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What should the Knicks do with Lee and Nate this offseason?
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islesfan
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3/4/2008  11:41 PM
When Knicks Look at Future, the Future May Look Away

By HOWARD BECK
Published: March 5, 2008

There were boos Monday night at Madison Square Garden, though not for the usual reasons. The Knicks were losing, of course, but the jeers were stoked by a more subtle act: the removal of Nate Robinson from the game in the final minutes.

In the empty final weeks of another dismal season, fans are groping for shards of optimism. So they cheer every jitterbug step by Robinson and every gritty rebound by David Lee — two Knicks who most represent the faint promise of better days.

Imagine, then, the howls of anguish if Lee and Robinson decide to escape the misery, the chaos and the Garden politics by leaving as free agents. If circumstances are bad enough, it could happen in the next two years.

As third-year players, Lee and Robinson are both eligible to sign lucrative contract extensions this summer. When that time comes, they will have to weigh the benefits of financial security against the drawbacks of playing for the league’s most dysfunctional franchise.

In three years with the Knicks, Robinson and Lee have endured the Larry Brown-Stephon Marbury feud, the Brown-Isiah Thomas feud and the Thomas-Marbury feud. They have played for two coaches, and could see a third by next fall. They have lost twice as many games as they have won.

As members of the news media obsess over the whereabouts of Marbury — the pouting face of the Knicks’ inglorious recent past — it is the Knicks’ future that could be at stake as they trudge through the final 22 games.

Lee and Robinson say it is too soon to ponder their decision. They acknowledge that dollar figures will not be the only issue to consider. But for now, they are projecting a rosy, politically correct view.

“Put it this way,” Lee said. “I love New York, I love playing in New York, love everything about New York. I wish we could win more.” Channeling Frank Sinatra, he added, “If I could choose to make it anywhere, it’d be in New York, to be a part of the team that turns it around.”

Robinson, in a separate interview, echoed that theme.

“I’m the type of person that I love a challenge,” he said, “and here is a challenge for us to win. I would love to stay here.”

The first decision belongs to the Knicks’ front office, which itself could be in transition this summer if Thomas is fired as the team’s coach and president. But whoever is in charge is almost certain to offer the extensions.

Robinson and Lee are the Knicks players most coveted by rival executives. Robinson, a fleet-footed 5-foot-9 guard, is supremely athletic and a gifted scorer. Lee, a 6-9 power forward, is among the best rebounders at his position and is a consummate team player. Each is a hustling, high-energy player who routinely draws the loudest ovations at the Garden.

Neither one projects as a superstar, but if the Knicks ever acquire a true franchise player, they would be valuable teammates.

Without extensions, Robinson and Lee would become restricted free agents in the summer of 2009 and unrestricted free agents in 2010.

Under N.B.A. rules, the extensions can span up to five years, with a starting salary of up to about $13 million. Lee and Robinson will probably command less. But their starting salaries will surely exceed the league average (about $5.3 million).

By N.B.A. standards, Lee and Robinson have earned modest salaries under the league’s rookie scale. Robinson, the 21st pick in 2005, has earned $3.56 million in his first three seasons. Lee, the 30th pick in 2005, has earned $2.78 million.

Conventional wisdom dictates that players sign big contracts as soon as possible, to guard against a possible career-ending injury.

“I’m not a guy that’s real flamboyant in my lifestyle, so money probably doesn’t mean as much to me as it does to other guys,” Lee said. “But everybody wants to have that security.”

Robinson, who has two young sons, said signing a big extension was “the smart thing to do.”

“Growing up, struggling, my mom raised three kids all by herself,” he said. “I want my kids to have a better life than what I had growing up.”

Eric Goodwin, one of Robinson’s agents, said that money is never the only factor when he is advising clients.

“It’s about the opportunity to grow, it’s about the opportunity to be on a good team and to be somewhere where you’re wanted,” he said.

The Knicks’ personnel moves — via the June draft, free agency and trades — could also have an impact on the decision on whether to sign, Goodwin said.

“You look at everything,” said Mark Bartelstein, who represents Lee.

If Robinson and Lee want to keep their options open, they could sign for three or four years, rather than the maximum five.

