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D'Antoni or Jackson?
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BigSm00th
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If the Knicks can make a "staggering offer" to get Mike D'Antoni, should they do this? Their other option is to take the supposed frontrunner, native New York City point guard Mark Jackson, who has no head coaching experience. D'Antoni is a big contract and a big name, some could argue that's why the Knicks are in the position they are in. He has, however, had tremendous success and arguably has changed the way the game is played in the NBA with his '7 seconds or less' offense. He has coached in the incredibly tough Western Conference the last 4 years and lost to some very good teams. Jackson has never coached, but he could learn on the job for 2 years while Donnie Walsh gets the team under the cap for the 2010, an offseason where LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh are all free-agents. The Knicks have their lottery pick this year and next year before owing it to Utah in 2010 (zeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeke), so it is imperative to (a) make a good pick this year and (b) be as bad as possible next year if rebuilding the team to a championship contender is the true goal of the Donnie Walsh presidency. Who do you want? D'Antoni? Jackson?
Mike D'Antoni
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GKFv2
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5/8/2008  3:03 PM
Mark Jackson because D'Antoni is a terrible choice now and forever.
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Cosmic
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5/8/2008  6:23 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Mark Jackson because D'Antoni is a terrible choice now and forever.

Mark Jackson because Mark Jackson could come at 2 years with a 3rd year option (I dont care about the money itself, thats dolans).

DAntoni comes at 5 years.


Mark Jackson means we'd be committed to rebuilding and developing the kids.

DAntoni means this stupid franchise STILL BELIEVES that Crawful, McCurry, ZachAss, Ared Effries, QBrick, TruckBury is a core that you just need to make a trade or two to, add the right coach, silence the booing fans, and GOGOGOGOGOGOBAM we'll win 90% of our games!!!!


So, yeah, Mark Jackson please - just because of what hiring him would signify! I'm not enamored with mark nor do I consider him any kind of savior but again I would welcome him and a rebuilding plan over this DAntoni + "just one more trade and THEN we'll be awesome!" garbage that Isiah has tricked us, and obviously still have some tricked into believing, all this time..........and scarily there are hints that Walsh might believe it as well.

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Uptown
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5/8/2008  6:24 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by GKFv2:

Mark Jackson because D'Antoni is a terrible choice now and forever.

Mark Jackson because Mark Jackson could come at 2 years with a 3rd year option (I dont care about the money itself, thats dolans).

DAntoni comes at 5 years.


Mark Jackson means we'd be committed to rebuilding and developing the kids.

DAntoni means this stupid franchise STILL BELIEVES that Crawful, McCurry, ZachAss, Ared Effries, QBrick, TruckBury is a core that you just need to make a trade or two to, add the right coach, silence the booing fans, and GOGOGOGOGOGOBAM we'll win 90% of our games!!!!

So, yeah, Mark Jackson please - just because of what hiring him would signify! I'm not enamored with mark nor do I consider him any kind of savior but again I would welcome him and a rebuilding plan over this DAntoni + "just one more trade and THEN we'll be awesome!" garbage that Isiah has tricked us, and obviously still have some tricked into believing, all this time..........and scarily there are hints that Walsh might believe it as well.

That makes absolutely no sense what so ever........Marbury, Zach and Curry do everything that D'Antoni does not want to see his players do. D'Antonis presense only signifies that these players will definitely be on the way out. Just another reason why I would welcome D'Antoni with open arms.

[Edited by - uptown on 05-08-2008 6:27 PM]
Cosmic
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5/8/2008  6:29 PM
Also with DAntoni at 5 years you care about the money because it would prevent a buy out if it came to that after 2 seasons (which with this team is definitely always a possibility).

Also with Mark and the chance you could (not saying this stupid franchise wouldnt sign him to a 9 year contract....but...well, yeah) maintain flexibility if you gave him a 2 year guaranteed, 3rd year team option type deal. Of which I see no reason to give ANY coach any more than that given the disaster this franchise is.

Given that I just don't want to find 2010 cap flexibility I'd want to find 2010 coaching and GM flexibility! No reason to keep locking ourselves into such situations that we cant get out of! You know, like extending Isiah....about six weeks before it became apparent he should be FIRED. Oops.


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Cosmic
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5/8/2008  6:33 PM
Posted by Uptown:

[quote]Posted by Cosmic:



That makes absolutely no sense what so ever........Marbury, Zach and Curry do everything that D'Antoni does not want to see his players do. D'Antonis presense only signifies that these players will definitely be on the way out. Just another reason why I would welcome D'Antoni with open arms.

