Papabear Says
It seems that for the past ten years almost every deal that we've made has blown up in our face. Here we have a 21 million dollar a year player and I won't mention his name and we could'nt in the begining of the season put together a plan to trade him by this time and get something back? We continue to make mistake after mistake in trying to get a world class player and it blows up in our face. Now we are ready to throw Nate and Lee under the bus. We only have 2 superstars in the game today. Kobe and King James. Neither one is coming to New York. So how do we stop making bone headed calls.A 21 million dollar player and he has the last laugh and maybe a ring to rub in our face.

Papabear is a genius. Who knew Stephon Marbury, with his terrible attitude, history and contract had so much value. We should have definitely offered him up for Bosh. Or maybe we should have just taken the lateral deal and brought on Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas for no reason.

buying him out was the right thing to do... the only thing we coulda got back in return for Marbs in a trade is garbage that woulda been counter productive to our 2010 plan... Walsh is not an idiot, if there was a viable deal out there to be had he woulda made it... there obviously weren't any good offers coming in as he mentioned in his post deadline trade comments.

It was a mistake to bench Marbs in the first place. It was also a mistake to let Zeke go. This was the year when Zeke, Marbs & Eddy were gonna make the Knicks champions again.

Walsh and D'Antoni inherited a great situation and made it worse. The core of our team - our all-star guard and center - wasted. I'd say bring back Zeke, but now, with Marbs gone and Eddy's confidence lower than it was even during the reign of the traitorous Larry Brown, I fear that even Zeke could not rescue this season.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 02-27-2009 18:27]

If you think logically, once it was decided we wouldn't play him (or he wouldn't play) it bacame an issue of purely money. So from that perspective it was a reasonable move to try and save the 4 Million greenbacks. But this is not about money for us fans its about revenge, and I am squarely with BlueSeats we should have let him rot.

[Edited by - loweyecue on 02-27-2009 7:00 PM]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Uhoh. Papabear is getting angry and we know what happens when Papabear gets angry ....

Look out Goldilocks!

Posted by BasketballJones:

It was a mistake to bench Marbs in the first place. It was also a mistake to let Zeke go. This was the year when Zeke, Marbs & Eddy were gonna make the Knicks champions again.

Walsh and D'Antoni inherited a great situation and made it worse. The core of our team - our all-star guard and center - wasted. I'd say bring back Zeke, but now, with Marbs gone and Eddy's confidence lower than it was even during the reign of the traitorous Larry Brown, I fear that even Zeke could not rescue this season.

[Edited by - basketballjones on 02-27-2009 18:27]

This team needs strong leadership and Zeke is as potent as they come. Let him watch from the tunnel and cast disparaging looks at D'Antoni. Let him bust into the lockerroom at halftime to let everyone know he's got no confidence in the coach and players will be answering to either himself or Steph. Then he can fire all of D's assistants and hire his own.

Each film session should begin with a review of Chaney being led from the Garden by security, and Shandon Anderson, the reigning NBA IronMan, having his consecutive game streak ended in his hometown after buying 50 tickets.

That's the kind of purposeful leadership we need, and that's why we're holding onto The Captain.

He ain't sleeping, he's just resting.

Papa I think there is alot to this issue that you left out. No one is talking about how Isiah threw Marbury under the bus like he did his daughter last year. Marbury deserves the label he has earned but Isiah increased the wrath of some fans with his skin saving divorce. That being said, Steph's contract was a huge mistake and moving it without hurting the franchise's future was almost impossible and obviously no one offered anything worth giving up the cap space. There was no deal to be won here. MD couldn't have Steph in his locker if he was going to change the mentality and spirit of the team. The mistake that was made was bringing Steph to camp. The Berman bs this year was just that. The Knicks are better without Steph as every other team that had him is. The big difference is that the total benefit from his loss will not be felt until 2010 when the Knicks finally have salary cap space. I think Walsh took the high road and displayed the character that the organization did not have with Isiah, Marbury and his cousin when he agreed to the buyout.

@Papabear You are right. If the "Pump and Dump" strategy could work with Randolph and Crawford, it could have worked with Marbury. He would have flourished in the system like every other scoring-oriented player, helped with a few more wins (at least) and we probably could have gotten something decent for him because an expiring contract is a valued commodity.

Just as I predicted earlier in the season there were a couple of teams that could really have used a PG because of injury, most notably Orlando. Marbury would have been a prime target for a trade if his value was not destroyed. In case anyone did not notice Orlando traded for an established head-case, Rafer Alston, who is about half as good as Marbury about 1.5 weeks ago.

Marbury had every reason to keep his mouth shut and play ball this season -- his own personal gain being the prime one, the Knicks should have taken advantage of it. Instead, the team is now breaking down and the good stuff we have been witnessing has been mostly smoke and mirrors anyway.

