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Hear Me Now and Believe Me Later (after dinner), The NYKnicks Don't Need Lebron To Become A Consistent Winner
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misterearl
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2/26/2009  8:48 PM
It would be a HUGE mistake to sacrifice the inevitable maturity and steady improvement demonstrated by Lee, Chandler, Nate (who IS great) and Danilo Gallinari.

Forget kvetching about maxing out the max salary slots. By 2011, Donnie Walsh could also pick up two players not named Bosh or James and still make a run towards the ECF.

Why? If The Knicks can play what amounts to 4 on 5 on offense with Jared Jeffries, imagine how the insertion of a center averaging 12 points and 16 rebounds could change the equation. Of course, Wise would have the largest welcome press conference this side of A-Rod, but he comes bundled with the unrealistic expectation of a messiah delivering championship rings in year one. Once the NY press turns sour on any perceived flaw, the bloodthirsty crowd follows suit and the pressure only intensifies. Who needs that?

The Knicks frontcourt has 4 excellent components: the fiery 6'10 Gallinari, the icy cool 6'8 Chandler, Mr Double-Double 6'9 Lee and the active 6'9 Wilcox (still learning at 26 years old). Nice depth and versatility here. Why mess with it?

The frontcourt could be improved over Duhon, Nate and Agent Zero but that is not a concern. Walsh can find another guard in Summer League or The Mayor can cameo at the two.

The center position is fundamentally unmanned. Lee is a sieve on defense and Jeffries is a poor decoy on offense. But that deficiency is nothing that two 6'11 types can't fix.

The free agent chedda could, and SHOULD, be invested in a young man who can man-up in the middle. Not Lebron.






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TMS
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2/26/2009  8:57 PM
u mind telling me who u plan on signing in 2011 that's going to make more of an impact on this roster than someone like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Bosh or Amare in 2010?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
JohnWallace44
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2/27/2009  1:42 AM
CP3
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
EnySpree
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2/27/2009  2:37 AM
I been trying to get you guys to talk about what we have for a while.....

Throw Al Harrington in this too....he's never been the flat out go to guy and he wants to be it. He's fitting the Knicks situation right. He's learning he has to compose himself to avoid the refs and such.

As you mentioned Gallo, Chandler, Lee and Nate are all playing well.....when do the Knicks stop and say....ok well lets try to build on this current group.....lebron would be nice but who else is there?

How good would this team be if they were to sign Camby to a mid-level deal? Tyson Chandler was almost gieven away for caca poo poo....knicks will have q-rich expiring next season and some others. Maybe even Al Harrington gets traded for Chandler to make room for Wilson or Gallo to step up....

How good is a team like this:

Lee
Wilson
Tyson
Duhon(who I think should be traded)
Hughes

With Nate, Gallo and maybe a cheaply signed Wilcox

How good is that team?

15 teams wanna cut salary or need money cuz of the recession....maybe Baron is free? Maybe andre Miller? Maybe Nash gets traded? Maybe Sessions? Reunite the old washington duo of Hughes and Arenas? Vince Carter?

The Knicks have some options.....without even worrying about Lebron to save them...

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:40 AM]

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:44 AM]
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GKFv2
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2/27/2009  2:59 AM
Posted by EnySpree:

I been trying to get you guys to talk about what we have for a while.....

Throw Al Harrington in this too....he's never been the flat out go to guy and he wants to be it. He's fitting the Knicks situation right. He's learning he has to compose himself to avoid the refs and such.

As you mentioned Gallo, Chandler, Lee and Nate are all playing well.....when do the Knicks stop and say....ok well lets try to build on this current group.....lebron would be nice but who else is there?

How good would this team be if they were to sign Camby to a mid-level deal? Tyson Chandler was almost gieven away for caca poo poo....knicks will have q-rich expiring next season and some others. Maybe even Al Harrington gets traded for Chandler to make room for Wilson or Gallo to step up....

How good is a team like this:

Lee
Wilson
Tyson
Duhon(who I think should be traded)
Hughes

With Nate, Gallo and maybe a cheaply signed Wilcox

How good is that team?

