousy on D but otherwise productive. He doesnt take any bad shots and still gives you 16-17 a game.



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