@Crushalot -- In regard to needing to exclude Marbury from the team in order to change the mentality and spirit of the locker room -- The team looks pretty much the same to me as in previous years, it's just that we are riding certain guys more, they score more, and I did not think it was possible, but they play even less defense. They have the same bad habits.

On top of that, how many guys on this team are going to be here in 2 years? I submit that the spirit and mentality -- taking what you say about rehabilitating the locker room as a given that I won't argue -- Is immaterial to a team headed in the direction the Knicks are this year. They were never playing for this year.

Furthermore, Larry Hughes is a known bad locker room guy, Harrington has a rep, and Tim Thomas does too, and they are all here, so there has to be more to it. I have evaluated what happened with Marbury, and I just don't believe that Walsh or D'Antoni are stupid enough to crap on an asset the way they did. I have to believe this came from Dolan.

@Blueseats -- What's up buddy? I gotta tell you, I still catch most games, my 2 favorite guys on the team are flourishing (Robinson and Lee), and I still find myself bored, even when they win. I must say that I don't find D'Antoni's style riveting. It reminds me of Rick Pitino, except without the defensive philosophy of pressing all game. I don't see how we can build a team that is a real winner, meaning a team that can win in the playoffs, without some semblance of a defense. I guess maybe you can do it with LeBron + Wade or something, but I don't see LeBron coming here when Cleveland already has 2 guards team better than any of ours, a Big man who is better than any of ours, I believe they have draft picks, and they have good shooters to boot. We should be more worried about cleveland stealing Robinson or Lee than they need to be worried about us stealing LeBron.
(I address the above paragraph to you mainly to say hello, not to rub anything in.)

@Everybody else -- I think we fukced up with Galinari. He can shoot and he might be a decent player, but how much better would we be with Lopez? Lee could play his natural position and we would have a good big man who would be threatening to be an all-star in the next year or 2. Another one is Gordon. Can you imagine the damage he could do in this system? Bayless could be a monster in this system as well. DJ Augustin probably would have relaced Duhon as the starter by now.

Galinari might have been picked specifically to fit in this system, but those 4 guys fit into the system just as well and I think Lopez and Gordon will almost certainly have better careers. Augustin too. Bayless it is hard to say.

***

Sigh, the more things change the more they stay the same!

oohah

Posted by BlueSeats:

Good to see you around, oohah.

Let me ask you a question. If we had made no trades but someone like Fratello or Van Gundy was our coach, would you really be feeling so much better about our future?

Not really. I can't stand Van Gundy and I think his rep as a "defensive coach" is wholly undeserved. On top of that Van Gundy is the worst offensive coach in the history of something or other.

Fratello is a decent rent-a-coach. I guess I would feel a little better about him because I know he would be gone pretty soon.

I like Rick Adelman a lot. He has balance to his coaching method.

If you are going for a straight offensive guy I like Don Nelson. He tailors his system to his players.

I won't lie though, on top of the offense only coaching style, something about D'Antoni's demeanor just bugs me.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 28-02-2009 12:21 PM]

Oohah, you're a bit like Phar, there are very few coaches you guys can tolerate. Unfortunately, not every coach is available at the same time and you (management) have to pick one and empower him. It's just reality.

I just ask the question about guys like JVG or Fratty to the guys who hate D' because we play "no D". This bunch wouldn't be better defensively, or record-wise, with another coach anyway.

As for D's demeanor, I think you just can't trust a man with an effusive smile and easy laugh. Perhaps you think a man can't attain such a powerful position without being conniving and manipulative, so you assume his bumpkin charm must is manufactured.

I don't know, I'm just fishing.

Anyway, I too am concerned about our ability to obtain elite caliber talent, but I that despiard didn't arrive with Donnie and D', we were screwed before they got here. But I think there is an essential element that's being overlooked. People think we should have rehabilitated the image of guys like Zach and Marbury so as to get value from them in trades, but it's very difficult to rehab the image of max contract players with years of baggage under their belt. A few months of good play from those guys was not going to significantly elevate their value. Teams just aren't eager to take on that level of risk in this economic climate.

Instead we will be rehabilitating the image of more value oriented players like Hughes, Duhon, Wilcox, Jeffries, Harrington and possibly Curry. ANd with the exception of JJ and Curry, who were already here, the other guys are two year rentals, so the risk of failing is minimal.

So the process you want is in place, just with lower cost/risk players, and in the process they allowed more PT for the development of our youth, and cleared the air of discontent in the locker room.

This isn't to say "mission accomplished" and everything is gravy in Knicksland. But there is a method to the madness and considering the state of the organization they inherited, and the FA possibilities at stake, I think it's a very sensible approach.