Posted by TMS:

Steph is an enigma... all the talent to be an alltime great but way too arrogant & selfish to ever realize it... there was no doubt in my mind this team would improve just by having him far away from the team... it allows the other guys to finally focus on playing basketball w/o the constant side show shenanigans & tabloid headlines in the newspapers.

i can't wait til i see him playing at the garden in another team's uniform so Knick fans can show him how they really feel about him.

Posted by Panos:

Posted by TMS:

Steph is an enigma... all the talent to be an alltime great but way too arrogant & selfish to ever realize it... there was no doubt in my mind this team would improve just by having him far away from the team... it allows the other guys to finally focus on playing basketball w/o the constant side show shenanigans & tabloid headlines in the newspapers.

i can't wait til i see him playing at the garden in another team's uniform so Knick fans can show him how they really feel about him.

Bro, I hear your points, but its WAY more than what goes on in the press.
The point guard of a team needs to lead by example, to be the steadying hand.
Steph alienates every one of his teammates, and has trust in none of them.
It shows, and it has effect on how they play. ScowlBury's bad attitude casts a long shadow over his teammates, esp when he was supposed to be the best player on the team -- and had the management's blessing to do as he pleased.
Good riddance.

Posted by newyorknewyork:

This truthfully this is the first time that it was without a doubt proven that a team got better just by getting rid of him rather then replacing him with someone better. You could argue every situation from Minny to Pheniox. This one you can't

Looking back to when he was younger though and strictly looking at his on court skills. It was clear that Marbury couldn't run a 5 man offense. But was great in a 2 man game with a skilled PF or something. I don't get why more teams didn't look to add in a 2nd pg to help with the load of running a 5 man offense while allowing Marbury to do what he does best in a 2 man game with the PF. Marbury might have actually had more success on the court if he had a guy like Duhon to play along with to take that burden away from him since he wasn't that good at it when he was younger.

I remember when Iverson went to the finals he had Eric Snow & Aron Mckie around him doing all the things Iverson didn't while Iverson racked up on pts and ast. I don't believe Iverson would have had that success without the balance they provided him.

Posted by knicks1248:

It's also amazing how a guy who was a career 8ast man can be considered selfish.

Posted by BlueSeats:

Posted by knicks1248:

It's also amazing how a guy who was a career 8ast man can be considered selfish.

I don't call Steph selfish, but I don't think he's a smart player.

8 apg is not that hard when you dribble the ball for 20 secs and then pitch it to someone who has to put it up before the clock expires. The PG gets high assists, but the rest of the team gets low assists.

I've been known to do my homework on Steph and this is an area I investigated long ago. I'll include an old post of mine below. The tone is a bit dated now, but when I first wrote it most Knick fans were convince Marbury was a top 3 PG who would deliver us a trophy on his way to the HOF. Those were simpler times back then.

Okay, Anji, this is for you.

I wrote this 51 games into the 04-05 season, a month or so after his "I'm the best" comments, when the vast majority of my message board mates thought he had the right to consider himself such. I was told all we had to do was get rid of Lenny and Kurt and we'd be "well on our way."

I haven't updated the data since then, but we all know how he's struggled with coaches, and how uninspired our offense still is.

One note is that I don't think wins and TAs are in direct correlation. For instance, it's not as if each year the team with the best record leads the league in team assists. But I think it is indicative of a style of play, one that seems to follow Marbury around, and transcends coaches and team make-up.

Anyway...

-------

Marbury and team assists (TAs)

I'd like to make a presentation of what I believe separates Marbury from the great scoring PGs of the game.

I do this for two reasons,

A) I keep hearing people say Marbury is a great PG, even though people like Bob Cousy and his former coach (COY) D'Antioni have since echoed my sentiments to the contrary. By his supporters I'm told Marbury's 8 apg prove his greatness, but I believe larger career trends tell far more.

B) I continually see people say "you can't win with a PG leading your team in scoring." History proves that statement blatantly false. There may be others I'm not aware of, but I know of three PGs who led their team in scoring on their way to a championship:

Clyde, 1973 Knicks.
Magic, 1986 Lakers
Isiah, 1990 Pistons

However, these men not only were good scorers, but good playmakers too. They not only put up good personal stats, but good team stats as well.

I believe one relevant indicator of an offense with good ball movement is team assists (TA). Team assists are the total of all assisted shots, including, but not limited to, the point guard. High team assists is suggestive of ball movement not solely emanating from the PG position. It's "the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the bucket" approach. It's the antithesis of the stagnant offense we presently see on the Knicks, where the ball is pounded on the perimeter, or passed back and forth on the perimeter, until late in the clock. Thi stagnant offense yields low percentage jumpers, and frequently Marbury never relinquishes the ball for the entire possession. He brings it up-court, dribbles around the perimeter, then drives it in himelf.

Below are relevant team assist stats for Clyde, Magic and Isiah's teams. These men arrived at clubs which were under-performing and produced immediate and lasting positive impacts on team assists and wins. And, with the exception of Clyde, who left his duties in the capable hands of HOFer Monroe, their departure was met by a concomitant falloff in production and success.

Isiah and Magic spent their entire careers with one club, and retired before their time for health reasons. Clyde moved once (to Cleveland) in the twilight of his career.

Below I show the teams of each of these PGs before they arrived, then their impact, then the team after they left. The relevant variables noted are the year, team assists, win-loss record, and in parenthesis the personal stats of the PG of the time.


