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Does Mike D'Antoni Know Something We Don't About Coaching?
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misterearl
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10/21/2008  9:47 AM
Episode Three

Larry Brown tried the tactic of tearing the entire team down only to inspire a mutiny. Isiah Thomas ignored the unanimous team vote against Marbury only to lose the entire locker room before Thanksgiving. D'Antoni must have received an earful during the individual interviews and has, so far, managed a transition within a transition.

"I come in and do what I'm told," Marbury said. "It's starting to be a good adjustment."

What miracle is this - where Starbury accepts a supporting role?

Editors disclaimer: This is NOT an endorsement for "he who wears the tat on the dome".

This is an observation of subtle change which affects everything fron Zach Randolph's hitting an open man to Chris Duhon being a skootch away from a triple-double. ("Run Nate Run!") To swapping out the minutes of Eddy Curry and Malik Rose for David Lee and Jared Jeffries.

If early returns on team chemistry (not simply the W-L column) can be measured in total assists (26 last night) and the trust that manifests itself in distribution and positive vibes - D'Antoni is not a Head Coach...

... he is a magician.
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djsunyc
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10/21/2008  9:57 AM
i think part of it has to do with timing and karma.

would any coach be able to step into this situation today and deal with the same personalities from 2005?

marbury was *the man* in his own mind a few years ago, and he had the *juice card*.

but being publicly humiliated over the past few years with the trials and getting into a spat with his supposed advisor and confidant changes things. his main ally in power is gone. he seems to have become more religious in that time and of course, most importantly, he is playing for his next payday.

these were all non-existant factors 2 years ago, and even last season.

alot of the other players have been here for a few years also. they have grown older, more mature, and have been exposed to public ridicule by media and fans.

i'm of the belief that any change in regime was going to be a positive influence on the team. d'antoni happened to be the guy that was chosen. if it was mark jackson, i'm thinking that the response would be similar.

if isiah was fired two years ago, d'antoni would not be here, nor would walsh. sometimes things happen for a reason...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 10-21-2008 09:58 AM]
martin
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10/21/2008  10:03 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

i think part of it has to do with timing and karma.

would any coach be able to step into this situation today and deal with the same personalities from 2005?

marbury was *the man* in his own mind a few years ago, and he had the *juice card*.

but being publicly humiliated over the past few years with the trials and getting into a spat with his supposed advisor and confidant changes things. his main ally in power is gone. he seems to have become more religious in that time and of course, most importantly, he is playing for his next payday.

these were all non-existant factors 2 years ago, and even last season.

alot of the other players have been here for a few years also. they have grown older, more mature, and have been exposed to public ridicule by media and fans.

i'm of the belief that any change in regime was going to be a positive influence on the team. d'antoni happened to be the guy that was chosen. if it was mark jackson, i'm thinking that the response would be similar.

if isiah was fired two years ago, d'antoni would not be here, nor would walsh. sometimes things happen for a reason...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 10-21-2008 09:58 AM]

completely agreed. I would add that the trade for Curry for 2 draft picks forced Isiah the GM to put his coach in the position to force feed Curry. And it's now all pretty clear that Curry is a fat lard who has very little basketball intelligence and has no real interest in playing ball at a high level.
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misterearl
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10/21/2008  10:11 AM
Re-Elect The Mayor

"i'm of the belief that any change in regime was going to be a positive influence on the team. d'antoni happened to be the guy that was chosen. if it was mark jackson, i'm thinking that the response would be similar."

djsu - excellent observation on timing. As a supporter of my Queens homeboy, Mark Jackson, I concur that the results could have been similar in the locker room. But how much would we, the players (and the media) be critiquing every move made by "rookie" head coach Mark Jackson?

Hold up, did I mention that Wilson Chandler rocks?



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Nalod
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10/21/2008  10:20 AM

Mike got big cred but is much likable than Larry was. ALso Isiah is gone and he really messed/fed marbury's head.

And its a contract year.

Marbury will help himself more coming in shape and letting his play speak louder than his words.
nixluva
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10/21/2008  10:55 AM
I'm convinced that it's more about the leadership skills of MDA than timing. Few believed that these players had it in them to be committed team players. Few had any faith that Zach could adapt to a team player and flourish. It was widely held that no coach was going to be able to do much with this group cuz they lacked the capacity or willingness to change. Thus we read a lot of posts that we needed to clean house. Few had any faith that any coach would make a diff even M Jackson.