The decision is also a tricky one for the franchise. The Knicks are on track to be under the salary cap in 2010 — after the contracts of Marbury, Malik Rose, Quentin Richardson and Jerome James have expired. The 2010 free-agent class could include LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. Every signing the Knicks make before then will cut into their cap space.

(The Knicks will have to add some payroll in any case. They have only four players — Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph and Jared Jeffries — under contract for the 2010-11 season, at a total of $45.6 million.)

But there are no sure things in N.B.A. free agency, so the Knicks will probably make every effort to keep Lee and Robinson, who could be valuable trading chips as well as valued teammates.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
AUTOADVERT
islesfan
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3/4/2008  11:47 PM
I think Nate will be inclined to sign any long term deal put in front of him. Lee on the other hand might only take their qualifying offer with an eye towards unrestricted free agency in 2010.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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3/4/2008  11:51 PM
Posted by islesfan:

I think Nate will be inclined to sign any long term deal put in front of him. Lee on the other hand might only take their qualifying offer with an eye towards unrestricted free agency in 2010.

Mark Bartelstein usually goes for Maximum Dollars for his clients. Goodwin on the other hand tends to reserve those rights towards the client or who he feel truly are his cash cows.
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TMS
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3/4/2008  11:54 PM
i'd keep D Lee as long as his asking salary isn't out of reason, meaning nothing over 7 mil per.

Nate's a hard guy to figure out... he showed a lot of improvement this year, but he still gets into stupid confrontations w/his teammates, which isn't a good sign... if we can draft a star calibre G in the lottery this season & sign a more traditional backup PG using the MLE or LLE, i don't mind letting Nate go.
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Cosmic
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3/5/2008  12:01 AM
To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?
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islesfan
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3/5/2008  12:09 AM
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Allanfan20
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3/5/2008  12:11 AM
I'd LOVE to keep them both. Lee still shows promise and Robinson has matured a lot and has improved a lot this season and behind it all, shows a great jumpshot. Even better than Crawford and Qs. I'd actually elect to keep Nate just as much as I'd elect to keep Lee for that very reason.

Just buyout Zach and Marbury, trade Curry and maybe even Crawford for whatever we can get that can help our future. Start playing Morris. Draft a guard. Trade for a pick and Draft Thabeet. Sign a veteran guard to part of the MLE. We'd be in true rebuilding mode, but we'd be in a step in the right direction. Invite Houston to come back to training camp and guarantee him a spot, like how he should have been guaranteed one last camp. Let Jerome rot on the bench.

What we do with Quentin is beyond me.
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Cosmic
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3/5/2008  12:14 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?


Rights?

Yeah...rights.

Besides isn't Lee (as much as I like him) a product of playing on a garbage team of chumps who don't play hard?

Now, I think on any team Lee could be a valuable bench asset - which does place him in the MLE range - yet, given our payroll and the fact we're the worst team with the highest payroll - the last thing we need to do is think we need to lock up David Lee - AKA overpaying drastically for a player.

Let someone else set the market. IF it's too high, see ya Dave, Wish ya well. If it's decent, match it and retain him - we have the rights to do so.

(food for thought - on another rant/thread some day - CBA and birds rights especially DESTROYED this league!!!)

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Cosmic
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3/5/2008  12:15 AM
Ah yeah okay...I see I'm damn tired and stupid in this hour of time. If unrestricted we can't match? Fine. If someone wants to pay David Lee an absurd amount of money to be David Lee?

See ya.........
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TrueBlue
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3/5/2008  12:16 AM
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?


I agree.

We have their birds rights and can match any offer they get if we exercise the QO. Let them test the waters if they want as a RFA, because they will, they won't want to get paid under $3mil for their services and see what their market value will be. If they sign low ball offer sheets then obviously we match. If they sign second look offer sheets work S&T's and make sure it involves a team under the cap, while at the same time acquiring pick(s).
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
BlueSeats
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3/5/2008  12:17 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?


Bird Rights. We are allowed to resign our own players provided they've been with us a certain period of time (3 years, I think) or if their Bird rights were transferred in the trade (which is how we would have been able to re-sign 'Sheed had we been able to get him rather than Detroit.)
Cosmic
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3/5/2008  12:20 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?


I agree.

We have their birds rights and can match any offer they get if we exercise the QO. