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OT: Lets talk about the economy
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Cash
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4/5/2008  4:30 AM
I hope this thread doesn't get moved as i don't start a lot of topics, but I am really scared about the economy and I have been for awhile now. I don't think we are as competitive as a country as we used to be. What do you guys think?
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EnySpree
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4/5/2008  11:47 AM
Posted by Cash:

I hope this thread doesn't get moved as i don't start a lot of topics, but I am really scared about the economy and I have been for awhile now. I don't think we are as competitive as a country as we used to be. What do you guys think?

As long as people are working they don't care.......to the people not working and beating the system? They don't care either cuz they are hustlers for life. Guys in between that want to work aren't poor enough to beat the system or fortunate enough to have gotten an education, the right trade, a city job, or hook up.....are screwed. Then they wanna make drug dealing and prostitution illegal? Lmao.

God bless america.
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SupremeCommander
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4/5/2008  12:17 PM
I wish I could say you were wrong Cash... I really do.

Bottom line is we are one gluttonous country that provides little-to-nothing to the global economy. The United States (I believe) is ranked 15th in the world in education. What do we produce? Nothing. We import everything, which is a major reason why the dollar is weak compared to the Euro, Pound, etc. To top it off, poor, dumb Americans are taught from a very young age to buy stuff they don't need. This all is paid for by credit, and these poor, dumb Americans are paying 20 percent on their credit and only make minimum payments... not understanding the structure of their debt agreement.

That's a long way of saying I don't expect things to get better soon.
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SupremeCommander
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4/5/2008  12:33 PM
And I forgot, the government protects the rights of business. So, when all these people are losing their homes due to the credit crisis, how does the government help? They provided loans to the investment banks to bail those guys out. $250 million was given to JPMorgan, for example, to alleviate the liquidity crisis affecting the credit markets. This money was used to purchase Bear Stearns, and essentially saving a company that should be out of business. JPMorgan is happy to help, because they purchased Bear Stearns on a fraction of its true worth--WITH GOVERNMENT MONEY!!!

I'm pretty pissed off about the handling of this situation. A lot of folks either have lost their homes or are going to lose their homes... the Federal Government couldn't have taken that money and loaned it to those that got fast-talked into signing unfair mortgages?

Bill Gross is the managing director at PIMCO, where he oversees some $746 billion in assets. I think his line was pretty telling:

"In my opinion, the private credit markets have forfeited their privileged right to operate relatively autonomously because of incompetence, excessive greed, and in minor instances, fraudulent activities."

I understand this guy understands the situation significantly better than I, however, I must admit I don't think "minor instances" begins to due justice to the "fraudulent activities."
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
Panos
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4/5/2008  12:34 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

I wish I could say you were wrong Cash... I really do.

Bottom line is we are one gluttonous country that provides little-to-nothing to the global economy. The United States (I believe) is ranked 15th in the world in education. What do we produce? Nothing. We import everything, which is a major reason why the dollar is weak compared to the Euro, Pound, etc. To top it off, poor, dumb Americans are taught from a very young age to buy stuff they don't need. This all is paid for by credit, and these poor, dumb Americans are paying 20 percent on their credit and only make minimum payments... not understanding the structure of their debt agreement.

That's a long way of saying I don't expect things to get better soon.

Don't worry. The rest of the world is learning the magic of buying on credit too.
Cash
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4/5/2008  3:33 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by Cash:

I hope this thread doesn't get moved as i don't start a lot of topics, but I am really scared about the economy and I have been for awhile now. I don't think we are as competitive as a country as we used to be. What do you guys think?

As long as people are working they don't care.......to the people not working and beating the system? They don't care either cuz they are hustlers for life. Guys in between that want to work aren't poor enough to beat the system or fortunate enough to have gotten an education, the right trade, a city job, or hook up.....are screwed. Then they wanna make drug dealing and prostitution illegal? Lmao.

God bless america.

One of my personal favorite issues is taxing inherited wealth. If there is one thing that I hate is people who inherit tons of money, and have no idea what to do with it. I don't care if people make a ton of money and do a lot of smart stuff with it because it helps us all. However, when you have people who inherit a ton of money like jimmy dolan in the world, this is a big problem.