15 teams wanna cut salary or need money cuz of the recession....maybe Baron is free? Maybe andre Miller? Maybe Nash gets traded? Maybe Sessions? Reunite the old washington duo of Hughes and Arenas? Vince Carter?

The Knicks have some options.....without even worrying about Lebron to save them...

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:40 AM]

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:44 AM]

I'll be honest with you bro, that team would never win more than 43-45 games in a season and would never get out of the first round.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
EnySpree
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2/27/2009  5:13 AM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:

I been trying to get you guys to talk about what we have for a while.....

Throw Al Harrington in this too....he's never been the flat out go to guy and he wants to be it. He's fitting the Knicks situation right. He's learning he has to compose himself to avoid the refs and such.

As you mentioned Gallo, Chandler, Lee and Nate are all playing well.....when do the Knicks stop and say....ok well lets try to build on this current group.....lebron would be nice but who else is there?

How good would this team be if they were to sign Camby to a mid-level deal? Tyson Chandler was almost gieven away for caca poo poo....knicks will have q-rich expiring next season and some others. Maybe even Al Harrington gets traded for Chandler to make room for Wilson or Gallo to step up....

How good is a team like this:

Lee
Wilson
Tyson
Duhon(who I think should be traded)
Hughes

With Nate, Gallo and maybe a cheaply signed Wilcox

How good is that team?

15 teams wanna cut salary or need money cuz of the recession....maybe Baron is free? Maybe andre Miller? Maybe Nash gets traded? Maybe Sessions? Reunite the old washington duo of Hughes and Arenas? Vince Carter?

The Knicks have some options.....without even worrying about Lebron to save them...

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:40 AM]

[Edited by - enyspree on 27-02-2009 02:44 AM]

I'll be honest with you bro, that team would never win more than 43-45 games in a season and would never get out of the first round.

Lebron isn't gonna make the Knicks a title contender either.

Still....of the dome:

Say Al Harrington for Vince....
Maybe Q-rich and whoever for tyson Chandler....I dunno dude something like this....all cap trades....

Lee
Wilson
Tyson
Kidd (sign for mid-level)
Vince

Nate, Duhon, Gallo, Wilcox?

How you like them apples?
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TMS
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2/27/2009  7:27 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

CP3

he's not a FA til 2012 at the earliest.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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2/27/2009  7:30 AM
u can't win championships w/a team full of role players, u need superstars... it's been proven year after year & yet some Knick fans simply do not get the message & wanna continue building w/mediocre to good talent that won't ever have a chance of lifting this team to where we all wanna go... i just don't get the reasoning other than being gluttons for eternal punishment in the purgatory hell of our own existence.

After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
misterearl
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2/27/2009  8:16 AM
The Answer Man Knows Donnie Walsh Knows One Man Does NOT Make A Team

TMS - u mind telling me who u plan on signing in 2011 that's going to make more of an impact on this roster than someone like Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Bosh or Amare in 2010?

A. It's not about "impact" but about gradually building a coherent roster. Sure, everyone knows Wise is the best but the direction being taken by Walsh cannot be predicted any more than one person knows where the economy is headed.

First, One reason the Knicks have gone in circles because they have not been patient enough to recruit and nourish young talent. You don't wait for Rod Strickland, you trade him to rent Mo Cheeks. They Knicks have young talent that will only get better with experience. You keep them.

Second, The Knicks are at the turning point in team building where they can address specific areas of need. That most critical need is at center.

Third, Dirk, Wade and Bosh are NOT superstarts. They are excellent players who play in the rare air of "consistent performer who can be depended on to contribute in a significant way every night".

IMPORTANT NOTE: NONE of them have rings. Dirk does not have a ring with a franchise with an enlightened owner BUILT to win a ring.

