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Whats our no. 1 pick status after this year?
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Nalod
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3/17/2008  9:52 AM

Don't we owe a pick to Utah? Its protected, but that lifts by 2009? 2010?
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Cosmic
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3/17/2008  10:01 AM
The pick owed to Phoenix for Marbury - which was traded to Utah - is top 20+ protected in 2008 and 2009. It's unprotected in 2010.

Therefore we will be giving Utah our unprotected 2010 first rounder.


We simply won't be good enough this year (obviously) or next year (most likely) to be one of the top 8-10 teams in the league - which would allow us to give them a pick in the 20s.

By default it's going to end up being the 2010 1st rounder - which will likely be a lotto pick.



For a little history on Isiah's 1st rounders shipped out:

2004: 1st Rounder to PHO for Marbury
2005: Channing Frye
2006: 1st Rounder to CHI for Curry
2007: Swapped Picks with CHI*
2008: We can trade this pick or keep it.
2009: Regardless of keeping the 08 pick we can't trade this one.**
2010: Unprotected 1st Rounder goes to Utah via PHO


*- You can't trade consecutive 1st rounders thats why this was a swap.
**- You can't trade consecutive 1st rounders thats why we MUST select our 2009 - and might watch our 2008 go to some stupid trade.

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Masterplan
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3/17/2008  10:40 AM
we also owe our next two #2 picks. this year to portland (d-nice/z-bo trade) and next year's to chicago (eddy ).
franco12
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3/17/2008  12:10 PM
actually- if we're picking in the five spot- I wonder if we should explore moving it to Utah this year instead of waiting for a lotto pick in 2010.

I know that this might be counterintuitive, but if the quality of this draft is poor, it might make more sense to move it this year rather than in 2010.
TheGame
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3/17/2008  4:28 PM
Posted by franco12:

actually- if we're picking in the five spot- I wonder if we should explore moving it to Utah this year instead of waiting for a lotto pick in 2010.

I know that this might be counterintuitive, but if the quality of this draft is poor, it might make more sense to move it this year rather than in 2010.

I think the hope would be that by 2010, we would not be in the lottery. To make a move like this would be saying that we know we are going to be as bad in two years as we are right now. No team is going to do that, not even the inept management of the Knicks.
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franco12
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3/17/2008  5:48 PM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by franco12:

actually- if we're picking in the five spot- I wonder if we should explore moving it to Utah this year instead of waiting for a lotto pick in 2010.

I know that this might be counterintuitive, but if the quality of this draft is poor, it might make more sense to move it this year rather than in 2010.

I think the hope would be that by 2010, we would not be in the lottery. To make a move like this would be saying that we know we are going to be as bad in two years as we are right now. No team is going to do that, not even the inept management of the Knicks.

is that a hope or expectation.

with all the talent we have added with isiah, I would have, two years ago, figured we'd be in the play offs by now.

take an honest assessment of the lump of crap that is our roster, add pick 5, add a new gm and coach and honestly tell me in how many years will it be for us to make the play offs.

my answer is this is a 3-5 year rebuild process at least because we have to undo the damage of isiah. when will we be free of zach, jeffries, curry and jerome? or, do you think they can be winners?
Bonn1997
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3/17/2008  6:41 PM
The Marbury trade is like a gift that just keeps on giving
sebstar
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3/17/2008  7:33 PM
Posted by franco12:

actually- if we're picking in the five spot- I wonder if we should explore moving it to Utah this year instead of waiting for a lotto pick in 2010.

I know that this might be counterintuitive, but if the quality of this draft is poor, it might make more sense to move it this year rather than in 2010.

Are you out of your damn mind?!?
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franco12
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3/17/2008  10:44 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by franco12:

actually- if we're picking in the five spot- I wonder if we should explore moving it to Utah this year instead of waiting for a lotto pick in 2010.

I know that this might be counterintuitive, but if the quality of this draft is poor, it might make more sense to move it this year rather than in 2010.

Are you out of your damn mind?!?

No!

I'm using logic.

Lets say we pick at 5.

Does the five pick get us a game changer? Are we looking at another Channing Frye or Sweetney?

If there is a significant drop after 1 & 2 in this draft, we ought to look ahead- novel thing for this organization- at the 2010 draft and make some kind of assessment of whether it might be deeper or if we might be picking higher.

Lets say we keep five. Great. Add that pick to our garbage, and are we winning that many more games next year? I think we're right back in the 20's/30's range- and that gets us what? A pick again in 2009 in lets say the 7-13 range.

I'd call Utah and see if we can swap this years pick for our 2010 & their pick- trade down, clear up a future obligation and really tank full scale. do it right like minny & seattle and do it well for the next three years and rebuild fully with youth.
doomed
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3/18/2008  3:36 PM
You're better off keeping this year's pick and worrying about 2010's pick when the time comes. Today's picks have more value than tomorrow picks.
Solace
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3/18/2008  4:02 PM
I think franco makes a good point, but I would be of the mindset that we could get more with the #5 overall pick. So, my thought would be that we should be able to swap the 2008 1st for our 2010 pick plus another Utah first rounder. If that was the case, would you do it? Depends on if you're high on who is at #5. I agree with franco that this may turn out to be a pretty crappy draft, so there may be some logic to it.
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sebstar
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3/18/2008  4:31 PM
Posted by Solace:

I think franco makes a good point, but I would be of the mindset that we could get more with the #5 overall pick. So, my thought would be that we should be able to swap the 2008 1st for our 2010 pick plus another Utah first rounder. If that was the case, would you do it? Depends on if you're high on who is at #5. I agree with franco that this may turn out to be a pretty crappy draft, so there may be some logic to it.