[Edited by - uptown on 05-08-2008 6:27 PM]

Sure it does because hiring a high profile coach means you're trying to win now. When you've got four core players locked into 2011 deals and a fifth with a mega-expiring you KNOW the team will try to use that expiring to add to the present core.

You can't just wipe that entire core out while swapping it for the perfect players just like that.

Do you believe we could turn that aforementioned core into Nash, Amare, Marion - and the proper role players - all within lets say a 2 year period - and then have 3 years of a DAntoni suns-style led team to watch? For, that's what it would take to justify hiring a guy like DAntoni to a 5 year deal.


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Vmart
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5/8/2008  6:55 PM
You want D'Antoni because he brings direction with his system where are Jackson basically bring zero to the table. You want to start with system in place and add piecies around it to make it work.

Hiring Jackson is like a $ billion company hiring a worker to run the operations without even looking at his resume. Companies don't even do that for MIT grads.

Besides Running and Gunning system is the best way to get production out of the current players that are on the roster. If anything D'Antoni will make them more attractive to other teams because their stats will be inflated.
Solace
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5/8/2008  7:21 PM
Why all the ire towards D'Antoni? It's because we think management will screw up with their expectations if we hire D'Antoni? It's very simple to me:

The advantages of hiring D'Antoni are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. D'Antoni would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.

The advantage of D'Antoni is if you give him 5 years, it's because you want him for 5 years. With Jackson, who knows. He may do great and you want him longer, but there's certainly the unknown that after a few years, you'll want him out anyway.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
EnySpree
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5/8/2008  7:24 PM
The Knicks are not anything right now. Donnie has been brought here to change that. It would make for a nice story if Mark was given a shot, but what kinda shot? One to the back of the head?

D'antoni has proven that he can win. He will not be brought in to turn this current roster into suns east. He would be brought in to implement a style of play. Donnie will work with him to get him what he wants.

If that's the case for Jax why isn't it the case for D'antoni?

Is Jax supposed to make this group win? Or is he jus supposed to babysitt till the Knicks get the savior draft pick and the savior free agent signing?

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GKFv2
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5/8/2008  7:27 PM
Nobody know what Mark Jackson is but we all know that Mike D'Antoni is - an offensive, players coach with short practices and not a guy who commands the locker room. Sound familiar?

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-08-2008 7:27 PM]
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Solace
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5/8/2008  7:38 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Nobody know what Mark Jackson is but we all know that Mike D'Antoni is - an offensive, players coach with short practices and not a guy who commands the locker room. Sound familiar?

I hear what you're saying. The only problem is I'm not convinced that it's accurate.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
islesfan
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5/8/2008  7:39 PM
Posted by Solace:


The advantages of hiring D'Antoni are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. D'Antoni would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.


The advantages of hiring Larry Brown are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. Larry Brown would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.

Sound familiar?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Solace
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5/8/2008  7:52 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Solace:


The advantages of hiring D'Antoni are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. D'Antoni would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.


The advantages of hiring Larry Brown are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. Larry Brown would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.

Sound familiar?

Yes, and that's the whole point. If management isn't behind D'Antoni, he will suffer a similar fate to Brown. I like D'Antoni as the choice if-and-only-if he gets management backing. If we bring in a guy who doesn't have management behind him again, we should just bring in a lemming. My hope is that the organization may have finally learned its lesson. The problem is, if we need a lemming, Mark Jackson isn't the right guy either. If we need a lemming, the choice should be Herb Williams.

Just want to add to that, that if management still hasn't learned its lesson, truthfully, the coaching decision won't matter long term, until the point they do, anyway.

[Edited by - Solace on May 08 2008 7:55 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
EnySpree
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5/8/2008  8:21 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Nobody know what Mark Jackson is but we all know that Mike D'Antoni is - an offensive, players coach with short practices and not a guy who commands the locker room. Sound familiar?

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-08-2008 7:27 PM]

Dude are you taking about Isiah thomas? D'antoni is not Isiah. Isiah didn't know what the **** he was doing on all fronts.

D'antoni with Donnie working with him instead of GM's working against him would be a better situation for him and the Knicks.
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Vmart
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5/8/2008  8:45 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Solace:


The advantages of hiring D'Antoni are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. D'Antoni would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.


The advantages of hiring Larry Brown are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. Larry Brown would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.

Sound familiar?

