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If Donnie Walsh Has Been Clear About His Plan For 2010 - Why The Impatience For Immediate Trades?
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misterearl
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1/12/2009  12:31 AM
"(Donnie Walsh) said his team could be active in the trade market, buying or selling, as long as it does not disrupt the team’s plans for 2010. “If I can get a good player, I’d like to do that,” Walsh said. “But I don’t want to interfere with two years from now. That’s one thing I’ve been pretty consistent with. And I guess, to a degree, it would have to be somebody who could really help us. It isn’t just another guy."

The moment Jamal and Zach were dealt was a turning point for the Knicks franchise. The acceptance of Cuttino Mobley's problemmatic medical condition was a major concession, given the lack of experienced depth in the backcourt. Nate gets injured and Duhon, predictably, wears down. Jeffries gets injured and Lee, the only frontcourt big man (Tim Thomas does not count) gets exposed.

Neither Lebron, Dewyane or Chris Bosh is walking through the door at the Greenburgh practice facility for another 2 years, if at all, and the ride will be a roller coaster of dips and unexpected turns.

Walsh deserves three years of patience to complete his blueprint. This is the only beginning of year one. Kvetching over losses on a nightly basis, or wringing hands over David Lee is simply an exercise in defending superficial preferences. The Mayor may be wearing a Chicago Bulls uniform by 2010.


One thing is guaranteed - it won't be pretty.


Enjoy The Ride.



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islesfan
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1/12/2009  12:37 AM
Who's complaining about trades? Weren't there 2 fairly immediate trades that the majority of the board praised, including myself?
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TMS
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1/12/2009  12:42 AM
aren't we already talking about 2010 & impatience in 2 other threads?

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=29719

http://ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=29720

[Edited by - TMS on 01-11-2009 9:42 PM]
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Pharzeone
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1/12/2009  12:47 AM
TMS, you know that 2010 is being used as a scapegoat for what is going on. The question is why are scrubs being coached better than the Knicks current roster. So what no one should worry about coaching until the fall of 2010? Come on.
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TMS
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1/12/2009  12:53 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

TMS, you know that 2010 is being used as a scapegoat for what is going on. The question is why are scrubs being coached better than the Knicks current roster. So what no one should worry about coaching until the fall of 2010? Come on.

i do? says who? you? how do u know what's gonna happen in 2010? cuz i'd like to know myself... gimme the scoop Miss Cleo.

seriously tho, 2 threads on this topic is enough... enough w/the repetitive threads already.
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Pharzeone
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1/12/2009  1:01 AM
This is just the beginning. Expect more of this and not just on here. The Giants gone early, no Jets in the playoffs. I expect the Knicks trouble will be front and center for awhile in the media.
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Knicksfan
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1/12/2009  1:20 AM
Posted by Pharzeone:

This is just the beginning. Expect more of this and not just on here. The Giants gone early, no Jets in the playoffs. I expect the Knicks trouble will be front and center for awhile in the media.

No more high prized free agents the Yankees can sign? Please, anything other than 2010, Mike D'Antoni being the worst coach in the league, Walsh being a horrible GM, doomsday and all.


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misterearl
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1/12/2009  8:54 AM
The summer of 2010 can't come fast enough. "I haven't hung myself or jumped off a bridge yet," Walsh says, "so I'm ahead of the game."

"That's one thing I've been pretty consistent with," Walsh said. "And to a degree it would have to be somebody that can help us. It can't be just another guy."


"That hurt," Walsh said of Gallinari's season-long absence. "It hurts when Mobley has to retire. Those are decisions I made and I know that hurt. On the other hand, I think that by getting the cap space in two years, we got a chance to build a team that makes us a [championship] contender. I don't know without [cap space to sign free agents], if we would've been able to do that with trades, the draft, without it taking a long time."

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-12-2009 08:59 AM]
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TheGame
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1/12/2009  9:19 AM
Posted by misterearl:

The summer of 2010 can't come fast enough. "I haven't hung myself or jumped off a bridge yet," Walsh says, "so I'm ahead of the game."

"That's one thing I've been pretty consistent with," Walsh said. "And to a degree it would have to be somebody that can help us. It can't be just another guy."