The problem with taxing inherited wealth as a practical matter is that is doesn't really work. People just move there wealth offshore. And, so we have to tax income, which just makes it harder for people to make up the relative difference in wealth that everyone initially starts with.

This is why I like the idea of a consumption tax(ie-fair tax). We basically just tax purchases so it gives people an incentive to save. And, the super rich are going to spend anyway, so we are going to be taxing them like crazy. Furthermore, all the money that is offshore is going to be brought back in so we are going to get a big spurt to our economy. Furthermore, its eliminates the corportate tax, which will spur economic activity as well. Finally, the fair tax provides a prebate to the poor who are below the poverty level, so that they can live too.

Relevant to your post however, is the incentives it provides to people who are poor. People are going to do what they have to do to survive. I am not particularly in favor of drug selling or prostitution, however I understand people are going to do what they have to. However, since a consumption tax actually taxes these activities in the form of there purchases, it gives people incentives to do more honest work. Right now, drug selling and prostitution are tax free activities. By at least taxing these things we make it easier for people to engage in activities that are legal, and probably better for them.

The fair tax also gives incentives to discourage illegal immigration. I'm not in favor of kicking anyone out, but I will tax that hell out of them if they come here illegally. Illegal immigration is hurting everyone's standard of living. Right now, we don't tax them at all. It is a free ride, although obviously they are being paid really low wages for their work. We need to give them incentives not to come here.



[Edited by - Cash on 04-05-2008 4:19 PM]
Cash
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4/5/2008  3:53 PM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

And I forgot, the government protects the rights of business. So, when all these people are losing their homes due to the credit crisis, how does the government help? They provided loans to the investment banks to bail those guys out. $250 million was given to JPMorgan, for example, to alleviate the liquidity crisis affecting the credit markets. This money was used to purchase Bear Stearns, and essentially saving a company that should be out of business. JPMorgan is happy to help, because they purchased Bear Stearns on a fraction of its true worth--WITH GOVERNMENT MONEY!!!

I'm pretty pissed off about the handling of this situation. A lot of folks either have lost their homes or are going to lose their homes... the Federal Government couldn't have taken that money and loaned it to those that got fast-talked into signing unfair mortgages?

Bill Gross is the managing director at PIMCO, where he oversees some $746 billion in assets. I think his line was pretty telling:

"In my opinion, the private credit markets have forfeited their privileged right to operate relatively autonomously because of incompetence, excessive greed, and in minor instances, fraudulent activities."

I understand this guy understands the situation significantly better than I, however, I must admit I don't think "minor instances" begins to due justice to the "fraudulent activities."

I think this mortgage crisis happened because of greed. However, greed is always going to be there. And a lot of poor people are always going to take what is given to them, so you really can't blame them either. Because of what recently happened
I don't think this problem will reoccur anytime soon. But, I have no problem trying to regulate future activity/problems. But, this is tricky, and I think too much regulation is generally a bad thing.
Siar617
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4/5/2008  3:58 PM
lets keep it simple
we are headed into a deppression
dont let the media fool you
jesus617 walks
JrZyHuStLa
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4/5/2008  5:44 PM
Posted by Siar617:

lets keep it simple
we are headed into a deppression
dont let the media fool you




[Edited by - jrzyhustla on 04-05-2008 5:47 PM]
SupremeCommander
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4/5/2008  7:43 PM
Posted by Cash:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

And I forgot, the government protects the rights of business. So, when all these people are losing their homes due to the credit crisis, how does the government help? They provided loans to the investment banks to bail those guys out. $250 million was given to JPMorgan, for example, to alleviate the liquidity crisis affecting the credit markets. This money was used to purchase Bear Stearns, and essentially saving a company that should be out of business. JPMorgan is happy to help, because they purchased Bear Stearns on a fraction of its true worth--WITH GOVERNMENT MONEY!!!

I'm pretty pissed off about the handling of this situation. A lot of folks either have lost their homes or are going to lose their homes... the Federal Government couldn't have taken that money and loaned it to those that got fast-talked into signing unfair mortgages?

Bill Gross is the managing director at PIMCO, where he oversees some $746 billion in assets. I think his line was pretty telling:

"In my opinion, the private credit markets have forfeited their privileged right to operate relatively autonomously because of incompetence, excessive greed, and in minor instances, fraudulent activities."

