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How long have we been rebuilding.
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knicks1248
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11/4/2008  10:50 PM
It seems like a very long time. You guys keep talking about the lottery like it's been working for us. Im not sold on Lee and nate just yet, and that makes things look even worse. If lee gets expose on a nightly bases ( like he has been)and were loosing you can expect his stock to plummet. Even if we are lucky and get a really high pick, the greg odens of the world may be our next mis fortune. Rebuilding seems like a hit or miss badly and you can be set back for 10 years.

In the last seven years look at what the knicks have become, jesus were benching star players, we have the same roster primarily for the last 4 years, were still trying to evaluate 4 year players, We are on our 5th or 6th (lost count) coach, 3 Gms, maybe 20 to 30 players, and we still don't have clue.

Now were banking on signing super star players to this pathetic franchise.
We need to win and we need to take a huge leap this year in every direction of the franchise. Im really getting sick of being a clown as knick fan or a fan of a clown ass franchise that seems to make all the wrong moves in the center of the basketball nation

Then some say rebuilding is a good idea In our market.
ES
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nyk4ever
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11/4/2008  10:51 PM
We really never started rebuilding.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TMS
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11/4/2008  10:54 PM
what do u propose we do? make every starphuch deal we can realistically get our hands on right now so we can eek out another 1st round exit out of the playoffs year after year & then end up right back where we are now 5 years from now? i doubt u'd be happy w/that bro.

there comes a time where u have to bite the bullet & make some tough choices for the good of the longterm goal, which is trying to build for a championship... no more stopgap solutions... we gotta build up through the draft & collect young assets that other teams will want to trade for... we gotta free up cap space & be players in 2010... seems like a logical plan of action to me.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
SlimPack
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11/4/2008  11:05 PM
nyk4ever is right. We never really started rebuilding so you can't really say that it doesn't work. In any case we do need to rebuild, and stock up on assets. This team is too far off from being able to win not to rebuild.
GKFv2
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11/4/2008  11:07 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

We really never started rebuilding.

Yep.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
knicks1248
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11/4/2008  11:18 PM
Right.... and again, we have the same roster with a couple of assets.Build through what draft, who's to say we get that right, assets like what Fredrick Wies and some college stud and nba flame outs. We have a very long history of poor draft selections. We got ewing and It took 10 years for him to get allan, spree, camby and LJ, by then it was to late.

Im saying we haven't done anything right since..well..a very long time. What you guy's are basically saying is, we are in for 10 more years of medicracy on top of the 7 we just got through.

There's got to be a smarter way.
ES
TMS
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11/4/2008  11:30 PM
see, this is what the horrible past has brought us to... a fan base w/absolutely no faith in the organization to do the right thing & draft wisely, & much of that is warranted... i understand how u feel, believe me, but the fact remains that's the best & only real way we can truly rebuild this thing from the ground up... trades like the Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, etc. moves are not gonna cut it anymore, it's pretty clear even to the most avid supporter of those moves when they went down... we gotta change the philosophy & change the M.O. of this entire organization if we wanna see any real change come about in the near future.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nyk4ever
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11/4/2008  11:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

see, this is what the horrible past has brought us to... a fan base w/absolutely no faith in the organization to do the right thing & draft wisely, & much of that is warranted... i understand how u feel, believe me, but the fact remains that's the best & only real way we can truly rebuild this thing from the ground up... trades like the Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, etc. moves are not gonna cut it anymore, it's pretty clear even to the most avid supporter of those moves when they went down... we gotta change the philosophy & change the M.O. of this entire organization if we wanna see any real change come about in the near future.

Wait you mean trading for Marbury and Randolph was bad
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TMS
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11/4/2008  11:34 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by TMS:

see, this is what the horrible past has brought us to... a fan base w/absolutely no faith in the organization to do the right thing & draft wisely, & much of that is warranted... i understand how u feel, believe me, but the fact remains that's the best & only real way we can truly rebuild this thing from the ground up... trades like the Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, etc. moves are not gonna cut it anymore, it's pretty clear even to the most avid supporter of those moves when they went down... we gotta change the philosophy & change the M.O. of this entire organization if we wanna see any real change come about in the near future.