"That hurt," Walsh said of Gallinari's season-long absence. "It hurts when Mobley has to retire. Those are decisions I made and I know that hurt. On the other hand, I think that by getting the cap space in two years, we got a chance to build a team that makes us a [championship] contender. I don't know without [cap space to sign free agents], if we would've been able to do that with trades, the draft, without it taking a long time."

[Edited by - misterearl on 01-12-2009 08:59 AM]

It also hurt that we gave away Balkman when we needed him this year. It also hurt that we gave the Clippers a starting PF and starting PG in Collins (who is avg. like 13 pts as a starter) for Tim Thomas, with no draft picks or prospects. It also hurt that we signed Roberson, who cannot play, while we allowed other guys go play for other teams. Even Fred Jones could have contributed this year. This regime is starting to make some questionable decisions. DG better be able to play.
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Cosmic
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1/12/2009  9:28 AM
All I got to say is LOL at the melt downs fans are having over us sucking this season. As if we were going to be good anyway. For the millionth time, for which the impatient refuse to believe, we started 5-2 against really BAD teams with BAD injuries to boot. Then the mighty ZachCrawKnicks went on a 1-3 skid (wow never seen THAT happen before) and they were traded at JUST the right time.

It's funny reading we should have kept them until the deadline to get more. More for what? Two garbage players? One who is on the shelf and one who is gleefully chucking his way to losses? What else did you think you were going to get?

It amazes me that there are still fans that either choose not to understand or actually don't understand that we are in the process of tearing down Isiah's mess. That will take an additional 18 months to achieve. Then once that is done, in the summer of 2010, we begin to build the team back up.

Then I see threads blasting the tear down because "nobody is coming here in 2010". Oh, really? How do you know that? Even if the top 4 FAs re-sign with their teams or elsewhere that doesn't change the fact that: a) We HAD to tear down Isiah's mess, b) There are other 2nd level free agents to be had, c) There's nothing wrong with throwing your hat into the 2010 FA market ring.

Mike D was a bad hire? Really? A guy with a good resume, a guy players want to play for, being established before the FA market of 2010 was a bad idea? Walsh and MikeD two highly respected basketball people brought in to clean up the mess Isiah Thomas left behind was a bad idea? How so? You mean we might be returned to being a respectable franchise? My god the horror please make it stop!

We're cleaning up Isiah's mess of a roster and mess of an image he turned this proud franchise into. It will take another year and a half to finish cleaning up Isiah's **** stains. It will then take a year or two to build a competitive team. This is what had to be done over 7 years ago and now it's finally being done for real.

So what's all the crying about? I just can't understand. Yearning for 23 and 33 win seasons guided by the chucking of idiotic players? Upset you can no longer start threads about which MLE free agent was going to push us over the top? No more figuring out how to recycle expiring contracts and our draft picks for other team's overpaid losers?

LOL at all the whining and crying about being a bad team. Seriously some people need to get a clue and fast.
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TheGame
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1/12/2009  9:37 AM
Posted by Cosmic:

All I got to say is LOL at the melt downs fans are having over us sucking this season. As if we were going to be good anyway. For the millionth time, for which the impatient refuse to believe, we started 5-2 against really BAD teams with BAD injuries to boot. Then the mighty ZachCrawKnicks went on a 1-3 skid (wow never seen THAT happen before) and they were traded at JUST the right time.

It's funny reading we should have kept them until the deadline to get more. More for what? Two garbage players? One who is on the shelf and one who is gleefully chucking his way to losses? What else did you think you were going to get?

It amazes me that there are still fans that either choose not to understand or actually don't understand that we are in the process of tearing down Isiah's mess. That will take an additional 18 months to achieve. Then once that is done, in the summer of 2010, we begin to build the team back up.

Then I see threads blasting the tear down because "nobody is coming here in 2010". Oh, really? How do you know that? Even if the top 4 FAs re-sign with their teams or elsewhere that doesn't change the fact that: a) We HAD to tear down Isiah's mess, b) There are other 2nd level free agents to be had, c) There's nothing wrong with throwing your hat into the 2010 FA market ring.

Mike D was a bad hire? Really? A guy with a good resume, a guy players want to play for, being established before the FA market of 2010 was a bad idea? Walsh and MikeD two highly respected basketball people brought in to clean up the mess Isiah Thomas left behind was a bad idea? How so? You mean we might be returned to being a respectable franchise? My god the horror please make it stop!

