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Alan Hahn blog about D'Antoni/Team USA Offense
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nyk4ever
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8/25/2008  11:07 PM
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/blog/2008/08/thinking_small.html

Thinking small (and about other things)

The formula you saw Coach K employ throughout the Olympics is mainly based on the philosophy Mike D'Antoni (and most of the rest of the world) believes is the best way to play this game. One thing the US always had on the court was an athletic big -- Dwight Howard or Chris Bosh, but rarely together, even against the huge Spainish front line -- and four versatile, interchangeable parts. Many times the "power forward" was someone such as Tayshaun Prince or Carmelo Anthony banging down low.

So from now on, let's not refer to it as the "power forward," which we coined for the Charles Oakley and Karl Malone types, and instead just call it the "4-spot."


Melo got some love for making an effort on defense (which is like rewarding your kid for washing his hands before dinner) in these Games, but you saw when he was overmatched he quickly got overheated. Melo has offensive skills (his outside shot started coming around later in the tournament) but if you had to rely on him as your four-spot defender all season he'd lose his mind by the all-star break.

Prince is an outstanding defender and very smart. He can get away with things in spots down low but better off using his length and quickness on the wing. Sure there were times LBJ jumped down to pitch in, but we know you don't wear out your superstar by asking him to bang.

Bottom line, Coach K preached defense and talked a lot about defense. But overall you could say that at times Team USA "sacrificed" on the defensive end for the good of the offense. Two bigs can make you too slow, which crushes Isiah Thomas' "power game" theory. So you take one away -- or at least exchange the "power" big for an "perimeter" big (see: Danilo Gallinari or, from D'Antoni's past, Shawn Marion) -- to be more effective on the offensive end and implore your players to play better "team" defense.

Obviously with the tremendous amount of talent Coach K had, this system (make no mistake, this is Mike D's philosophy...Coach K loved it so much he's incorporated it at Duke) worked so fluidly for the U.S.

How can it work for the Knicks? That is what D'Antoni had on his mind all day during his flight from Beijing to New York.

If you take away salaries and the need to improve the stock price for certain big contracts you'd like to move (Z-Bo, for instance), I think D'Antoni would prefer to start with Duhon-Crawford-Chandler-Gallinari and Curry as a five. And if you want to avoid starting a rookie, you go with the experienced Richardson at the 3 and slide Chandler to the 4 spot (he's strong enough to handle himself) similar to how he used Marion in Phoenix.


Here's how it has to work:

Eddy is your low-post guy but he has to be more of a decoy to open up the perimeter for your shooters (Jamal, Q-Rich and Chandler for the most part). You have to position Eddy much like the U.S. positioned Dwight Howard, where he did a lot of flashing into the paint..."showing" as they say...to make the zone defense close up (trust me, teams will zone the spit outta the Knicks until they prove they can knock down shots) which then loosens up the perimeter.

It's up to Curry to make this work with constant movement in the offensive "set". However, in transition you can allow Curry to be the last guy down, the "trailer" on the play. Let him get in the way of the guards as he works his way down the floor, set high screens and then roll and even spot up for the occassional elbow jumper (Curry has the ability to hit them in rhythm, I've seen it after practice).

Whenever Lazy Eddy shows his ugly face, to the bench he goes. Simple enough.


The critical part of the game that Team USA figured out quickly (they were only the best players in the world) was that the ball had to be in constant motion. Consider that at the worst of times for the US offense, players were caught either doing too much one-on-one or holding the ball too long. Michael Redd did this several times when he was out there throughout the tournament. And as the games got more critical, Redd saw less time. There were times the Americans desperately needed someone who could get hot from the outside in a hurry (Redd) but they couldn't afford his tendency to hold the ball and stall the offense.

Therefore, this is why I don't think Stephon Marbury would work, from a strictly basketball point of view. Like Redd, you would think Steph's game is perfectly suited for this system. But if you learn anything from the Olympics (and the Renaldo Balkman trade) it's not like the Paul Westhead fun-n-gun at all. It's not just about get-it-and-go and get more shots off than your opponent and hope that leads to more makes. Stephon does play quickly, but more often than not he plays by himself or plays "off" his teammates rather than with them.

Hey, he got pretty damn far playing that way, but I think it's been proven more often than not that you don't win that way in the NBA game that is more and more moving back to being a team game like it was when Clyde, Pearl, Dave, Dollar Bill and The Captain were playing.