I understand this guy understands the situation significantly better than I, however, I must admit I don't think "minor instances" begins to due justice to the "fraudulent activities."

I think this mortgage crisis happened because of greed. However, greed is always going to be there. And a lot of poor people are always going to take what is given to them, so you really can't blame them either. Because of what recently happened
I don't think this problem will reoccur anytime soon. But, I have no problem trying to regulate future activity/problems. But, this is tricky, and I think too much regulation is generally a bad thing.

I agree with this setiment *almost* entirely. However, one of the fundamental political assumptions is that democracy serves the interest of the people or the public interest. Regulation should be implimented when the few rip off the many. What happened is speculators robbed from the laborers and the government bailed out the former, when I feel they should have bailed out the latter.

I don't want to make it sound like I endorse government interference, because I would prefer them to stay the hell out of my life. In this case, however, the markets are considered to be a public good. The investment banks took serious advantage of the public here and government regulation is necessary to ensure people don't get a hard one up their poop chute again. As long as I pay taxes, they should protect my interests instead of using that money as a get out of jail free card for their wealthy friends.
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simrud
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4/5/2008  8:14 PM
When thinking about the economy, a Biblical quote is the best thing to remember, as per Solomon, "All Shall Pass".

Cycles of boom and bust come and go, and in the long run, those who take a sensible approach to their finances make out.

Whether the swings should be as drastic as they is are a different story, but as long as the world economic policy is dominated by central banks and the fed, volatility will rule. This is a very old debate though, going back to our own Hamilton and Jefferson (not sure about Jefferson, but Hamilton was the main proponent of the central bank and foreign debt).

[Edited by - simrud on 04-05-2008 8:15 PM]
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
4949
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4/5/2008  10:02 PM
Posted by Cash:

I hope this thread doesn't get moved as i don't start a lot of topics, but I am really scared about the economy and I have been for awhile now. I don't think we are as competitive as a country as we used to be. What do you guys think?

To me a stronger dollar would mean a strong economy. A stronger economy means because of a better earner and spender. But a better earner and spender means a stable people. We are not' a stable people. I say this across the board. We are not balanced.

To me a better person is a well educated, one who is covered in health needs. When a government sells off jobs across seas, to make billions for cheap labor and doesn't invest in it's people, then the government doesn't know who made it rich in the first place.

To me, this is why our dollar is so weak. To me this is why some banks are in major doo doo with people who cannot afford to pay back those loans. If you break the messengers legs, then how is he supposed to deliver the message, and that's basically what has happened. Looks like stupid has finally caught up to the people. And the people are the ones who pay for it.

The situation is so desperate that now that government is handing out cheap stimulus packages to jump start it's own' economy again? The year is 2008. We're in the 21st century and we've taken a huge step backwards to stupidity. We have not become stronger, but dumber. We have learned nothing' from others past mistakes, but instead have chosen to pay for they're mistakes

All I know is 'when you invest into the people's education and cover their health, they respond much better overall and they eventually become better workers, earning more money thus becoming better spenders to constantly stimulate the economy. When you screw the programs that help the people, when you don't invest then you get a negative reaction.

It's no wonder the dollar is so weak. Stupid has caught up to us all and we're all gonna have to pay for it. On top of that, stupid has run up a debt that is so huge, that it makes the Knicks look like penny spenders. I don't blame that there are unions out there, coming down on companies who sell out and protecting the workers. Seems to be the only protection the commmon man and ever more, the middle class has to protect them from being out on the street.

The only way to make the field level and make the dollar strong again is to become self made and become an entreprenuer. To me that's the only way to spread the money out more, to make us a better economy.

I have nothing against the rich (for being rich) or capitalism. But the money has got' to be invested better into our society. I think the Bush government is the least kind of government that can heal this situation. We don't need politicians anymore. What we need are real people, who can acquire real power and start addressing the real needs with REAL CHANGE! I mean drastic major changes that cater's to everyone.

Wars and Wall Street do not make America strong. The people do. And the people come from many walks of life.

