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Eddy and JJ2 should be kept to use in a Sign and Trade for a Superstar
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kam77
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11/24/2008  4:29 PM
Any Superstar can make more money by signing for 6 years 133mil with their current team. A new team can only offer them 106 mil.

So the most logical way a Superstar NBA FA will switch teams is if he can orchestrate a sign and trade so they get their 133mil contract but alos get to choose a new team.

The old team must either let their Star go for nothing, or try to cop a few assets from the new team.

We have to be able to sign a FA outright, but also need to have expiring contracts and other assets to offer in a sign and trade.

So when the time comes, we can send the Curry/JJ expirings alongside some young talent and picks.
Or maybe Curry and a resigned David Lee, with a couple #1s.

This will maximize chances that we can pay a FA the same amount of money they would make if they stayed with their old team... which typically in the NBA is how things happen (stars rarely leave money on the table). Orlando inked Rashard Lewis in this fashion.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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TMS
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11/24/2008  4:46 PM
i disagree w/u on this one... we can't hold onto cap killer contracts like those & expect to garner value from them when they become expirings... if there's a chance we can dump them now for shorter term deals u do it, no questions asked... Jefferies will likely be here regardless since he's got that God awful trade kicker, but Curry u should absolutely look to trade now if u can... we'll still have either D Lee or Nate to offer up along w/Fishlips if worse comes to worse & we need to work out some kinda S&T, but i don't see that scenario playing out cuz no way would a bigname like Lebron want to come to a team completely stripped of all it's best players, & for a team like CLE to trade Lebron to us u'd have to figure we'd have to give them everything we have including multiple future 1st round picks... the only way we're getting Lebron is by signing him straight up, & the best way to do that is to have the cap space to sign up more talent to come along w/him.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-24-2008 1:46 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
SupremeCommander
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11/24/2008  4:59 PM
The Knicks may have to sign and trade for a superstar. But come on. Under no circumstances will the team giving up the superstar want Eddy Curry or Jared Jeffries included in the deal. Curry just sucks. Jeffries is made of straw and has a trade kicker. The other team isn't going to be enticed by acquiring either and, if anything, will want the Knicks to give up more for having to take on either's disgusting salary and sending a superstar back NY's way.

DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
GKFv2
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11/24/2008  5:17 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

The Knicks may have to sign and trade for a superstar. But come on. Under no circumstances will the team giving up the superstar want Eddy Curry or Jared Jeffries included in the deal. Curry just sucks. Jeffries is made of straw and has a trade kicker. The other team isn't going to be enticed by acquiring either and, if anything, will want the Knicks to give up more for having to take on either's disgusting salary and sending a superstar back NY's way.

Yeah. I don't get the reasoning here.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
kam77
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11/24/2008  5:50 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

The Knicks may have to sign and trade for a superstar. But come on. Under no circumstances will the team giving up the superstar want Eddy Curry or Jared Jeffries included in the deal. Curry just sucks. Jeffries is made of straw and has a trade kicker. The other team isn't going to be enticed by acquiring either and, if anything, will want the Knicks to give up more for having to take on either's disgusting salary and sending a superstar back NY's way.

Yeah. I don't get the reasoning here.

They get expiring deals, forget Curry or JJ the baller. They'd be a contract to make the sign and trade proposal work. But if they'd rather have a resigned David lee instead of one ofht e expiring deals, and we throw in our 2012 #1, then they actually get a couple assets and an expiring they can trade for more picks.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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11/24/2008  5:52 PM
The alternative is that other team watches their FA leave and gets nothing back. Why not try to restock the cupboard a little?

Now, other teams can probably offer comparable deals but if we don't have the contracts to make the s-n-t work, we won't even be invited to the bargaining table.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
kam77
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11/24/2008  5:57 PM
Posted by TMS:

we'll still have either D Lee or Nate to offer up along w/Fishlips if worse comes to worse & we need to work out some kinda S&T,

Essentially what I'm saying.
but i don't see that scenario playing out cuz no way would a bigname like Lebron want to come to a team completely stripped of all it's best players, & for a team like CLE to trade Lebron to us u'd have to figure we'd have to give them everything we have including multiple future 1st round picks...


Ahh but we wouldn't be stripped of talent since if we get someone via s-n-t we still have 40 mil to go get 2 OTHER stars. Imagine that? Getting a star via trade for existing contracts preserves the rest of the cap space. We could sign 3 max guys.
the only way we're getting Lebron is by signing him straight up, & the best way to do that is to have the cap space to sign up more talent to come along w/him.

If we sign him straight up, CLE can outbid us by 27 million. We need to have the room to sign him straight up AND the sassets to work a s-n-t. Think of it as an insurance policy on our cap space plan. If CLE wants to work a s-n-t and if LeBron wants the s-n-t- we need to be ready to deal.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TMS
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11/24/2008  6:02 PM
Ahh but we wouldn't be stripped of talent since if we get someone via s-n-t we still have 40 mil to go get 2 OTHER stars. Imagine that? Getting a star via trade for existing contracts preserves the rest of the cap space. We could sign 3 max guys.

not true... we'll only have enough cap space to sign 3 max guys if we dump Curry & Jefferies' contract now for expirings... trading them in a S&T has no beneficial effect to our cap & we'd only have enough to really sign 2 max guys, & they'd have no one left to play with when u consider we'd also be giving up Chandler, Gallo & either Lee or Nate along w/a pick or 2 when it's all said & done (not that CLE would have enough roster spots to even make that type of deal possible to begin with)... we have to face facts, signing & trading for Lebron is an even more remote possibility than signing him outright... the ONLY way we can ever think about a realistic S&T scenario is if we draft an absolute STUD in this year's draft, & combine that kid w/a re-signed Lee or Nate & Jefferies' expiring in 2010, & that's still a huge stretch.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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11/24/2008  6:07 PM
Posted by TMS:
Ahh but we wouldn't be stripped of talent since if we get someone via s-n-t we still have 40 mil to go get 2 OTHER stars. Imagine that? Getting a star via trade for existing contracts preserves the rest of the cap space. We could sign 3 max guys.

not true... we'll only have enough cap space to sign 3 max guys if we dump Curry & Jefferies' contract now for expirings...