There is a great deal of quick thinking that comes with this style. A lot of read-and-react and discipline. This is what D'Antoni has to see come training camp and in time he'll have to make decisions on players not just based on talent, but intelligence. So you shouldn't focus so much on whether or not Q can hit shots, but whether Duhon can find him in the corner at the right time on the drive-and-kick. It's not about Eddy Curry posting up, but can Eddy catch it in the post, pivot and make that weakside pass to an open man? Can Jamal Crawford find catch-and-shoot rhythm coming off curls instead of needing the And-1 hitch to set up his pull-up?

These guys all can chuck-and-duck. No question. But recall the Olympics again...whenever the U.S. got itself into trouble was when it pounded the ball on the floor instead of passing it. The most important thing to keep in mind when you play in this system is movement. Catch it and do something...NOW. If you watched Team USA, there was a lot of that going on.

I'm really looking forward to training camp the most because -- as far as I understand it -- we're going to be allowed to watch practice. I am curious to see the adjustments Mike plans to make to develop his philosophy with the players he has on the roster. I want to see who gets it, who doesn't and who might be surprisingly more effective than we previously have seen (Jared Jeffries comes to mind).

The system is quite basic with basic fundamentals. Where it gets crazy is when the infinite options that can come out of each basic set start to develop. There will be an evolution process throughout the season as guys start to grasp the system. That process should also weed out the guys who simply don't fit.


[Edited by - nyk4ever on 08-25-2008 11:08 PM]
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nyk4ever
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8/25/2008  11:13 PM
Thought this was a very interesting article.

On paper all of this makes alot of sense and I think it's going to be very interesting to watch and see what players understand how to play this offense and which ones don't. It's interesting to see that this whole offensive attack that Team USA was D'Antoni's offense, even Coach K is going to be using it this year at Duke. I'm sure D'Antoni also learned a thing or two about defense from Coach K as well which can only help us.

I happen to agree with Hahn 100% about starting Gallo at the 4, sure defensively he's going to take some hits, but D'Antoni has always preached team defense and I think Gallo will have the opportunity to showcase his perimeter and midrange game playing the 4, causing matchup disadvantages for the opposition. With all that said, I also like the idea of Chandler at 4 as well, this is all the beauty of MikeD's offense, so many players can play in different positions and can cause matchup disadvantages for the other team.

I also find it interesting that with all the talk about Zach being traded that there is no mention of him at all in this article. I really do think this whole thing thats cooking with Memphis might get done. I'll take Darko for Zach in a second.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 08-25-2008 11:14 PM]
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GKFv2
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8/25/2008  11:13 PM
Alan Hahn has to be looking forward to something or else his job just becomes miserable. At least he could write stories about Isiah and Marbury when the Knicks sucked. What is he gonna do this year? I feel for him.
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Paladin55
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8/25/2008  11:33 PM
Good article- We will see how intelligent the Knicks players are now.


Regarding the Memphis trade:

Recent stuff from a Memphis site- mentions the Knicks and also mentions Milicic's achilles problem, which I was unaware of.

http://post-gazette.screamingsports.com/awrapper.aspx?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.thememphisedge.com%2f2008%2f08%2f25%2fgriz-moves-on-the-horizon%2f

I think that Walsh will sit with D'Antoni about this trade when he is back from China.


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BRIGGS
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8/25/2008  11:52 PM
If I remember correctly--every single nba champion since I recall had 2 big conventional players on the frontline in the starting line up. Were trying to compare international basketball to NBA basketball.
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nyk4ever
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8/26/2008  12:09 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

If I remember correctly--every single nba champion since I recall had 2 big conventional players on the frontline in the starting line up. Were trying to compare international basketball to NBA basketball.

The styles of every single sport change over time. The NBA has slowly been moving towards the international game and with the influx of foreign players in recent years, it's only going to expedite.
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BRIGGS
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8/26/2008  12:18 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BRIGGS:

If I remember correctly--every single nba champion since I recall had 2 big conventional players on the frontline in the starting line up. Were trying to compare international basketball to NBA basketball.

The styles of every single sport change over time. The NBA has slowly been moving towards the international game and with the influx of foreign players in recent years, it's only going to expedite.


Sure I could see how it's changing as Boston whacked everyone around all year with its monsters. Nba is a different game. The NBA players *changed* to acclimate international ball. There are very few international NBA impact players. It has been and always will be a big mans game.

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EnySpree
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8/26/2008  12:40 AM
There's more than one way to play basketball. D'antoni's style could very well win a championship.....why not?

I think this Alan Hahn article was fantastic. He's the first writer I ever saw talk about the game in this way. He seems to understand the game at an x&o level. Interesting.

