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Rational Basis: Zack/Clips? [open minds only]
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sebstar
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7/16/2008  3:57 PM
I've been wrestling with this Zach Randolph/Clippers rumors for a minute and here are my conclusions:

Pragmatism:

Alright so we trade Zach for nothing, that essentially assures us 15-20 wins. With a new regime in place, perhaps there was hesitance in stripping the roster bare in order to position us favorably in the world of unknown variables, and unstable possibilities (lottery, '10 free agent pool) Could doom what they're trying to accomplish from the start. Why not just take a deep breath and re-evaluate things after one year. Why does everything have to be done yesterday? Typical NY patience...

Confidence in D'Antoni:

Well, we hired this cat, ostensibly, to get the most out of our roster. There's no bigger challenge then re-defining talented disappointments in Crawford and Randolph. Why give up on such an immense talent? He can still play at a very high level and hopefully D'Antoni can devise schemes tailor-made to enhance Zach's abilities.

The Youth Movement:

If Zach goes, where does that leave Chandler and Gallo? I mean, who will be the offensive weapons on the team? Crawford and... I think somebody said that trading Zach would open up more room for Gallo. They are not thinking about putting an ounce more pressure on Gallo then is already necessary. And I dont the we can assume so much responsibility on a second year player like Chandler who is still getting his feet wet, especially in the NY fishbowl. Unnecessary pressure.

Trade Value

For all the ledge jumpers, just keep in mind that if a trade avenue opened up for Zach damn near minutes into the NBA offseason, in Walsh's first year, its way too myopic to think that this will be the only opportunity. Especially if we can maximize Zach's potential. That to me is more of a possibility than landing Lebron at this point.

I would have done the deal myself, just to simply turn the page, but its easy for me to sit here behind a computer and demand that the Knicks worsen themselves now, for a day that might never arrive.


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djsunyc
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7/16/2008  3:59 PM
did you consider that zach's presence completely destroyed curry and any *progress* he made the year before. so by removing zach and returning curry to some type of form he had the year before means the knicks get more wins than the 23 from last season.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2008 4:00 PM]
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:04 PM
Is their co-existence impossible? Again, how about re-evaluating things, after a better system and personnel has been implemented, before we dump everyone.

Just trying to provide a counter-balance to the OMG-we-didnt-dump-Zach-now-all-our-hopes-and-dreams-as-fans-are-now-crushed crowd.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:05 PM
anything the knicks were trying to build in 06/07, the season after larry brown, where they possibly were on the verge of a playoff berth before lee + crawford went down for the season, was completely derailed by the acquistion of zach. this hypothetical clippers deal gave the knicks a chance to get a "do-over" and start where the 06/07 team left off. where that would go, i have no idea, but it wouldn't be backwards to 23 wins like last season.
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:09 PM
their co-existence is impossible b/c curry and zach are at places in their careers where they want the ball. curry is constant motivational question mark, so if he doesn't get the ball, he becomes aloof. zach doesn't become aloof, but when he does get the ball, the shot is going up, no questions asked - he has to get his #'s.

and neither has any sort of defense to fall back on even if the offense is suffering.

with that said, zach is still 10X the player eddy is so they should trade curry. but if the opportunity presented itself to remove zach, while helping the cap # in 2010 and leaving curry, who was an 18ppg player pre-zach, then it was an opportunity wasted. may not get another chance to get a deal that could satisfy such a huge need for walsh's 2010 plan. and it does open up time for lee + gallo.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2008 4:11 PM]
nyk4ever
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7/16/2008  4:10 PM
Seb quality well thought-out post as usual.

I agree with your stance on the trade, which is trade Zach for whatever we can get, just to turn the page. At the same time, I have no problem holding out and seeing if we can get more than a 2nd rounder because that trade for a 2nd rounder or cap-fodder is going to be there until Zach's contract officially becomes an expiring deal.

I've seen so many GM's make trades for players with as bad or worse baggage than ZBo and have gotten more than a 2nd rounder in return (Artest, SJax, etc etc) so I have no problem waiting it out.