I see no logic to it, and its an absurd thought. 2010 is a complete unknown quantity. How can anyone theorize that there is no possible way we can significantly improve in two years. Especially in basketball, where given the # of personnel involved, turnaround can be exceedingly quick. Franco's suggestion is downright cowardly. How could a professional organization possibly justify such a maneuver? Just give up a #5 pick????
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arkrud
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3/18/2008  4:47 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Solace:

I think franco makes a good point, but I would be of the mindset that we could get more with the #5 overall pick. So, my thought would be that we should be able to swap the 2008 1st for our 2010 pick plus another Utah first rounder. If that was the case, would you do it? Depends on if you're high on who is at #5. I agree with franco that this may turn out to be a pretty crappy draft, so there may be some logic to it.

I see no logic to it, and its an absurd thought. 2010 is a complete unknown quantity. How can anyone theorize that there is no possible way we can significantly improve in two years. Especially in basketball, where given the # of personnel involved, turnaround can be exceedingly quick. Franco's suggestion is downright cowardly. How could a professional organization possibly justify such a maneuver? Just give up a #5 pick????

Yep.
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ramtour420
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3/18/2008  8:03 PM
If zeke gets canned (fingers crossed) we will not be picking as high in the lottery next year. Dolan with turn red and his head will explode if the new gm suggests just flat out tanking, knicks are #1 money making team in the league, lets not forget. and with any new gm we'll likely have a better record next year and the year after etc. So no turning this years pick into some randon pick in 3 years when hopefully we wount even be in the lottery
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BasketballJones
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3/18/2008  8:10 PM
The Knicks don't need picks. They are better off without them because Zeke does such a stellar job of finding diamonds in the rough late in the draft. Those picks are best used for trades to bring valuable players back to the Knicks. One idea is to see if we can take this upcoming pick, package it with David Lee, and see if we can bring back Stevie Franchise. I really don't think Zeke had enough of a chance to get Stevie and Marbs working together.



[Edited by - basketballjones on 03-18-2008 20:11]
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PresIke
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3/18/2008  8:51 PM
Posted by Cosmic:


For a little history on Isiah's 1st rounders shipped out:

2004: 1st Rounder to PHO for Marbury
2005: Channing Frye
2006: 1st Rounder to CHI for Curry
2007: Swapped Picks with CHI*
2008: We can trade this pick or keep it.
2009: Regardless of keeping the 08 pick we can't trade this one.**
2010: Unprotected 1st Rounder goes to Utah via PHO


*- You can't trade consecutive 1st rounders thats why this was a swap.
**- You can't trade consecutive 1st rounders thats why we MUST select our 2009 - and might watch our 2008 go to some stupid trade.

Cosmic, bro, you're mixing a pretty good amount of speculation/opinion with fact. We don't know if that's the reason that the pick Isiah swapped with Chicago was because he wasn't allowed to do that two years in a row. Is there a source for such a claim? It was also only a swap if we would be worse than Chicago. Yes, I know some thought that's what would happen, but it wasn't as if this was commonly accepted with Brown coming in as coach, and given his track record.

Also, yes it seems likely now that we will give Utah a lotto 2010 pick, but let's see what happens over the next year. I ain't saying things are in our favor, but stranger things have happened.

Interesting insights on trading picks over the next few years, btw.
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djsunyc
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3/18/2008  9:00 PM
ike, cosmic is right, you can't trade 2 consecutive #1 picks. the rule was put in place b/c some old cleveland owner in the 70's kept trading away every draft pick. apparently paxson was going to settle for 1 first rounder but his capologist suggested the swap and isiah agreed to throw in the 2nd pick.

if we acquire another #1 pick in 2009, then we can trade ours. we just need to have at least one first round pick every other year.
djsunyc
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3/18/2008  9:11 PM
here's the question - will dolan allow for a rebuild?

if the answer is no, then they're better off trading our first round pick if they don't get a top 3. you can get a very nice player using malik's expiring and the pick that could put the knicks into the playoffs.

if it's not about winning a title, then isiah's method was not a bad one, it's just that he was a terrible gm that has a bad eye for talent - YES, he has a bad eye for talent. his drafting is severely overrated and his trades have been terrible. he has a decent eye for SKILLSET, which is very different.

if a gm came in and picked different players, then the results would be very different.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 03-18-2008 9:12 PM]
Solace
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3/18/2008  10:42 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Solace:

I think franco makes a good point, but I would be of the mindset that we could get more with the #5 overall pick. So, my thought would be that we should be able to swap the 2008 1st for our 2010 pick plus another Utah first rounder. If that was the case, would you do it? Depends on if you're high on who is at #5. I agree with franco that this may turn out to be a pretty crappy draft, so there may be some logic to it.

I see no logic to it, and its an absurd thought. 2010 is a complete unknown quantity. How can anyone theorize that there is no possible way we can significantly improve in two years. Especially in basketball, where given the # of personnel involved, turnaround can be exceedingly quick. Franco's suggestion is downright cowardly. How could a professional organization possibly justify such a maneuver? Just give up a #5 pick????

1 for 1, no, I think it's too presumptuous. Even in a bad draft, a #5 pick is generally better than a mid pick. I think there's a good chance we still suck in 2010, though. Let's say in 2010, we got the #10 overall. Toss in another pick ontop of it from the Jazz and it's potentially even. This could even be a good move if your plan is to defer salary and if you have faith that the 2010 draft will be better.

Not to say I would do the move, but I wouldn't immediately discount it either.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
BasketballJones
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3/18/2008  11:28 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

if a [different] gm came in and picked different players, then the results would be very different.

Profound.
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