Well I totally agree with what he was saying. I too can't wait to see how D'antoni puts things together.
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djsunyc
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8/26/2008  1:01 AM
not sure why hahn is using team USA as a blueprint for an NBA team. USA's uniqueness against the world is it's strength, speed, and athleticism. in the NBA, all teams possess that. only way d'antoni's style will work is if he has the talent to execute it, both mentally and physically. same goes for almost every other coach. the only style that can win some games w/o the necessary talent is a team built on grind it out defense (like the pistons of 02 w/ stackhouse + cliff robinson and the sixers last season).

utilizing that US style of press defense w/ this current knicks squad would not work. only knicks capable of playing any defense right now are duhon and possibly chandler (and that's still a question mark b/c we haven't seen him play enough). lee, crawford, zach, eddy, and gallo trying to play pressure defense like hahn suggests won't get it done imho. this season, they'll either have to play it more halfcourt or will have to just run it up and down and try to outscore opponents. the personnel just isn't there yet.
djsunyc
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8/26/2008  1:07 AM
imho, if isiah (or any coach) was able to get zach + eddy to work together, that team would be better than any team with gallo starting at the 4...
Markji
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8/26/2008  1:42 AM
Gallo's first half in Summer league - he would always be trying to pass the ball, but no one was cutting or doing anything. So he looked lost. Now the rest of the team will learn to play that way also (passing, moving, teamwork). It is inspiring! because that was the Knicks' style when they won championships.

[Edited by - markji on 08-26-2008 07:32 AM]
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earthmansurfer
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8/26/2008  6:07 AM
Posted by Markji:

Gallo's first half in Summer league - he would always be trying to pass the ball, but no one was cutting or doing anything. So he looked lost. Now the rest of the team will learn to play that way also. It is inspiring! because that was the Knicks' style when they won championships.

I think that is a good observation. Also, what others have said about the NBA heading in a more "international" style of play. But having two "heady" players on the court in Danillo and Duhon (ok, more of a good distributor than a heady player) will really help with ball movement, which as the article stated, is what is required of this offense.

Briggs, even though it's true about having two bigs, it does appear we are going more international in style (NBA). As we all know Eddy and Zach won't work (who knows maybe we can at least find out with a "real" coach if that is true). At least change is exciting...

That article was interesting. If we can get rid of Zach, I hope we at least get back Lowry in addition to Milicic. I have a feeling he will just play out the last year of his contract which is good for us. At least it's an "asset" (God that is a scary word after the Isiah era) in that we can perhaps move him as part of a larger deal.

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8/26/2008  8:30 AM
The best this team has played in the last few years is when David Lee and Curry were on the floor at the same time. I even said it at the time I thought IT had something there and then traded for Randolph which threw everything off. Now can Eddy Curry with his injury and let down last year ever become what he was doing in late 2006? To be honest if we had a big who could intimidate with some shot blocking from the 4--I would never trade Lee. The reason why I feel we possibly should trade Lee is the fear that we will get lower value than we should for him as time goes by. I dont see how they are going to incorporate Lee Chandler Curry Randolph Gallinari --something has to give.
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8/26/2008  8:40 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

The best this team has played in the last few years is when David Lee and Curry were on the floor at the same time. I even said it at the time I thought IT had something there and then traded for Randolph which threw everything off. Now can Eddy Curry with his injury and let down last year ever become what he was doing in late 2006? To be honest if we had a big who could intimidate with some shot blocking from the 4--I would never trade Lee. The reason why I feel we possibly should trade Lee is the fear that we will get lower value than we should for him as time goes by. I dont see how they are going to incorporate Lee Chandler Curry Randolph Gallinari --something has to give.

I remember that and their play together as well. For a while they were really clicking. I think Lee's intelligence sort of compensated for Curry's lack of it. It is a bit of a problem as you state. Lee would be perfect next to a big who played some D. Perhaps we need to have some patience and see if we can raise Zach and Curry's trade value and then "find" (easier said than done) another big to play alongside David.

EMS
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8/26/2008  8:40 AM
Another example of international play in the US--Duke--they have somewhat tried to go smaller and quicker with more outside shooting the last several years and it just isn't working even with 5-6 McDonald's all-Americans they get every year. Look at Kansas--they had the two big men in at most times. NC had only 1--kind of like Phoenix and were stopped. Everyone has anointed NC the title next year but from what I have seen taking in a few scrimmages---I don't see how they are going to match the incredible size a Uconn has because they improved their perimeter skill players to even out the team. I think International and NBA are still very different games and I don't see the shift working all that well. Heck Bryan Colangelo basically gave up on it and went big as well and he kind of started it in the NBA.
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8/26/2008  8:54 AM
The Zach trade really screwed us, we would have Franchisebury coming off the books this year and Frye would could have been easy trade bait or would fit D'Antoni's system. Screw you, the name we shalt never utter again.