This is mostly about MDA!!! Steph didn't come in with a good attitude. He was his usual belligerent self. MDA changed that and he won the team over for the most part, with his exellent people skills and coaching ability. I don't know how many coaches could've gotten these results. He's a winner for a reason. Like a Phil Jackson he knows how to handle personalities and get players to buy in. Not every one has those skills and that's why this team looks so different.

LB had disdain for the players and they felt that on some level. He could've succeeded if he really wanted to coach that team. Isiah had already lost his hammer with how he caved in to Steph, so he didn't have any credibility with his players. Deep inside they knew he was all bark and no bite.
Markji
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10/21/2008  10:58 AM
The coach makes a huge difference!
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
misterearl
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10/21/2008  11:13 AM
Leadership

Markji - I would also submit that the assistant coaches, who seemed detached and under house arrest Brown and Isiah, are afforded more of a voice during games.

If, and it is a huge IF, D'Antoni can squeeze one year of focused and selfless basketball out of Stephon Marbury he should be a lock for The Nobel Peace Prize.



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nysportsfan11
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10/21/2008  11:20 AM
Steph will hang himself if you give him enough rope. He's not a leader, so don't make him one.

If you ignore Steph, he usually falls in line. He's been that way since he was a kid. If you make him important, he'll take that as a license to be "the man". If you address him as part of something, with no more or less value than you would anyone else, he calms the **** down. That's why he's always been better with better players and worse when he's the number 1 option. Cremins had the same mentality (even if it didn't extend to anything off the court where he basically let Steph do whatever the hell he wanted.)

In the pros, it worked for Flip and it worked for Lenny before Isiah interjected with stupidity. Isiah believed he was the one who could change him, Larry believed he was the one that could change him. D'Antoni's just doesn't give a damn and didn't when they were in Phoenix either. D'Antoni's personality dictates that he rolls with those who are willing to conform and leaves behind those that don't. Steph wants to play, so Steph will STFU.
Vmart
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10/21/2008  11:32 AM
Has the season started? I mean shouldn't we wait and see what happens in the season before we start giving out coach of the year awards. Lets see how things unfold before we make a decision on the players and the coaches. With this group of players I would exercise caution because they have been known to implode when things start going bad. They are just an excuse away from waving the white flag. Lets not forget the roots of the current players on the Knicks. One bad joke by MDA and some of the players will start crying in the corner of the locker room.

We must remember preseason is preseason. When the regular season starts thats when rotations get shorter thats when players get antsy about playing time and thats when the bombs start dropping. Lets just wait and see what unfolds.

Right now its tough to sign anyone praises. But it is clear that there are standout players on the Knicks this preseason namely Chandler, Lee, Zach and Nate. Duhon looks staeady and Marbry does look a lot more athletic than in the past but will it translate when the season starts. When the season goes deep and adversity rears its ugly head you know it will how will the players react how will the coach deal with it, that remains to be seen. What we are seeing is a honeymoon period between the coach and the players.
K22
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10/21/2008  11:35 AM
Posted by Vmart:

Has the season started? I mean shouldn't we wait and see what happens in the season before we start giving out coach of the year awards. Lets see how things unfold before we make a decision on the players and the coaches. With this group of players I would exercise caution because they have been known to implode when things start going bad. They are just an excuse away from waving the white flag. Lets not forget the roots of the current players on the Knicks. One bad joke by MDA and some of the players will start crying in the corner of the locker room.

We must remember preseason is preseason. When the regular season starts thats when rotations get shorter thats when players get antsy about playing time and thats when the bombs start dropping. Lets just wait and see what unfolds.

Right now its tough to sign anyone praises. But it is clear that there are standout players on the Knicks this preseason namely Chandler, Lee, Zach and Nate. Duhon looks staeady and Marbry does look a lot more athletic than in the past but will it translate when the season starts. When the season goes deep and adversity rears its ugly head you know it will how will the players react how will the coach deal with it, that remains to be seen. What we are seeing is a honeymoon period between the coach and the players.