Wait you mean trading for Marbury and Randolph was bad

not as good as the McDyess trade.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nyk4ever
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11/4/2008  11:36 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by TMS:

see, this is what the horrible past has brought us to... a fan base w/absolutely no faith in the organization to do the right thing & draft wisely, & much of that is warranted... i understand how u feel, believe me, but the fact remains that's the best & only real way we can truly rebuild this thing from the ground up... trades like the Zach Randolph, Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, etc. moves are not gonna cut it anymore, it's pretty clear even to the most avid supporter of those moves when they went down... we gotta change the philosophy & change the M.O. of this entire organization if we wanna see any real change come about in the near future.

Wait you mean trading for Marbury and Randolph was bad

not as good as the McDyess trade.

How the hell did I forget that one. We've made some sick moves.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
CrushAlot
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11/4/2008  11:37 PM
Since 2001 when Van Gundy left.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
knicks1248
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11/5/2008  12:49 AM
It all started with Glenn Rice, the ending of The JVG era, TMS there's nothing to be optimistic about when you have been through what we have. We have been in dis agreemnet with the rebuilding process for years. I see franchise's like SA and Houston go from David Robinson to tim duncun, or Hakeem to Yoa Ming within a 2 to 3 year down side. Rebuilding or even retooling has to be down smart. The one thing ( I believe you said years ago or BIP) we should have traded Spree and allan after the 99 season, The transition would have been much smoother, and probably cost us a year 2. It's been bad move after bad draft after bad move.

The steph thing no matter how it play's out has management looking no smarter then The IT regime. And DG ( i know it's early) is anything but impressive. I remember when we got allan,LJ, camby and spree, right about the time people thought management was assinine for getting rid of starks and oakly, who manage only 2 more productive years. Now were taking the oaks and the starks of the NBA, with no franchise player in there prime already on board.

The pipe dream for Bron and them is so stupid, I cant believe people take it serious. I wouldn't mind builing through the draft if we were going to be assured of a top 3 pick, but we can't even do that right



ES
SlimPack
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11/5/2008  1:13 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

It all started with Glenn Rice, the ending of The JVG era, TMS there's nothing to be optimistic about when you have been through what we have. We have been in dis agreemnet with the rebuilding process for years. I see franchise's like SA and Houston go from David Robinson to tim duncun, or Hakeem to Yoa Ming within a 2 to 3 year down side. Rebuilding or even retooling has to be down smart. The one thing ( I believe you said years ago or BIP) we should have traded Spree and allan after the 99 season, The transition would have been much smoother, and probably cost us a year 2. It's been bad move after bad draft after bad move.

The steph thing no matter how it play's out has management looking no smarter then The IT regime. And DG ( i know it's early) is anything but impressive. I remember when we got allan,LJ, camby and spree, right about the time people thought management was assinine for getting rid of starks and oakly, who manage only 2 more productive years. Now were taking the oaks and the starks of the NBA, with no franchise player in there prime already on board.

The pipe dream for Bron and them is so stupid, I cant believe people take it serious. I wouldn't mind builing through the draft if we were going to be assured of a top 3 pick, but we can't even do that right



Yao and Duncan were no. 1 picks. You gotta be in it to win it. and the Knicks basically haven't been in it anytime recently because our picks have either been traded or higher than 1-5 due to the team trying (and failing) to win now.
TMS
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11/5/2008  1:51 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

It all started with Glenn Rice, the ending of The JVG era, TMS there's nothing to be optimistic about when you have been through what we have. We have been in dis agreemnet with the rebuilding process for years. I see franchise's like SA and Houston go from David Robinson to tim duncun, or Hakeem to Yoa Ming within a 2 to 3 year down side. Rebuilding or even retooling has to be down smart. The one thing ( I believe you said years ago or BIP) we should have traded Spree and allan after the 99 season, The transition would have been much smoother, and probably cost us a year 2. It's been bad move after bad draft after bad move.