We're cleaning up Isiah's mess of a roster and mess of an image he turned this proud franchise into. It will take another year and a half to finish cleaning up Isiah's **** stains. It will then take a year or two to build a competitive team. This is what had to be done over 7 years ago and now it's finally being done for real.

So what's all the crying about? I just can't understand. Yearning for 23 and 33 win seasons guided by the chucking of idiotic players? Upset you can no longer start threads about which MLE free agent was going to push us over the top? No more figuring out how to recycle expiring contracts and our draft picks for other team's overpaid losers?

LOL at all the whining and crying about being a bad team. Seriously some people need to get a clue and fast.

If you are referring to my comments, I don't care about the losing. In fact, I want the team to lose because we really need to get a top-3 pick and bring some solid talent to the team. What I do care about is Walsh making deals that don't maximize our return. I still believe we could have gotten more from the Clippers for Randolph and Collins. While giving Balkman away for a second rounder is not the worst deal in the world, if all we were going to get is a second rounder, then why not keep Balkman until the trade deadline to see if you can package him with someone else to help a trade deal. We could have gotten a second round pick for Balkman at anytime. So I have no probably with rebuilding, but I do have a problem with not getting the most for our assets, especially since we had so few to begin with.
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misterearl
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1/12/2009  9:47 AM
Game - there will be mistakes.

Your Balkman retrospective is curious because one could also second-guess his role and skill-set as a significant contributor on a championship team. The assets you speak of must be viewed from the outside in and not with the affection of a Knicks fan. Of course, Balkman would be a nice addition to the roster but the decision that he could be traded had more to do with Chandler's outstanding Summer League than anything, playing at the same forward position.

There is no way to evaluate how much "more" Walsh could have drawn in return for any particular deal unless you have some knowledge of intimate executive conversations.

You really think the Clippers wanted to part with Marcus Camby?
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Cosmic
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1/12/2009  9:53 AM
Posted by TheGame:

If you are referring to my comments, I don't care about the losing. In fact, I want the team to lose because we really need to get a top-3 pick and bring some solid talent to the team. What I do care about is Walsh making deals that don't maximize our return. I still believe we could have gotten more from the Clippers for Randolph and Collins. While giving Balkman away for a second rounder is not the worst deal in the world, if all we were going to get is a second rounder, then why not keep Balkman until the trade deadline to see if you can package him with someone else to help a trade deal. We could have gotten a second round pick for Balkman at anytime. So I have no probably with rebuilding, but I do have a problem with not getting the most for our assets, especially since we had so few to begin with.

Just referring in general to everyone who seems to be taking Walsh/Mike to task over the Zach/Craw trades and the 2010 plan. Just speaking out loud....

Zach: Was traded to us for Francis(bought out immediately) and Frye(who is trash). Traded to LAC for Mobley(retired) and TT(trash). Not so sure what is so tough to understand about him. Now it seems we did it at just the right time the guy is on the shelf with a bum knee and has been for weeks. Same knee he was gimping around on here during preseason and the start of the regular season. Would a pick have been nice? Sure but teams were asking US for a pick just to take him off our hands. Jaric and Darko was the other choice we had for him! This should really show that GMs know Zach's stats are pretty empty otherwise we'd have gotten better offers. What was the bucks one? Gadzurich and trash?

Craw: Was traded for the PF of himself with 1 less year on the contract. Is happily chucking his way to losses in Oakland. 3-12, 6-16, 4-18, with the occasional 10-20 in between. Not getting much for that type of player no matter how fancy the dribble is.

Balkman: Yeah I agree it was strange to see that trade go down. Maybe something behind the scenes we just don't know about. Maybe they thought that highly of Robersuck and wanted to open a roster spot asap. I doubt we'll ever know. Could we have gotten more than a #45-50 2nd round pick? Maybe...maybe not...he might have ended up a throw in like Collins did.

So I really believe overall we got fair market value for these guys.
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Cosmic
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1/12/2009  9:57 AM
Yes, this is from Berman, so I'm sure some people will automatically ignore it, yet it's the truth and it's our GM speaking out on the topic at hand here.
NEW ORLEANS - Knicks president Donnie Walsh sounded off yesterday, saying he's unhappy with the Knicks' season spinning out of control, but has no regrets about Nov. 21's landmark deals that cleared cap space for 2010.

