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The John Gabriel hiring is underrated
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GKFv2
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11/24/2008  5:33 AM
I understand he is the Director of Scouting but I think he is definitely working with Walsh as a "capologist" of sorts. After all, he was the one managed to get so far under the cap in 2000 to sign Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. Those moves could have worked out much better had Hill not become a gimp in his entire stint in Orlando. I think this guy will help Walsh with how we should structure our contracts and who we can fit under the cap and still have room to sign 2 big free agent stars in 2010. I think Walsh hired Gabriel partly because of 2010 and I think it is an underrated hiring.

BTW Gabriel did draft the Rookie of the Year Mike Miller and Corey Maggette but his drafting record is spotty. Keyon Dooling at 10, Courtney Alexander at 13 and Doleac at 12 left a lot to be desired.

But like I said, he's more important in that he was one of the best at clearing contracts to get so far under the cap and sign two guys to max deals. I think it's always good to have a guy who was successful at it(not in terms of wins of course but the execution) when we're doing this.
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NYKBocker
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11/24/2008  8:42 AM
If we can get Isiah's head right, maybe we can have him be lead scout. What the heck am I saying? boooo!
Pharzeone
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11/24/2008  11:48 AM
What did Gabriel do? Bascially, these are the same trades that were discuss before his hiring. Hell you might as well give UK posters as much credit as you want to give Gabriel since they came up with this before he was part of the organization.
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Nalod
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11/24/2008  12:05 PM
Orlando got to the finals.
Knicksfan
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11/24/2008  12:23 PM
Posted by NYKBocker:

If we can get Isiah's head right, maybe we can have him be lead scout. What the heck am I saying? boooo!

I wouldn't mind that as he has showed he does have the eye for picking up great talent. And the draft is too important for us to mess with...
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SupremeCommander
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11/24/2008  12:36 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

What did Gabriel do? Bascially, these are the same trades that were discuss before his hiring. Hell you might as well give UK posters as much credit as you want to give Gabriel since they came up with this before he was part of the organization.

But from a business strategy perspective, it is so much tougher to accomplish your aims when the guy you're trading with knows what you're after.

So everyone knew, the organization achieved its goals, and a lot of posters here seem to think the Knicks didn't take a step back.

I'm with GKF, Gabriel's experience in getting two premier max FA's is likely paying dividends know and will in the future.
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Solace
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11/24/2008  12:38 PM
Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Knicksfan
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11/24/2008  1:28 PM
Posted by Solace:

Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.

Thats not fair to his picks, at least the low ones. If there is only something that he did to help us is pick good players.
Knicks_Fan
Solace
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11/24/2008  1:32 PM
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by Solace:

Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.

Thats not fair to his picks, at least the low ones. If there is only something that he did to help us is pick good players.

The point is that Isiah never changed what player he would take based on draft position. Whether we had pick 8, 23 or 43, he would take the same player. Obviously, his second round picks weren't what I was referring to. He did decent in the draft, as in respectable. He's no draft genius by any means. The only reason anyone can point to his drafting is because everything else about him was among the worst in NBA history. I could see him as scout, but I give him zero power to make any decisions.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Nalod
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11/24/2008  2:41 PM

Forget Isiah.

He is forgotten.

Call him "uncle Lunesta"
sebstar
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11/24/2008  2:46 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by Solace:

Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.

Thats not fair to his picks, at least the low ones. If there is only something that he did to help us is pick good players.

The point is that Isiah never changed what player he would take based on draft position. Whether we had pick 8, 23 or 43, he would take the same player. Obviously, his second round picks weren't what I was referring to. He did decent in the draft, as in respectable. He's no draft genius by any means. The only reason anyone can point to his drafting is because everything else about him was among the worst in NBA history. I could see him as scout, but I give him zero power to make any decisions.

Frye blows your argument up. He wasnt anywhere near the most athletic guy available.

You're just criticizing for criticizing sake. Getting players the caliber of Nate, Lee, Chandler, Ariza in slots 20 or higher shows an obvious drafting acumen. GM's would kill for that that kind of resume. But your bent against Isiah prevents you from giving credit where credit is due.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Uptown
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11/24/2008  3:22 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by Solace:

Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.

Thats not fair to his picks, at least the low ones. If there is only something that he did to help us is pick good players.

The point is that Isiah never changed what player he would take based on draft position. Whether we had pick 8, 23 or 43, he would take the same player. Obviously, his second round picks weren't what I was referring to. He did decent in the draft, as in respectable. He's no draft genius by any means. The only reason anyone can point to his drafting is because everything else about him was among the worst in NBA history. I could see him as scout, but I give him zero power to make any decisions.

Frye blows your argument up. He wasnt anywhere near the most athletic guy available.

You're just criticizing for criticizing sake. Getting players the caliber of Nate, Lee, Chandler, Ariza in slots 20 or higher shows an obvious drafting acumen. GM's would kill for that that kind of resume. But your bent against Isiah prevents you from giving credit where credit is due.

Good points here. You beat me to it. I'm no Isiah fan either, but the talent he has picked late in the first round are keepers. Lee, picked 30, almost yeilded us a top 5 pick this year and a top 7 pick last year.