OK timeout. Lets not argue the semantics. Lets do the math.

We already have 40 mil in cap space for 2010.
Say we trade Curry now like you say, fine. We're giving that money to Nate and DLee anyway. Its a wash.
DLee and JJ2 = 18 mil in 2010. Thats the starting salary for our s-n-t FA (say LeBron).

We still have the same 40 mil minus whatever we gave Nate plus the savings of Lee over Curry.

Still enough for 2 more FAs to add to LeBron.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TMS
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11/24/2008  6:17 PM
the point i'm making is, we need to trade Curry for an expiring now & trade D Lee for a 1st round pick... that will save us about $17-19 mil off the cap in 2010, which gives us the cap space we need to attract another top name, plus we get to keep the young player we drafted w/the pick we got in the D Lee trade... the worst thing we can do is hold onto Curry & not get anything back in a trade for D Lee... let's be realistic here, we're not getting Lebron, Bosh or anyone else in a trade centered around David Lee or Nate Robinson.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
ramtour420
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11/24/2008  6:20 PM
Here is the thing, its either max $ or realistic chance to win a ring. If Lebron is after a ring and better market and better team, he'll have to take a bit of a paycut to leave Cleveland. I don't think its possible to do a sign and trade for a sooper dooper star like james , have crap for a team afterwards and win a ring. In a big trade like that, the team will be giving future picks away and that don't help either. This is actually one of the hardest things about making a championship team imo, get a superstar while keeping enough players around to have a chance. 2 superstars is even harder, u can't just win with 2 ppl and rest of the team rookies/sophomores. Spurs is a perfect example of this, Timmy agreed to much less $ to win it all.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
VDesai
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11/24/2008  7:11 PM
Sign and trade is a lot tricker than sign out right.
Knicksfan
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11/24/2008  7:33 PM
This is getting out of hand and we are still in 2008.

Signing three stars to max contracts? Who would like that? Firs of all its unlikely. Second of all, its not recommended. The game of basketball is still a team game as far as I know, so why starts starpuching more than is needed? I can understand wanting to sign Lebron and Bosh because both not only complement but would be a nice pair of star leaders but championship teams usually have this pair of stars along with very talented bench players, and that right now is our main goal.

Now, a sign and trade is too unlikely at this point because the Knicks right now wouldn't have a lot to offer. You also have to count on the stars signing here to want to win, so they would rather leave the team intact than force a sign and trade that leaves them practically in a rebuilding situation.

Lets just play the 2010 game thinking we will simply sign them and worry about the details in 20 months.
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crzymdups
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11/24/2008  7:42 PM
no one wants eddy or jj in a sign and trade. what is the point of getting an expiring deal when you are losing the superstar to free agency and you could just take the cap room immediately rather than wait a year?
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islesfan
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11/24/2008  7:59 PM
Eddy and JJ2 wouldn't be enough in a trade for a present day Dr J.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
loweyecue
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11/24/2008  8:51 PM
Nice argument Kam 77 with one serious flaw. You keep talking about "assets" but you named a couple of "libilities" for the role. Not exactly the same thing ...
TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
Panos
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11/24/2008  10:50 PM
Dude... Who gave JJ2 a trade kicker? Oooooh... Right...

Fuckin dumbass.
VDesai
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11/24/2008  10:59 PM
I brought up this very scenario on Sunday. I still think we can get two FA's without moving either Eddy or JJ (roughly 40 mil of cap space?). But if we don'trade Eddy or Jared we may jeapordize any chance of re-signing Lee and/or Nate.
Knicksfan
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11/24/2008  11:07 PM
Posted by Panos:

Dude... Who gave JJ2 a trade kicker? Oooooh... Right...

Fuckin dumbass.

His impact on the team its still felt. And lets not talk about draft picks...
Knicks_Fan
subzero0
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11/25/2008  12:29 AM
Posted by kam77:

Any Superstar can make more money by signing for 6 years 133mil with their current team. A new team can only offer them 106 mil.

So the most logical way a Superstar NBA FA will switch teams is if he can orchestrate a sign and trade so they get their 133mil contract but alos get to choose a new team.

The old team must either let their Star go for nothing, or try to cop a few assets from the new team.

We have to be able to sign a FA outright, but also need to have expiring contracts and other assets to offer in a sign and trade.

So when the time comes, we can send the Curry/JJ expirings alongside some young talent and picks.
Or maybe Curry and a resigned David Lee, with a couple #1s.

This will maximize chances that we can pay a FA the same amount of money they would make if they stayed with their old team... which typically in the NBA is how things happen (stars rarely leave money on the table). Orlando inked Rashard Lewis in this fashion.

Almost, the Knicks should have traded Curry and JJ2 for cap space nobody's and should have traded Zach and/or Crawford for stars or good draft picks. Stars that could have been used to attract a player of Lebron James' caliber. The difference really is in the current value of the players. But it looks like that is not going to happen now.

Instead in a few years from now, after James turns us down we are going to likely sign a couple of good players who will lead the Knicks to the playoffs year after year only to be beaten into a pulp by better teams. This trend will continue to happen until the management is fired and the rebuilding process starts over, albeit after a couple of patch work player additions that will not help us 'get over the hump'.

Sit back and relax Kam, it is going to be a long time before we see a championship team.
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