The steph thing no matter how it play's out has management looking no smarter then The IT regime. And DG ( i know it's early) is anything but impressive. I remember when we got allan,LJ, camby and spree, right about the time people thought management was assinine for getting rid of starks and oakly, who manage only 2 more productive years. Now were taking the oaks and the starks of the NBA, with no franchise player in there prime already on board.

The pipe dream for Bron and them is so stupid, I cant believe people take it serious. I wouldn't mind builing through the draft if we were going to be assured of a top 3 pick, but we can't even do that right



like i said, what other alternative do we have? do u wanna go the starphuch route til we die? what do u want dude... i don't get what the 2010 naysayers are trying to say, as if they have such a better plan for this franchise to reach the level we're trying to get to.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
4949
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11/5/2008  2:28 AM
Posted by knicks1248:

It seems like a very long time.

Mmmm, like since 1974.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Bippity10
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11/5/2008  5:56 AM
Building: Find a star player. Find complimentary players that can make the star player better through their complimentary skills, and vice versa. It doesn't matter how that occurs. Whether you do it through the draft, trades or free agency, this is still what you have to do. Most championship teams build by putting themselves in position to be successful in the draft(high picks), making trades(having players who make a salary equivalent with their skills) and signing free agents(by getting near the salary cap).

Celtics: Kevin Garnett(A leader that plays D, scores and rebounds) Pierce(shooter, slasher) Allen(shooter). Everyone else picks up the slack and does all the things their Big 3 cannot.

Knicks: A bunch of guys slapped on to a roster. No leaders. No winners. No complimentary players built around anyone.
I just hope that people will like me
TMS
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11/5/2008  6:11 AM
we won't be landing any KG type players in any trades w/the collection of players we have now... that's why we gotta first acquire those desirable young assets via the draft, & then u weigh all ur options later on when a bigtime talent becomes available... u don't keep making these half witted starphuch trades for highly flawed talent that have no shot of netting us any championships & expect different results... the definition of insanity bros... look it up... we gotta change our ways of doing things around here.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bippity10
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11/5/2008  6:26 AM
Posted by TMS:

we won't be landing any KG type players in any trades w/the collection of players we have now... that's why we gotta first acquire those desirable young assets via the draft, & then u weigh all ur options later on when a bigtime talent becomes available... u don't keep making these half witted starphuch trades for highly flawed talent that have no shot of netting us any championships & expect different results... the definition of insanity bros... look it up... we gotta change our ways of doing things around here.

That's the point I was trying to make, so obviously it wasn't made very well. Eventually you need a Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Michael, Hakeem, Kobe on your team if you want to win a title. OR you have to have many very good players that are willing to buy into a system and accept their roles(Detroit). You can do that through trade(Celtics) Draft(Spurs) or Free Agency(lakers). But the teams that pull this off, don't do it by Starphuching. They do it by putting themselves in position to "get lucky". By being over the cap we are not a player in free agency. By overpaying for guys that never win we cannot make trades. And by trading away draft picks or being good enough to be mediocre(which we have been for all but 2 of the past 7 seasons) you cannot get high picks. We haven't put ourselves in position to take advantage of any of these options.

What fans don't understand is how far we've fallen. To put ourselves in position to take advantage of all three of these areas it's going to take a while.
I just hope that people will like me
jazz74
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11/5/2008  6:39 AM
i agree. we are not rebuilding until we trade randolph and marbury ( or when marbury is off the team next year) then rebuilding has officially begin. if gallinari starts paying dividends and lee becomes half as good as we make him out to be, we have our assets right there.
franco12
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11/5/2008  7:48 AM
Posted by jazz74:

i agree. we are not rebuilding until we trade randolph and marbury ( or when marbury is off the team next year) then rebuilding has officially begin. if gallinari starts paying dividends and lee becomes half as good as we make him out to be, we have our assets right there.

Really, trading Zach signals rebuilding? Trading Zach so we can possibly line up for the 2010 Free agency Lotto is not rebuilding. Its simply more starphuching.

Trading Crawford, our one viable asset with a halfway decent contract, will signal rebuilding.
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