In a state-of-the-Knicks New York Knicks address, Walsh did not sound anxious to make another trade as a quick fix or to shake things up, wanting to evaluate the pieces over an 82-game schedule.

Walsh, who rarely travels, has been on this winless southwestern trip that concludes tonight against the Hornets at New Orleans Arena. The Knicks are a season-worst 13-22, on pace for another 50-loss season.

Walsh acknowledged the injury to rookie Danilo Gallinari, who's played just two games, and the unexpected retirement of Cuttino Mobley, a key piece in the trades, has partly caused the crash. The Knicks were 6-5 before the trades - 7-17 since. Walsh would not mention banished Stephon Marbury, the team's most accomplished player who hasn't played.

"That hurt," Walsh said of Gallinari's season-long absence. "It hurts when Mobley has to retire. Those are decisions I made and I know that hurt. On the other hand, I think that by getting the cap space in two years, we got a chance to build a team that makes us a [championship] contender. I don't know without [cap space to sign free agents], if we would've been able to do that with trades, the draft, without it taking a long time."

The only bright note of this 0-3 trip was Dallas point guard Jason Kidd telling the New York media that the Knicks are an option when he becomes a free agent this summer. The Knicks would use their $6 million mid-level exception on Kidd to attract LeBron James.

"It makes me confident that New York is a good place to play," Walsh said, responding to Kidd's remarks. "And people want to play there. I think I said that on my first day. And he's a terrific player."

Because of his imposed restrictions, Walsh indicated it being doubtful he'll make a trade by the Feb. 19 deadline. The only way he'll make a trade is if he gains a solid player who markedly upgrades the roster and one whose contract does not extend past 2010. That may be too much of a heist to pull off, with the Clippers in no rush to trade Marcus Camby.

"If I could get a good player, I'd like to do that," Walsh said. "But I don't want to interfere with two years from now. To a degree, it would have to be something that really helps us. Not just another guy. I'm not going to make a move just to make a move."

Despite their record, the Knicks are, remarkably, just three games out of the eighth seed. But Walsh seems more concerned with evaluations to determine whom to get rid of this summer. Slumping Nate Robinson and David Lee are restricted free agents - and Walsh can match any team's offer. Walsh will listen to offers for Lee at the deadline, but would want a lot of talent back and not one with a contract past 2010. Dumping injured-again Eddy Curry's contract (he reportedly was recently offered to Miami for Shawn Marion and rejected) seems like a lost cause, considering he's battling a weight problem.

Walsh, meanwhile, still has to answer for drafting Gallinari at No. 6. There's a chance Gallinari's bulging disc becomes a chronic problem.

"I'm not a doctor," Walsh said. "Everything I've been told is that he'll come through this. Whether he's playing this year or needs surgery, I have to rely on what I'm being told. At this point no [surgery]."

Walsh isn't ready to drown himself in Lake Pontchartrain. "We lost three games so you can't be happy with that," Walsh said of the trip. "I haven't hung myself or jumped off a bridge yet."

Walsh disputed he'd be happier missing the playoffs to get a lottery pick since the Knicks don't have a 2010 first-rounder.

"I think it's very valuable to make the playoffs," Walsh said. "The playoffs are a whole different ballgame."

*

Curry, who sat out Saturday in Houston after making his debut Thursday, did not practice yesterday at Tulane and may miss tonight. He's battling a sore right knee - not the one he originally injured - because of overcompensation. . . . Making rapid progress in practice, Gallinari could be 7 to 10 days from playing.


Just to reiterate, I tried posting a thread on Kidd's comments and what they meant for our team, and it was turned into a BASH JKIDD thread, and every single person posting in it for whatever reason ignored the VERY reason I posted the thread:


"It makes me confident that New York is a good place to play," Walsh said, responding to Kidd's remarks. "And people want to play there. I think I said that on my first day. And he's a terrific player."