+1. I'm in this boat right now too.
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misterearl
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10/21/2008  11:42 AM
D'Antoni knows that winning requires strong fourth quarters. Last night, the Knicks faded early in the fourth quarter when their frantic pace and conditioning should be an advantage.

The 4th quarter finishers (pending good health) during the regular season will be key:

Duhon, Collins, Chandler, Lee and Jeffries
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djsunyc
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10/21/2008  11:45 AM
Posted by K22:
Posted by Vmart:

Has the season started? I mean shouldn't we wait and see what happens in the season before we start giving out coach of the year awards. Lets see how things unfold before we make a decision on the players and the coaches. With this group of players I would exercise caution because they have been known to implode when things start going bad. They are just an excuse away from waving the white flag. Lets not forget the roots of the current players on the Knicks. One bad joke by MDA and some of the players will start crying in the corner of the locker room.

We must remember preseason is preseason. When the regular season starts thats when rotations get shorter thats when players get antsy about playing time and thats when the bombs start dropping. Lets just wait and see what unfolds.

Right now its tough to sign anyone praises. But it is clear that there are standout players on the Knicks this preseason namely Chandler, Lee, Zach and Nate. Duhon looks staeady and Marbry does look a lot more athletic than in the past but will it translate when the season starts. When the season goes deep and adversity rears its ugly head you know it will how will the players react how will the coach deal with it, that remains to be seen. What we are seeing is a honeymoon period between the coach and the players.

+1. I'm in this boat right now too.

i'm sure many fans have waited a long time for the season to start so now they finally got some bball to watch. so it's easy to see why some are so excited about the team or are trying to analyze everything, even tho it is preseason. it's true that in terms of wins/losses, none of this matters, but at an emotional level, i think it does matter.

what makes this unique is that knicks fans haven't seen a similar style of play since 1987 with pitino. and even then, the team had patrick so it wasn't as wide open w/ ball movement. so this is a brand new style that new yorkers are not used to. i think there's this unspoken anticipation to see how it plays out. i think their play early on has only been encouraging regardless of competition.

yes, moves have to be made. but i think when it comes to the knicks, they need to crawl before they can walk. and at the very least, the team looks like they will be fun to watch. expectations have dropped but i think it's just a natural cycle. i think fans should not be thinking championship or long term at this point. i think it should be taken at a game to game, season to season basis. almost like turning a page in a long book.
djsunyc
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10/21/2008  11:46 AM
Posted by misterearl:

D'Antoni knows that winning requires strong fourth quarters. Last night, the Knicks faded early in the fourth quarter when their frantic pace and conditioning should be an advantage.

The 4th quarter finishers (pending good health) during the regular season will be key:

Duhon, Collins, Chandler, Lee and Jeffries

i think this style of play will benefit the knicks in november/december as teams are still trying to get their legs and learn their defense. i also think it will benefit in late march/april as teams go into tank mode or cruise control. the telling months will be from mid december to march.
PresIke
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10/21/2008  12:30 PM
earl, this is exactly what I've been saying...

Again, D'Antoni showing us why those of us have supported his approach to coaching.

Most thought that Steph would have no shot at redemption at this point, and while circumstance is a contributing factor, I hesitate to call it as significant as can be attributed to Mike D's skills as a leader.

I suspect few coaches in this league could come into this kind of situation and actually feel positive heading towards the end of pre-season. This is with, possibly, the top scorers in the last 3 years coming off the bench following very few roster changes.

That sure sounds like magic...



[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:31 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:32 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
nyk4ever
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10/21/2008  12:35 PM
Posted by nysportsfan11:

Steph will hang himself if you give him enough rope. He's not a leader, so don't make him one.

If you ignore Steph, he usually falls in line. He's been that way since he was a kid. If you make him important, he'll take that as a license to be "the man". If you address him as part of something, with no more or less value than you would anyone else, he calms the **** down. That's why he's always been better with better players and worse when he's the number 1 option. Cremins had the same mentality (even if it didn't extend to anything off the court where he basically let Steph do whatever the hell he wanted.)