Knicks:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
67 22.0 36-49 (Komives 15.7 ppg/6.2 apg)
68 24.0 43-39 (Clyde rookie 9.0/4.1)
73 26.7 57-25 (Clyde 21.1/5.9, leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
77 23.9 40-42 (17.4/5.3 Clyde's last season as Knick)
78 28.5 43-39 (Monroe 17.8/4.8)


Above we see TAs increase with the arrival of Clyde. However, they did not decrease after his departure with the ball in Monroe's HOF hands.

------

Lakers:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
79 28.5 47-35 (Nixon 17.1/9.0 (very impressive!))
80 29.4 60-22 (Magic rookie 18/7.3 Championship)
86 29.6 65-17 (Magic 23.9/12.2 leads team in scoring, wins championship)
91 25.5 58-24 (Magic's last healthy season, 19.4 ppg 7.0 rpg 12.5 apg)
92 22.0 39-43 (Threatt 15.1/7.2)

------

Pistons:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
81 22.2 21-61 (Not sure who the PG was)
82 24.7 39-43 (Isiah rookie 17/7.8 )
90 24.3 59-23 (Isiah 18.4/9.4 leads team in scoring, wins Championship)
93 23.7 40-42 (Isiah's last healthy year 17.6/8.5)
95 22.8 28-54 (Dumars 18.1/5.5)

------

Now, in contrast, we'll see Marbury has moved around a lot in his young career. And aside from a brief improvement to his first club, Minnesota (which also coincides with the comeuppance of Garnett and the apex of Gogliotta's career), at each stop his arrival brings a decline in both team assists and wins, while his departure brings a surge. This is the opposite of the greats above.

Minny:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
'96 22.8 26-56 (Porter 9.4/5.5)
'97 22.9 40-42 (Marbury 15.8/7.8 )
'98 25.2 45-37 (Marbury 17.7/8.6)
'99 24.4 25-25 (Marbury 17.7/9.3, Brandon 14.2/9.8, Marbury traded 18 games in ) (lockout season)
'00 26.9 50-32 (Brandon 17.1/8.9)

What stands out to me is that Marbury's energy and production over the aging Porter does result in an initial boost to the club, (as does the maturation of Garnett). Note how wins coincide with team assists, and the surge in team assists after Marbury fully departs.

Nets:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
98 20.5 43-39 (Cassell 19.6/8.0)
99 18.4 16-34 (Marbury 23.4/8.7, Cassell 18/4.8, Cassell only played in 4 games)
00 20.6 31-51 (Marbury 22.2/8.4)
01 19.5 26-56 (Marbury 23.9/7.6)
02 24.3 50-32 (Kidd 14.7/9.9)

Note again how wins track team assists and the surge in TAs (and wins) upon Marbury's departure.

Suns:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
01 23.2 51-39 (Kidd 16.9/9.8 )
02 22.4 36-46 (Marbury 20.4/8.1)
03 21.0 44-38 (Marbury 22.3/8.1)
04 19.3 29-53 (Marbury/Eisley/Barbosa)
05 23.1 40-12 (Nash 16.3/11.3)

With the exception of '03, wins again closely track team assists and in that stat (team assists regardless that his personals don't keep up with them either) Marbury can't keep pace with the premium PGs, like Brandon, Nash and Kidd.

Knicks:
YR, TA, Record, PG Stats
03 22.7 37-45 (Ward 7.2/4.6 Eisley 9.1/5.4)
04 20.7 39-43 (Marbury/Ward/Eisley)
05 19.6 20-31 (Marbury 21.3/8.2)

If ever there were an opportunity for Steph to reverse the trends it was with the Knicks, a team known for years as a slow, unatheletic, jumpshooting squad with poor ball movement and sub-standard PGs. Even with a clean house, and presumably a better, retooled lineup, Steph keeps pace with his career trends and we see an overall reduction in team assists and wins.

Those team records encompass his entire career. A close reading will reveal he's never won more than 45 games in a season and most seasons were spent well below .500

I remember those debates we used to have blue seats.... Boy were they something.. LOL... I even remember this post. what the hell do you do with these things? archive them in MS word.. I bet you even have some sort of filing system for all relevant post.... LOL... Damn, gotta watch my step..... hahaha

Posted by tkf:

Posted by Panos:

Posted by newyorknewyork:

This truthfully this is the first time that it was without a doubt proven that a team got better just by getting rid of him rather then replacing him with someone better. You could argue every situation from Minny to Pheniox. This one you can't

Looking back to when he was younger though and strictly looking at his on court skills. It was clear that Marbury couldn't run a 5 man offense. But was great in a 2 man game with a skilled PF or something. I don't get why more teams didn't look to add in a 2nd pg to help with the load of running a 5 man offense while allowing Marbury to do what he does best in a 2 man game with the PF. Marbury might have actually had more success on the court if he had a guy like Duhon to play along with to take that burden away from him since he wasn't that good at it when he was younger.

I remember when Iverson went to the finals he had Eric Snow & Aron Mckie around him doing all the things Iverson didn't while Iverson racked up on pts and ast. I don't believe Iverson would have had that success without the balance they provided him.

Iverson also busts his ass on defense, gets steals, and doesn't sit there with a towel over his head.

I agree, Iverson leads on the court, he does a lot of things out there that shows his teamates " I got your back".. Just two different types of teamates...