So we all need to choose whether we wanna be diveded by rich vs. poor, healthy vs. unhealthy, educated vs. uneducated or whether we all wanna be one strong people of many different communities. If we want to be strong as one, then the three catagories mentioned above is where you start.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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4/5/2008  10:10 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
Posted by Cash:

I hope this thread doesn't get moved as i don't start a lot of topics, but I am really scared about the economy and I have been for awhile now. I don't think we are as competitive as a country as we used to be. What do you guys think?

As long as people are working they don't care.......to the people not working and beating the system? They don't care either cuz they are hustlers for life. Guys in between that want to work aren't poor enough to beat the system or fortunate enough to have gotten an education, the right trade, a city job, or hook up.....are screwed. Then they wanna make drug dealing and prostitution illegal? Lmao.

God bless america.

So your a hustler who doesn't care Eny? Once your screwed, you never trust again. It's really sad. The worst part about it is 'when you except that you are a victim, then you will think and live a victims life. I'm not directing this at you specifically Eny, but that seems to be the going rate right now. I can talk all the good talk I want. It really comes down to each and everyone of you as individuals.

I could have went down that dishonest life long ago, but I killed the old me and chose to make honesty my foundation. it's mine and no one has to believe in it or dis-believe in it. It's mine and mine as an example if people choose to believe, but make your own beliefs, becasue sometimes a persons past, a persons personal problems can destroy a persons beliefs.

Being honest has let me live a life. Maybe not the kind of life I would've have wanted, but enough for me to earn a life I could want. I am too grateful for what I have sometimes, because it can weaken me in a competative world. It's a hard life dude. it's hard to live a clean life, in a world that seems to be selling out more and more every day. I think I'd rather die one day with no material possesions and to be able to say that I did it. lol
I'll never trust this' team again.
Cash
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4/5/2008  11:13 PM
I'll be kinda honest here, especially so since ucla lost today and I am kinda upset. I'm kinda pissed off that I have to even worry about the economy. I am a lawyer and the whole idea of distribution of labor is saying I shouldn't have to worry about the economy. I should be just defending the poor ****ing souls that are unfortunate enough to need my services. I think that should be enough, as I have to deal with the moral consequences of dealing with people who are committing crimes against others.

But the reality is that we are totally ****ed. And, 4949, i don't know as much about the dollar and the gold standard as I guess I should, because we should be exploring every option right now.

The economy problems are going to touch each and every one of you. Gay or Straight, Black or White, it doesn't matter. To a certain extent we all grew up in an environment where we expected a standard of living that we will not achieve. That sucks. We have been living beyond our means for a long time, not that I have been paying attention, cause I didn't think I had to.

But as voters, we need to at least demand some sort of fiscal responsiblity on the ticket. I don't care if it is obama/bloomberg or mccain/romney. We need to at least have someone on there that has a ****ing clue about the economy.

Cash
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4/5/2008  11:42 PM
BTW, this super ticket they talk about as far as obama/clinton is the biggest bs i have ever scene. I am happy for one of them to get elected(they would both be fine leaders), but to put both on is total pandering. We need someone on the ticket who has a ****ing clue about what is going on.
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4/6/2008  12:25 AM
While I'm not so down on things as you are Cash, but I do agree that none of the candidates are going to be good for the economy. Romney was the only one in the running. Bloomberg would have been nice, too. Too bad they are both not the right religion to be elected.

Obama sounds like the more reasonable one, but McCain is a republican, and will generally do less tampering (at least you would hope so). I'm not thrilled with either one of them. McCain just comes of as not being too bright. Obama's entourage is frightening. But Clinton is even scarier with her single payer total health care system.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Cash
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4/6/2008  12:36 AM
Posted by simrud:

While I'm not so down on things as you are Cash, but I do agree that none of the candidates are going to be good for the economy. Romney was the only one in the running. Bloomberg would have been nice, too. Too bad they are both not the right religion to be elected.

Obama sounds like the more reasonable one, but McCain is a republican, and will generally do less tampering (at least you would hope so). I'm not thrilled with either one of them. McCain just comes of as not being too bright. Obama's entourage is frightening. But Clinton is even scarier with her single payer total health care system.