Nate is a really good 6th man, Chanlder picked 23 is one of the top 6 players from his draft class. Ariza is an intrical part to a Lakers team looking to make a championship run. His picks, considering where he made them are pretty good.
Solace
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11/24/2008  3:36 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Knicksfan:
Posted by Solace:

Isiah's eye for talent is merely average; it's really not anything special.

Basically, the Isiah draft process:

1) Determine the most athletic player.
2) Draft him 20 slots too high.

Thats not fair to his picks, at least the low ones. If there is only something that he did to help us is pick good players.

The point is that Isiah never changed what player he would take based on draft position. Whether we had pick 8, 23 or 43, he would take the same player. Obviously, his second round picks weren't what I was referring to. He did decent in the draft, as in respectable. He's no draft genius by any means. The only reason anyone can point to his drafting is because everything else about him was among the worst in NBA history. I could see him as scout, but I give him zero power to make any decisions.

Frye blows your argument up. He wasnt anywhere near the most athletic guy available.

You're just criticizing for criticizing sake. Getting players the caliber of Nate, Lee, Chandler, Ariza in slots 20 or higher shows an obvious drafting acumen. GM's would kill for that that kind of resume. But your bent against Isiah prevents you from giving credit where credit is due.

Wow, you have one example over a lot of Isiah picks. He has three solid picks to his resume and a load of terrible ones, especially the wasting of the #8 pick on a guy that most GMs knew was a backup center. This has been discussed before. Frye was a god awful pick. The fact that Isiah couldn't do anything with high picks says a lot about him, don't you think? If the claim is he can find diamonds in the rough, there may be something to do that. But he had a ton of trouble finding diamonds in plain sight. He wasn't great, but don't let me interfere with the closet Isiah love.

Not to mention that the jury is still out on a few Isiah picks. Isiah picks always look like studs up front because they're more athletic. However, it often turns out to be that that's their only skill.

[Edited by - Solace on Nov 24 2008 3:38 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
sebstar
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11/24/2008  4:02 PM
You're just rambling now and making stuff up (a load of terrible picks?? How many lottery picks did he have here again?). Frye being a poor pick was not your original premise; you were trying to invalidate Zeke's drafting resume by arguing that somehow his successful picks were thought-free because he simply picked the most athletic guy available like a blind guy hitting a dart board.

Thats obviously false: Frye, Lee are quick examples so you're just shifting the argument to Zeke's biggest draft blunder. You top it off by positioning anybody that acknowledges that Zeke is a good drafter as somehow a "Zeke lover". This is kindergarten stuff.
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Solace
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11/24/2008  4:07 PM
Posted by sebstar:

You're just rambling now and making stuff up (a load of terrible picks?? How many lottery picks did he have here again?). Frye being a poor pick was not your original premise; you were trying to invalidate Zeke's drafting resume by arguing that somehow his successful picks were thought-free because he simply picked the most athletic guy available like a blind guy hitting a dart board.

Thats obviously false: Frye, Lee are quick examples so you're just shifting the argument to Zeke's biggest draft blunder. You top it off by positioning anybody that acknowledges that Zeke is a good drafter as somehow a "Zeke lover". This is kindergarten stuff.

Uh ok. First, has Zeke not has his share of bad picks? If you disagree, that's up to you. Secondly, has Zeke not had almost every pick be the most athletic guy left on the board? In almost all cases, this was also true. Thirdly, have not a lot of Zeke's picks been considered reaches at the position he took them at? Where's the argument here? I'm simply stating that Zeke has been decent, but let's go crazy when it remains to be seen if any of his picks will be any better than a sixth man (no, starting on a 23 win team doesn't make you a starter).

[Edited by - Solace on Nov 24 2008 4:07 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
sebstar
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11/24/2008  4:28 PM
What does that mean?? Obviously the so called "experts" were wrong. The fact that they turned out to be good players and more than justifiable picks means nothing? All that matters is how the "experts" had them rated going into the draft? And despite what anybody says there was no guarantee that those players would have been available later.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
TMS
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11/24/2008  4:41 PM
getting back to the topic, i agree w/u GK... Gabriel was the mastermind behind what ORL did by clearing cap to sign up T-Mac & Hill & i have no doubt Walsh hired him to help him make some sense of the cap mess Isiah left behind also.
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Solace
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11/24/2008  4:44 PM
Posted by sebstar:

What does that mean?? Obviously the so called "experts" were wrong. The fact that they turned out to be good players and more than justifiable picks means nothing? All that matters is how the "experts" had them rated going into the draft? And despite what anybody says there was no guarantee that those players would have been available later.

Ok, well then we disagree. I think a lot of them were predicted to be crud and then turned out to be crud, but we can agree to disagree if you feel differently.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
sebstar
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11/24/2008  5:18 PM
Fair enough, but I think if you open up your mind a little, you'll admit that Zeke's drafting record is legit. Shipping out his trade mistakes has left us, largely, with a core of young, marketable talent. Thats not even taking into account his draft record with Toronto either.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
eViL
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11/24/2008  5:30 PM
Isiah thought Eddy Curry was better than any of the first round talent in the 2006 and 2007 draft. That's a major hit to his draft cred even if it didn't involve drafting anyone.
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