[Edited by - buddapaw on 08-26-2008 08:56 AM]
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8/26/2008  9:43 AM
Posted by Markji:

Gallo's first half in Summer league - he would always be trying to pass the ball, but no one was cutting or doing anything. So he looked lost. Now the rest of the team will learn to play that way also (passing, moving, teamwork). It is inspiring! because that was the Knicks' style when they won championships.

[Edited by - markji on 08-26-2008 07:32 AM]

As an older fan I would love to see this. The only problem is that every guy on the Knicks starting 5 back then on those teams, including the centers- Reed, Lucas, and even Gianelli, could hit jump shots beyond 15 ft, and they had guys coming off the bench who could do the same thing. You also need an intelligent team to play this way, and that is another question I have with the Knicks at this time.

Reed and Debusschere were defensive studs on the inside at that time, and got 10RPG each/game. Reed was also a shot-blocker. We don't have this kind of D inside with our guys now.


You are also dead-on with the Gallo comment. He did make a couple of nice passes, but it looked like our strategy in that game was to hang around the perimeter and wait for open 3s, and the movement by our players was terrible.
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8/26/2008  9:59 AM
We ain't winning a title with this roster.

Its about a march to respectability and raising the assets for further trades.

Its about installing a system that gets better results witht the assets we already have, and then fulfilling a blueprint towards success.

Installing Chandler and Gallo with Duhan is a fresh perspective. Using Nate and Craw who shoot without thinking works in D'antoni's system. Marbury was moved once by Phoenix as an asset who would fail under this process. He can come off the books now.

Z-Dumb and StallBury don't fit in. They could if they changed, but I don't know if they want to. They are financially successful and Isiah has filled them with wonderful thoughts otherwise.

Good article, and it makes looking at this team a bit more interesting.
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8/26/2008  10:08 AM
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by Markji:

Gallo's first half in Summer league - he would always be trying to pass the ball, but no one was cutting or doing anything. So he looked lost. Now the rest of the team will learn to play that way also (passing, moving, teamwork). It is inspiring! because that was the Knicks' style when they won championships.

As an older fan I would love to see this. The only problem is that every guy on the Knicks starting 5 back then on those teams, including the centers- Reed, Lucas, and even Gianelli, could hit jump shots beyond 15 ft, and they had guys coming off the bench who could do the same thing. You also need an intelligent team to play this way, and that is another question I have with the Knicks at this time.

Reed and Debusschere were defensive studs on the inside at that time, and got 10RPG each/game. Reed was also a shot-blocker. We don't have this kind of D inside with our guys now.

You are also dead-on with the Gallo comment. He did make a couple of nice passes, but it looked like our strategy in that game was to hang around the perimeter and wait for open 3s, and the movement by our players was terrible.
Yes, I agree with you on the shooting. Everyone could shoot well, except Frazier. For a guard in those times, he had a fair shot at best,but was great defensively and in leading the offense.

But another thing, originally, we had 2 "Big Men" in Reed and Walt Belamy (one of the premier centers and top all-time scorers of his time) and yet we couldn't win. It was only when we traded Bellamy for DeBusschere that we gelled as a team. Same thing in the 90's. We had Ewing and Cartwright. When we traded Cartwright for Oakley, we again became prominant. Both oakley and Dave D could shoot form outside, were tough inside, and played team ball. So 2 Bigs isn't critical. Having a PF and Center who play well together, teamwork, and play smart, and can shoot is critical. I think Gallo can fill that role.

One would think that Zach could fill the role of a Debuschere or Oakley. He rebounds and shoots as well as any PF. Maybe he's lacking the teamwork. Maybe D'A can fix his teamwork problem? (Just a thought; really a hope. A Big hope!).

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
Nalod
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8/26/2008  10:58 AM
DLee is made for this offense. His rebounding and outlet passing is taylor made.

Ewing would have not worked under D'antoni, he like to slow it down. Oakley was a poor shooter with a poor handle.

Debussure had a great outside shot and could run.

After reading this article I could see roles for Jeffries and Q but not ZDumb.

I think Isolation players like Marbury and ZDumb will find it hard. Special Nate will have to adapt and will have more turnovers but should be ok. Craw should do very well

Eddy did very well when he recieved the ball in motion. He was unstoppable. He must rebound and move the ball around to stay on the floor. If DLee shot is good he too will excell.
Alan Hahn blog about D'Antoni/Team USA Offense

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