I'm pretty sure the healthcare system is reversible(we are just giving money to people to get healthcare). I am pretty sure we get to a point where we have already spent to much money, and then we fix it. I'd prefer it to happen sooner than later.

s3231
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4/6/2008  5:21 PM
The fallout from the mortgage crisis isn't over yet, however, I don't think people should be concerned to the extent that the word "depression" is uttered. People don't realize that the Great Depression happened because what was the Fed back then, actually caused the Depression to be as bad as it was. There was a downward turn in the economy that began with the stock market crash, but, this would have just been a recession. What made the recession a depression was the Fed's decision to just sit back and do nothing about it. After large public banks were failing, panic ensued and people made "bank runs" (people go to the bank to withdraw their deposits).

What the Fed should have done back then (and what they would do today) is provide emergency lending to the banks or just buy government bonds on the open market to pump some money into the money supply and provide at least some liquidity. Had they done this, the money supply would not have fallen to the extent it did (and as fast for that matter).

So there should really be no concern about the possiblity of a Depression. The Fed has learned from the past and key economists today know how wrong the Fed was back then.

Another misconception is the theory that since we aren't major producers of goods, we are in trouble when it comes to trade. That is very wrong. We aren't major producers of goods, but we are very good in the services industry. Plus, the weakening dollar only helps us in international trade (I'm obviously not saying that a weak dollar is a good thing, but it has some benefits). Don't worry about our trade...

The "recession" word has been thrown around a lot lately. Let me make something clear, we are not nearing a recession, we are in one. The U.S. economy lost 80,000 jobs in March and that is hte biggest drop in 5 years. The unemployment rate has jumped to 5.1%. I don't think the Fed is done cutting interest rates and we'll probably see them do it again at the end of April.

As far as the Bear Stearns deal goes, the Fed was trying to do to prevent risks such as runs on other banks. The Fed was worried about the possiblity that there would have been a shutdown of credit, which would have entered the larger economy and hurt all of us. Keep in mind, that is the Fed's job, to worry about all of us. You guys might look at this as the Fed bailing out a investment bank that made stupid risks, but you should rather look at this as the Fed not wanting the economy to get worse. As I said before, the Depression happened because the Fed did nothing to make things better. Now people are attacking the Fed for taking some much needed action? If Bear Stearns wasn't sold, they would have had to file for bankruptcy. The markets would have been hurt tremendously and we all would have taken a hit.

The $2 a share price was ridiculous and just like other people, I feel bad for the Bear Stearns employees (I could have been one this summer had I not turned them down), but at least J.P. Morgan upped the offer to $10 a share (an extra billion essentially).

What I'm trying to say is while there is concern for the economy, things aren't going to be as terrible as some people predict. The Fed knows what it is doing. The markets also picked up a decent amount last week. We still need to make changes and hopefully whoever is elected, realizes that. This government has done a poor job of spending its money and I really do believe we need to use more of that money to invest in this country and not wars. Our nation's education has definitely fallen behind and that is an area we need to get better at. Our health care system is a mess, however, we can't just give free health care to everyone (Romney's health care plan actually would help us a lot).

Romney isn't likable, but he would have done wonders for the economy as President. I'm still holding out hope that McCain makes him his VP candidate, but you never know with these guys.





"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
4949
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4/6/2008  6:11 PM
Posted by Cash:

BTW, this super ticket they talk about as far as obama/clinton is the biggest bs i have ever scene. I am happy for one of them to get elected(they would both be fine leaders), but to put both on is total pandering. We need someone on the ticket who has a ****ing clue about what is going on.

I happen to think both represent most Americans. The more I think about it, the more I think both would be good as a team. I don't want this to turn into a politcal thread (and I mean it) but I just want to add my thought onto this. She has thoroughly proven to carry the female, 45 and older and hispanic vote. He has proven to carry the black, 44 and younger and independants vote. Basically the white vote has in some cases been slpit down the middle. To have so many people voting for you from one side or another is a pretty lopsided pull if you ask me.

Here's my next prediction. No matter which one wins nomination, I believe either one will lose a lot of support from the others support. To maintain that support, I think it would' be better to run both on the same ticket. Talk about historic! Here's where I think it is criticle. I have a gut feeling that a main core of white males will jump to McCain if either a black man wins or a woman wins. I know, judging from all of the articles and polls I have been follwing, I think I can safely say that this is true. Now' with that said, if they both' ran on the same ticket, they would lose a lot less' voters, as long as their candidate was up for getting into the white house one way or the other.