I think you are on a the right track but LB had to deal with the manipulation of Marbury and Isiah. D'Antoni isn't going to have that problem. I was very happy with LB when he signed as he would have brought credibility to the team but somewhere along the way he realized this team is full of crappy players and wanted out of the situation. I think D'Antoni is going to have full support of management as they know that they need players to fit his system. we al;ready know that some of these players don't fit his system and they are goners which is what we want there is no molding some of these players currently on the team with D'Antoni you are either in the system or you are out.
nyk4ever
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5/8/2008  9:46 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Solace:


The advantages of hiring D'Antoni are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. D'Antoni would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.


The advantages of hiring Larry Brown are bringing in a winner. Add a winning culture to a losing team. Larry Brown would have to have full management support, knowing that winning isn't expected for a few years, he will have major input in personnel moves and support from management. If the Knicks assume the same stance as always with the "win now" mantra, 100% agree that this could be a disaster. Hopefully Knicks management finally realizes that it will take more to fix this.

Sound familiar?

I'm sorry Isles but I think this is a completely different situation. For one, it's not like D'Antoni will be working with Isiah Thomas, he'll be working with Donnie Walsh. Yeah, I know you believe that Isiah Thomas still has a say in what happens with this team but do you really think that Donnie Walsh would have come here knowing he'd be undermined by Isiah Thomas? Yeah you can say he is making alot of money here, but the money that Herb Kohl would have been offering Walsh would have been very similar, so no, I don't think money is a issue. Also, do you really think that David Stern would tell Donnie Walsh to take this job if he knew he would be undermined by Isiah Thomas?

Say what you want, but I think that is just a conspiracy theory at it's worst.
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PresIke
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5/8/2008  9:56 PM
What I find interesting about this is how stratified and nuanced the debate seems now.

Already a relief from the "lover" "hater" polarization/overgeneralization that dominated under Isiah.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
EnySpree
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5/8/2008  10:05 PM
Posted by PresIke:

What I find interesting about this is how stratified and nuanced the debate seems now.

Already a relief from the "lover" "hater" polarization/overgeneralization that dominated under Isiah.

Dude I gotta crack open a dictionary just to read your posts! Show off!
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GKFv2
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5/8/2008  10:31 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by GKFv2:

Nobody know what Mark Jackson is but we all know that Mike D'Antoni is - an offensive, players coach with short practices and not a guy who commands the locker room. Sound familiar?

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-08-2008 7:27 PM]

Dude are you taking about Isiah thomas? D'antoni is not Isiah. Isiah didn't know what the **** he was doing on all fronts.

D'antoni with Donnie working with him instead of GM's working against him would be a better situation for him and the Knicks.

I'm talking about all the coaches we've had since Van Gundy left except for Brown. We don't need another players coach who cares nothing about defense. We just don't.
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Solace
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5/8/2008  10:46 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by GKFv2:

Nobody know what Mark Jackson is but we all know that Mike D'Antoni is - an offensive, players coach with short practices and not a guy who commands the locker room. Sound familiar?

[Edited by - gkfv2 on 05-08-2008 7:27 PM]

Dude are you taking about Isiah thomas? D'antoni is not Isiah. Isiah didn't know what the **** he was doing on all fronts.

D'antoni with Donnie working with him instead of GM's working against him would be a better situation for him and the Knicks.

I'm talking about all the coaches we've had since Van Gundy left except for Brown. We don't need another players coach who cares nothing about defense. We just don't.

Can you explain why you have this impression? The Suns have always been above average in defensive efficiency since D'Antoni has been there. One of the seasons, I believe they were in the top 3.

I don't understand the common belief that the Suns don't play defense. They play a high-paced offense, which statistically means that they will give up more points (if they didn't, they'd have the greatest defense in NBA history), but they're actually pretty good when it comes to how many points they give up per possession.

[Edited by - Solace on May 08 2008 10:47 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
CrushAlot
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5/8/2008  11:09 PM
If these are my choices it has to be Jackson. D'Antoni's style does not win championships. The Knicks had an identity with Riley and Van Gundy. The team was committed to being a team, playing defense and outworking their opponents. I think Jackson would try to bring that back. I also think he recognizes how poorly the Knicks were put together. I see D'Antoni being the next Don Nelson in NY without a good roster. In my opinion he will not last and he will not be successful. The Knicks need to have a new start and I think Jackson would be a good guy to begin that. If Jackson isn't the guy I would want Thibideau or Johnson. The Celtics defense against the Cavs has been awesome. Thibideau should have been the Knicks guy when Chaney was hired.
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