This team isn't going anywhere before 2010 anyway so theres plenty of time to unload ZBo. Why not atleast take the opporuntity and chance to see if Zach can come out and play like a team player for half a year?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:14 PM
blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.
nyk4ever
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7/16/2008  4:19 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.

I agree with you DJ. It's not like the Knicks hired some rookie GM, they hired a guy who with the Pacers knew exactly what Zach's value was around the league. Do you think he just forgot that when he joined the Knicks?
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:24 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.

Yeah, but see there are differences. First of all the Blazers have been able to stockpile talent via the draft for years. Their roster is much more attractive. They hit the lottery in '07 literally and figuratively in Greg Oden, so it gave them much more latitude. Plus they play in a small market where the expectations are tempered.

The Blazers had the ability to, in essence, dump Zach. Can Zach turn from an implied liability to an asset with us? I guess we will find out.


[Edited by - sebstar on 07-16-2008 4:25 PM]
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:27 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by djsunyc:

blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.

Yeah, but see there are differences. First of all the Blazers have been able to stockpile talent via the draft for years. Their roster is much more attractive. They hit the lottery in '07 literally and figuratively in Greg Oden, so it gave them much more latitude. Plus they play in a small market where the expectations are tempered.

The Blazers had much more latitude to, in essence, dump Zach. Can Zach turn from an implied liability to an asset with us? I guess we will find out.

the knicks are coming off of 23 wins. you think the media/fans won't give them "latitude" by dumping zach? i think it would be one of the more lauded moves around these parts in the past few years. what expecatations do you think are on this team? i bet nobody picks them to win 35 games this year.
franco12
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7/16/2008  4:30 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Seb quality well thought-out post as usual.

I agree with your stance on the trade, which is trade Zach for whatever we can get, just to turn the page. At the same time, I have no problem holding out and seeing if we can get more than a 2nd rounder because that trade for a 2nd rounder or cap-fodder is going to be there until Zach's contract officially becomes an expiring deal.

I've seen so many GM's make trades for players with as bad or worse baggage than ZBo and have gotten more than a 2nd rounder in return (Artest, SJax, etc etc) so I have no problem waiting it out.

This team isn't going anywhere before 2010 anyway so theres plenty of time to unload ZBo. Why not atleast take the opporuntity and chance to see if Zach can come out and play like a team player for half a year?

Couple things- guys like Artest & Jax weren't tied into a massive contract like Zach is.

And while this team isn't going anywhere between now & 2010 (and beyond), how about we develop our young guys like Lee and see about laying the foundation of a team that a player like Lebron might want to play for.

Do you think the Sixers land Brand if they didn't make the play offs and look as competitive as they did? I am sure Brand feels much better going there knowing they should be competitive. The money don't hurt, that is for sure.

Zach & Curry= Failed Experiment. Time to cut the losses.

I agree that if we could move Curry or JJ2 instead, Zach is the better player.
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:30 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:



I've seen so many GM's make trades for players with as bad or worse baggage than ZBo and have gotten more than a 2nd rounder in return (Artest, SJax, etc etc) so I have no problem waiting it out.


Thanks. I see we're looking along things similarly. I know Curry/Zbo is somewhat of a redundancy, but I am intrigued by the idea of them getting a clean slate under an improved system.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:35 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by djsunyc:

blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.

Yeah, but see there are differences. First of all the Blazers have been able to stockpile talent via the draft for years. Their roster is much more attractive. They hit the lottery in '07 literally and figuratively in Greg Oden, so it gave them much more latitude. Plus they play in a small market where the expectations are tempered.

The Blazers had much more latitude to, in essence, dump Zach. Can Zach turn from an implied liability to an asset with us? I guess we will find out.

the knicks are coming off of 23 wins. you think the media/fans won't give them "latitude" by dumping zach? i think it would be one of the more lauded moves around these parts in the past few years. what expecatations do you think are on this team? i bet nobody picks them to win 35 games this year.

Not necessarily that the Knicks are expected to win 45 games next year. But if we, win 18 games with an unattractive hard-to-watch team, get the 3rd or 4th pick, and watch Zach flourish on another team, it could create another untenable situation. Like what are these guys doing and where are we going and how long is it going to take? Another 10 years?