You can dissagree with me on this if you want and if you do, then give us your reason why. Here is my own reason why I think it should come out this way. Eveyone knows the Clinton's love power. They are good at it. There is no way Hillary is going to take a vice president position. Why? She is older and she want's to be president. I have long believed that this country needs a womans touch. I have long believed that this country longs for nurturing love and as a representative of all women, would empower women to be able to do more for that cause, which could translate into future, more understanding generations to come. Don't ask me how. All I know is 'it's been a mans world for thousands of years, and we all think' like men'.

If' a double ticket where in place and Obama where to take vice president position, wouldn't it make more sense to be taken under that wing of a former president and former first lady, as' vice president, two people who bring a combined total of almost 60 years of political experience, sitting or non sitting, to be shared with this guy of 42 years old? The Clinton's have huge world connections that Obama could get to know and harnest a great reputation for when he runs on his own. By then, there would be no way anyone could question his experience and if he is as popular now by many, don't you think he'd be even more popular by the time Hillary finishes her term or two?

Getting back to the economy and the affect it has on the citizens of the United States, wouldn't you think that a duo like this would be just what America needed? Two people who have a so much better understanding of what people need as ordinary citizens and who have so much popularity, the potential of so much power, the kind of power that would be needed to make the world a little better for all? I think if the world ever had a chance, if America ever had a chance for this kind of power to be used for the better of the human spirit, I believe this would be it. A first step for human kindness. To keep from possibly destroying ourselves as well as everyone else. No one individual can rule the world no longer, because of the readiness of information constantly at hand and human common sense.

Yes, I am laying down my gloves and I am saying that I think they should go into it together. I don't think McCain is a bad guy, but I don't think he'd be able to represent everyone like these two could. Let's not make this into a gender or race thing anymore. Let's think about what we all really need. Good jobs and good health care. That's what pays the bills in the end. And as Knicks fans, lets enjoy the finer things in life, like a new GM and the possibility of isiah being thrown to the wovles.
I'll never trust this' team again.
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4/6/2008  7:23 PM
Interesting comments but I have to disagree with a good many of them. If what you guys say is true then the banks that lend money in the form of subprime lons are the only people to blame. While this sounds righteous and proper it is not entirely true. The idiots that went and borrowed money they could not pay back are just as responsible for this mess.

Borrowing money and living beyond our means is a social desease and it has spread far and wide. Capitalism is a system that inherently polarizes wealth. So the rich get richer the poor get debt. If you try to bail out the people who really got screwed and and are foreclosing on their homes you will be accused of socialism. If you bail out the banks ...well just see above. What was the Fed supposed to do? I for one think the Bear Stearns bailout was something the had to do. Otherwise the markets would have taken a complete nosedive and all bets were off. but if they had done nothing the markets would have corrected themselves except thousands of people would have seen their liftime savings being wiped out by plunging equity markets. Unfortunately that is not a popular course of action.

There are two things wrong with the economy:

1. The whole country seems to subscribe to the idea that regardless of who you are and what type opf background you come from if you have the entrepreneurial spirit you will be able to make it. -- WRONG. Sorry to spell it out guys, the american Dream is just that, its a DREAM. The only way you can do anything if you are not already rich is by borrowing money...

2. We can borrow our way out of trouble indefinitely. This does not work has been proved over and over again but we are so caught up in living beyond our means that no one pays any attention to this. Someone here made a great point, the US does not really produce anything at all. (well except food) -- How to stop this? Ban all borrowing? So we would all have to spend our entre lives living in apartments instead of houses? Taking the bus to work instead of driving some gas guzzling SUV that we dont need? -- Would you all agree to that lifestyle? -- As long as this country continues to waste resources and keeps up the frenzy of consumerism there is no way out of this. Its spiralling downwards and fast.

TKF on Melo ::....he is a punk, a jerk, a self absorbed out of shape, self aggrandizing, unprofessional, volume chucking coach killing playoff loser!!
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