There are only 2 superstars. Kobe and Lebron. Neither one of them is coming to New York.

once a knick always a knick
TheGame
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2/27/2009  8:34 AM
If we get Thabeet in the draft, then I can see sticking with this group. I think Thabeet can be a Mutumbo type center. If DG and CHandler continue to improve, we should have enough offense to compete. I would still like to add Lebron and/or Bosh, but I agree that this team can get to a contender level if the current group continues to improve and we can find a competent center. Playing Lee and Jeffries at center is not going to cut it.
Trust the Process
SupremeCommander
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2/27/2009  8:39 AM
If the Knicks can grab a center like Andrew Bogut in a salary dump and draft a point like Brandon Jennings, Jeff Teague, Eric Maynor, or Stephen Curry (lots of good point prospects), they could be a very good team for a while... just not sure about championship aspirations and that's the allure to the 2010 plan.
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misterearl
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2/27/2009  9:03 AM
SupremeCommander - The Answer Man wants a championship as much as the next guy but the quantum leap from 40 wins to a ring ceremony is not just happening with one juicy free agent or lottery selection. Unless of course, you are the San Antonio Spurs and have an all star center stashed on the DL.

Let's jump in The Way Back Machine. The Spurs had a nice supporting cast and a center (David Robinson) stashed on the injured list. The moment Tim Duncan arrives, voila!

Ring ceremony.

Neither would be considered a superstar, but they were two core players who could be depended upon for consistent production and to defend the paint (something the Knicks sorely miss) at the same time.

The 1999 Spurs are the 2012 Knicks business model. Now go get me a center, or two.





once a knick always a knick
buddapaw
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2/27/2009  9:16 AM
Posted by TMS:

u can't win championships w/a team full of role players, u need superstars... it's been proven year after year & yet some Knick fans simply do not get the message & wanna continue building w/mediocre to good talent that won't ever have a chance of lifting this team to where we all wanna go... i just don't get the reasoning other than being gluttons for eternal punishment in the purgatory hell of our own existence.


Detroit did it
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Cosmic
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2/27/2009  9:33 AM
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by TMS:

u can't win championships w/a team full of role players, u need superstars... it's been proven year after year & yet some Knick fans simply do not get the message & wanna continue building w/mediocre to good talent that won't ever have a chance of lifting this team to where we all wanna go... i just don't get the reasoning other than being gluttons for eternal punishment in the purgatory hell of our own existence.


Detroit did it

Detroit was a team full of role players?

DPOY, one of the most talented PFs of the time, one of the best PGs in the league, one of the top SGs in the league, and one damn good young kid at SF. Four all-stars were starters for the Pistons.

Why people try to downplay how good those individual players on the Pistons really were?
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TheGame
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2/27/2009  9:40 AM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by buddapaw:
Posted by TMS:

u can't win championships w/a team full of role players, u need superstars... it's been proven year after year & yet some Knick fans simply do not get the message & wanna continue building w/mediocre to good talent that won't ever have a chance of lifting this team to where we all wanna go... i just don't get the reasoning other than being gluttons for eternal punishment in the purgatory hell of our own existence.


Detroit did it

Detroit was a team full of role players?

DPOY, one of the most talented PFs of the time, one of the best PGs in the league, one of the top SGs in the league, and one damn good young kid at SF. Four all-stars were starters for the Pistons.

Why people try to downplay how good those individual players on the Pistons really were?

I agree that Detriot had talent, but they had no superstars, which I assume is buddapaw's point. I think all this team needs a one superstar. You add Lebron to this team and we are instantly a contender. Barring that occurring, if we can get a competent center and Chandler and DG continue to improve, I can see this team winning 50+ games. We will win over 35 this year in MDA's first year with no competent center. If we can get Thabeet in the draft or trade for a center, we would be in decent shape.
Trust the Process
misterearl
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2/27/2009  10:09 AM
TheeGame - thank you

You might also add that all ANY team needs is one superstar. Put Kobe of Lebron with any roster and the equation changes dramatically. Anyone except the accursed Clippers of course.

The formula for winning is talent PLUS cohesiveness.

Walsh adds Lebron. Cool. Name the Knicks players who are forced to subvert their development, and have their growth stunted, standing around and watching?