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arkrud
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1/12/2009  9:58 AM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by Cosmic:

All I got to say is LOL at the melt downs fans are having over us sucking this season. As if we were going to be good anyway. For the millionth time, for which the impatient refuse to believe, we started 5-2 against really BAD teams with BAD injuries to boot. Then the mighty ZachCrawKnicks went on a 1-3 skid (wow never seen THAT happen before) and they were traded at JUST the right time.

It's funny reading we should have kept them until the deadline to get more. More for what? Two garbage players? One who is on the shelf and one who is gleefully chucking his way to losses? What else did you think you were going to get?

It amazes me that there are still fans that either choose not to understand or actually don't understand that we are in the process of tearing down Isiah's mess. That will take an additional 18 months to achieve. Then once that is done, in the summer of 2010, we begin to build the team back up.

Then I see threads blasting the tear down because "nobody is coming here in 2010". Oh, really? How do you know that? Even if the top 4 FAs re-sign with their teams or elsewhere that doesn't change the fact that: a) We HAD to tear down Isiah's mess, b) There are other 2nd level free agents to be had, c) There's nothing wrong with throwing your hat into the 2010 FA market ring.

Mike D was a bad hire? Really? A guy with a good resume, a guy players want to play for, being established before the FA market of 2010 was a bad idea? Walsh and MikeD two highly respected basketball people brought in to clean up the mess Isiah Thomas left behind was a bad idea? How so? You mean we might be returned to being a respectable franchise? My god the horror please make it stop!

We're cleaning up Isiah's mess of a roster and mess of an image he turned this proud franchise into. It will take another year and a half to finish cleaning up Isiah's **** stains. It will then take a year or two to build a competitive team. This is what had to be done over 7 years ago and now it's finally being done for real.

So what's all the crying about? I just can't understand. Yearning for 23 and 33 win seasons guided by the chucking of idiotic players? Upset you can no longer start threads about which MLE free agent was going to push us over the top? No more figuring out how to recycle expiring contracts and our draft picks for other team's overpaid losers?

LOL at all the whining and crying about being a bad team. Seriously some people need to get a clue and fast.

If you are referring to my comments, I don't care about the losing. In fact, I want the team to lose because we really need to get a top-3 pick and bring some solid talent to the team. What I do care about is Walsh making deals that don't maximize our return. I still believe we could have gotten more from the Clippers for Randolph and Collins. While giving Balkman away for a second rounder is not the worst deal in the world, if all we were going to get is a second rounder, then why not keep Balkman until the trade deadline to see if you can package him with someone else to help a trade deal. We could have gotten a second round pick for Balkman at anytime. So I have no probably with rebuilding, but I do have a problem with not getting the most for our assets, especially since we had so few to begin with.

You want our GM/coach to be perfect. To win the lottary with every ticket... It is frustrationg to dream about impossible.
There was only one GM/Coach who was right on target all the time - Isiah Tomas. He always was a loser.



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TheGame
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1/12/2009  10:03 AM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by Cosmic:

All I got to say is LOL at the melt downs fans are having over us sucking this season. As if we were going to be good anyway. For the millionth time, for which the impatient refuse to believe, we started 5-2 against really BAD teams with BAD injuries to boot. Then the mighty ZachCrawKnicks went on a 1-3 skid (wow never seen THAT happen before) and they were traded at JUST the right time.

It's funny reading we should have kept them until the deadline to get more. More for what? Two garbage players? One who is on the shelf and one who is gleefully chucking his way to losses? What else did you think you were going to get?

It amazes me that there are still fans that either choose not to understand or actually don't understand that we are in the process of tearing down Isiah's mess. That will take an additional 18 months to achieve. Then once that is done, in the summer of 2010, we begin to build the team back up.

Then I see threads blasting the tear down because "nobody is coming here in 2010". Oh, really? How do you know that? Even if the top 4 FAs re-sign with their teams or elsewhere that doesn't change the fact that: a) We HAD to tear down Isiah's mess, b) There are other 2nd level free agents to be had, c) There's nothing wrong with throwing your hat into the 2010 FA market ring.

Mike D was a bad hire? Really? A guy with a good resume, a guy players want to play for, being established before the FA market of 2010 was a bad idea? Walsh and MikeD two highly respected basketball people brought in to clean up the mess Isiah Thomas left behind was a bad idea? How so? You mean we might be returned to being a respectable franchise? My god the horror please make it stop!