Are the Knicks really sitting around and basically waiting for Lebron to save the day? What about plan B?

My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:37 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by nyk4ever:



I've seen so many GM's make trades for players with as bad or worse baggage than ZBo and have gotten more than a 2nd rounder in return (Artest, SJax, etc etc) so I have no problem waiting it out.

but I am intrigued by the idea of them getting a clean slate under an improved system.

this would mean walsh is putting the entire onus on d'antoni to make it work. that's eerily similar to isiah's hiring of lb.
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:39 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by djsunyc:

blazers were as low as a franchise could get a few years ago. they go an hire a guy from the spurs. he then systematically changes the culture of the team and replaces the pieces. he couldn't wait to trade zach. got a nice little back up center/pf in frye but also had to take back francis. looking at what pritchard has done with that organization, and seeing how moving zach was high on his "to do" list, i will have to think that walsh would share the same philosphy as pritchard. that's why i don't see this clippers thing as a legitimate offer b/c i think walsh jumps at the chance to dump him.

Yeah, but see there are differences. First of all the Blazers have been able to stockpile talent via the draft for years. Their roster is much more attractive. They hit the lottery in '07 literally and figuratively in Greg Oden, so it gave them much more latitude. Plus they play in a small market where the expectations are tempered.

The Blazers had much more latitude to, in essence, dump Zach. Can Zach turn from an implied liability to an asset with us? I guess we will find out.

the knicks are coming off of 23 wins. you think the media/fans won't give them "latitude" by dumping zach? i think it would be one of the more lauded moves around these parts in the past few years. what expecatations do you think are on this team? i bet nobody picks them to win 35 games this year.

Not necessarily that the Knicks are expected to win 45 games next year. But if we, win 18 games with an unattractive hard-to-watch team, get the 3rd or 4th pick, and watch Zach flourish on another team, it could create another untenable situation. Like what are these guys doing and where are we going and how long is it going to take? Another 10 years?

Are the Knicks really sitting around and basically waiting for Lebron to save the day? What about plan B?

plan B should be the other free agents available that summer. unless gallinari is a superduper stud or the 2009 draft pick is wilt chamberlain redux, going after a title under any circumstances would be foolish thinking. so signing 2 or 3 other players that summer wouldn't be a bad thing either.

imho, my plan A is to go the opposite route and lowball teams looking for capspace that summer and get talent that way. use the isiah method of expirings, just target different players.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2008 4:40 PM]
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:40 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by nyk4ever:



I've seen so many GM's make trades for players with as bad or worse baggage than ZBo and have gotten more than a 2nd rounder in return (Artest, SJax, etc etc) so I have no problem waiting it out.

but I am intrigued by the idea of them getting a clean slate under an improved system.

this would mean walsh is putting the entire onus on d'antoni to make it work. that's eerily similar to isiah's hiring of lb.

Yeah, but thats assuming that D'Antoni is an innocent bystander in all of this. If this story is to have validity, I am sure that D'Antoni is providing his input. Truth be told, I think he can't wait to get a hold of Zach, that is unless the right deal comes in --- which is doubtful.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
EnySpree
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7/16/2008  4:40 PM
DJ is posting entirely too much in this thread.
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djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:43 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Yeah, but thats assuming that D'Antoni is an innocent bystander in all of this. If this story is to have validity, I am sure that D'Antoni is providing his input. Truth be told, I think he can't wait to get a hold of Zach, that is unless the right deal comes in --- which is doubtful.

from what i'm hearing, the organization's #1 priority is to move zach which would allow them to keep david. the intentions of moving david is predicated on the fact that zach is untradeable.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-16-2008 4:43 PM]
djsunyc
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7/16/2008  4:44 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

DJ is posting entirely too much in this thread.

you have the worst sig in forums history.
sebstar
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7/16/2008  4:46 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by EnySpree:

DJ is posting entirely too much in this thread.

you have the worst sig in forums history.

lol. yeah, duke honestly. You've GOTS to do better, fam.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
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