How long does it require to re-adjust the roster around Lebron and then re-learn new roles and responsibilities that compliment his enormous impact?

Two years. Minimum.

My kingdom for a center.


once a knick always a knick
SupremeCommander
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2/27/2009  10:09 AM
Posted by misterearl:

SupremeCommander - The Answer Man wants a championship as much as the next guy but the quantum leap from 40 wins to a ring ceremony is not just happening with one juicy free agent or lottery selection. Unless of course, you are the San Antonio Spurs and have an all star center stashed on the DL.

Let's jump in The Way Back Machine. The Spurs had a nice supporting cast and a center (David Robinson) stashed on the injured list. The moment Tim Duncan arrives, voila!

Ring ceremony.

Neither would be considered a superstar, but they were two core players who could be depended upon for consistent production and to defend the paint (something the Knicks sorely miss) at the same time.

The 1999 Spurs are the 2012 Knicks business model. Now go get me a center, or two.




I feel you, but the point I'm trying to make is about this team's ceiling... there isn't much doubt in my mind this team will become a consistent playoff team. But there are still some major holes on the roster and I'm not sure that by filling these holes I'll be going to a championship parade. Knicks need a PG/C of the future, as well as a 6'6-8" sharpshooter (maybe Gallo/Chandler becomes that, but maybe not). That's a lot of MAJOR pieces to add to this puzzle
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misterearl
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2/27/2009  10:27 AM
Supreme - no doubt.

Here are the Answer Man's Five Stages of NBA franchise development. Taking less that one year each to complete one of these steps can be considered an achievement.

Stage One - Non Playoff team - "welcome to the NBA Draft Lottery...". In 2008, you were the Knicks.

Stage Two - Playoff team, but barely - here are some nice "first round exit" parting gifts. You are the Nets.

Stage Three - Playoff team that advances a round or two max - not bad, you still need another star, you catch lightning in a bottle and are the Denver Nuggets

Stage Four - Playoff team left at the altar - you make the conference finals on the regular, you are the Dallas Mavericks

Stage Five - Championship calibre - you have the proper ingredients, the cook to prepare the meal and they blend with tasty perfection. You only make a quantum leap from Stage One if your GM knows another GM who will hook him up. You are the Celtics.
once a knick always a knick
Uptown
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2/27/2009  10:36 AM
As TMS has already stated and as I have argued numerous times on this forum, you need a superstar to win the Chip. Lets look at the champions from the last 20 years:

1989 Lakers Magic, Kareem, Worthy
1990 Pistons Isiah
1991 Pistons Isiah
1992 Bulls Jordan, Pippen
1993 Bulls Jordan, Pippen
1994 Rockets Hakeem
1995 Rockets Hakeem, Drexler
1996 Bulls Jordan, Pippen
1997 Bulls Jordan, Pippen
1998 Bulls Jordan, Pippen
1999 Spurs Duncan, Robinson
2000 Lakers Shaq, Kobe
2001 Lakers Shaq, Kobe
2002 Lakers Shaq, Kobe
2003 Spurs Duncan
2004 Pistons
2005 Spurs Duncan
2006 Heat Shaq, Wade
2007 Spurs Duncan
2008 Cetics Garnett, Pierce, Allen

So other than the 04 Pistons, every single team that won a chip over the last 20 years has had at least one and in most cases two hall of fame players. And with the exception of Isiah, the best player on each of these championships has won at least one MVP trophy at some point in thier careers. If we have any aspirations of winning a chip you need a superstar/hall or famer/MVP callibre player like a Lebron, Wade, etc.....if you guys are happy with first round exits, then by all means go ahead and plug in a Tyson Chandler with this current team and ignore stars that will be available in 2010-2012. And we can all meet up right here on this forum and bitch and complain about how the current coach cant get us over the hump.

[Edited by - uptown on 02-27-2009 10:38 AM]
djsunyc
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2/27/2009  10:39 AM
i agree with earl. banking on somebody to ride in on their white horse to save the day is not a great plan for fans to get behind.
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