We're cleaning up Isiah's mess of a roster and mess of an image he turned this proud franchise into. It will take another year and a half to finish cleaning up Isiah's **** stains. It will then take a year or two to build a competitive team. This is what had to be done over 7 years ago and now it's finally being done for real.

So what's all the crying about? I just can't understand. Yearning for 23 and 33 win seasons guided by the chucking of idiotic players? Upset you can no longer start threads about which MLE free agent was going to push us over the top? No more figuring out how to recycle expiring contracts and our draft picks for other team's overpaid losers?

LOL at all the whining and crying about being a bad team. Seriously some people need to get a clue and fast.

If you are referring to my comments, I don't care about the losing. In fact, I want the team to lose because we really need to get a top-3 pick and bring some solid talent to the team. What I do care about is Walsh making deals that don't maximize our return. I still believe we could have gotten more from the Clippers for Randolph and Collins. While giving Balkman away for a second rounder is not the worst deal in the world, if all we were going to get is a second rounder, then why not keep Balkman until the trade deadline to see if you can package him with someone else to help a trade deal. We could have gotten a second round pick for Balkman at anytime. So I have no probably with rebuilding, but I do have a problem with not getting the most for our assets, especially since we had so few to begin with.

You want our GM/coach to be perfect. To win the lottary with every ticket... It is frustrationg to dream about impossible.
There was only one GM/Coach who was right on target all the time - Isiah Tomas. He always was a loser.

I am not asking him to be perfect, I am simply stating my opinion that he could have gotten more in these deals.
Trust the Process
misterearl
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1/12/2009  10:17 AM
"Isiah Tomas. He always was a loser."

arkrud - not always (nice spelling by the way)

Okay, Isiah sucked. But if you can cite another Knicks General Manager with better track record with draft picks who turned into productive NBA players, I would certainly like to hear your list.

TheGame - of course, everyone wants more value in return for their dreck, but what evidence makes you think there was a better alternative that was overlooked on any particular deal?

It takes two to tango



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BasketballJones
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1/12/2009  10:19 AM
Yeah, I'm tired of seeing Cap'n Zeke run down too. I still have hope that, once Walsh's basic Laydeness is revealed, Isiah will be reinstalled.
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misterearl
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1/12/2009  10:31 AM
BasketballJones - i was hoping for the reinstallation of Ernie Grunfeld

(the Wizards firing of Eddie Jordan was jacked up)

Walsh is making preliminary chess moves to set up bold moves. Unless someone is inside his head, which they are not - and the shifting economic climate can be accurately predicted - which it can't...

... the best Walsh can do is keep the lines of communication open around the league, get a copy of Dickie V's crib sheet and make certain his international scouts are well-compensated and staying in four star hotels.

After all that, you can bet that half of his deals will be suspect



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TheGame
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1/12/2009  10:33 AM
Posted by misterearl:

"Isiah Tomas. He always was a loser."

arkrud - not always (nice spelling by the way)

Okay, Isiah sucked. But if you can cite another Knicks General Manager with better track record with draft picks who turned into productive NBA players, I would certainly like to hear your list.

TheGame - of course, everyone wants more value in return for their dreck, but what evidence makes you think there was a better alternative that was overlooked on any particular deal?

It takes two to tango

Earl, we gave up a starting PF and a PG who the Clippers are starting for Tim Thomas. Now if we would have gotten Mobley, then maybe that is a decent deal since Mobley could have adequately filled our SG void and we might not have resigned Collins once his rookie deal was up. But after we found out Mobley was hurt, why didn't we nix the deal or just trade Randolph for Thomas and a second rounder. MDA was actually playing Collins before the trade, so it was not like Collins was just lavishing on the bench, and Collins could really help this team out and he had a cap-friendly contract (why keep Roberson and trade Collins for that matter). A deal of Jordan and Thomas for Randolph and even a second round pick from us would have at least given us a solid prospect. And make no mistake, this team is going no where until we get a decent center.

That all being said, I am not giving up on Walsh nor am I saying he cannot get the job done, but his initial deals leave me worried that this guy is not going to make the big splash some people are anticipating over the next 2 years.
Trust the Process
If Donnie Walsh Has Been Clear About His Plan For 2010 - Why The Impatience For Immediate Trades?

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