In the pros, it worked for Flip and it worked for Lenny before Isiah interjected with stupidity. Isiah believed he was the one who could change him, Larry believed he was the one that could change him. D'Antoni's just doesn't give a damn and didn't when they were in Phoenix either. D'Antoni's personality dictates that he rolls with those who are willing to conform and leaves behind those that don't. Steph wants to play, so Steph will STFU.

Always dropping some interesting knowledge on us..
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nyk4ever
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10/21/2008  12:37 PM
Posted by PresIke:

earl, this is exactly what I've been saying...

Again, D'Antoni showing us why those of us have supported his approach to coaching.

Most thought that Steph would have no shot at redemption at this point, and while circumstance is a contributing factor, I hesitate to call it as significant as can be attributed to Mike D's skills as a leader.

I suspect few coaches in this league could come into this kind of situation and actually feel positive heading towards the end of pre-season. This is with, possibly, the top scorers in the last 3 years coming off the bench following very few roster changes.

That sure sounds like magic...



[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:31 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:32 PM]

MikeD is doing an awesome job so far. Who would have thought you would see a combo of Marbury, Lee, Malik Rose and Jerome James laughing it up on the bench. Zach Randolph is taking his role great and it seems like his teammates are all enjoying playing with him. Unbelieveable.

Keep it up MikeD.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
PresIke
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10/21/2008  1:15 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by PresIke:

earl, this is exactly what I've been saying...

Again, D'Antoni showing us why those of us have supported his approach to coaching.

Most thought that Steph would have no shot at redemption at this point, and while circumstance is a contributing factor, I hesitate to call it as significant as can be attributed to Mike D's skills as a leader.

I suspect few coaches in this league could come into this kind of situation and actually feel positive heading towards the end of pre-season. This is with, possibly, the top scorers in the last 3 years coming off the bench following very few roster changes.

That sure sounds like magic...



[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:31 PM]

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 12:32 PM]

MikeD is doing an awesome job so far. Who would have thought you would see a combo of Marbury, Lee, Malik Rose and Jerome James laughing it up on the bench. Zach Randolph is taking his role great and it seems like his teammates are all enjoying playing with him. Unbelieveable.

Keep it up MikeD.

yo man, I think his approach as leader is modern, sophisticated and shown to be successful amongst teachers, and other leaders/managers.

The old school Larry Brown approach to coaching may have worked in the past when sports were closer to the military, but culture has changed and, even still, there is psychological evidence that shows that D'Antoni's style is more effective with more people.

The tough love, "beat em down and then bring them up" approach may work with some folks, especially if they have a background that allows for this, but more and more are not, and can be turned off by it to the point where it can often not be redeemed under the same leadership.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Markji
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10/21/2008  1:19 PM
Posted by misterearl:

Leadership

Markji - I would also submit that the assistant coaches, who seemed detached and under house arrest Brown and Isiah, are afforded more of a voice during games.

If, and it is a huge IF, D'Antoni can squeeze one year of focused and selfless basketball out of Stephon Marbury he should be a lock for The Nobel Peace Prize.
I agree with the ass't coaches as well. It is a team operation and really is an entire make-over of Knicks management, with Walsh behind the scene and D'A setting the level of play on a daily basis.
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PresIke
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10/21/2008  1:24 PM
To add to what I am saying...

It is often a misnomer for folks to associate this approach with "softness."

There are managers/teachers/coaches who use some components of this, and become too "friendly" but the key is balancing this with accountability, yet not embarrassing your workers/students unnecessarily when doing so, and praising/rewarding those who do what is asked, or show good effort.

Notice how D'Antoni set a precedent using this with almost all players who we have had the most negative views of (Zach, Curry, Steph), while praising, or rewarding those who have a record of being more coachable (Duhon, Q, Craw), but also showing that there is a chance at proving yourself and earning minutes (his verbally stated form of how he will hold players accountable...or to quote earl..."you suck you sit"...what a concept...duh!) with good performance and doing what is asked.

Hence why Steph is now getting burn over Craw, and even praise from D'Antoni.

Chandler, praise and minutes over Q

Z-Bo earning praise.

Curry still on the bench.

If Avery Johnson or Mark Jackson were coach, in all fairness, I am not certain that things would have panned out this way.

[Edited by - PresIke on 10-21-2008 1:26 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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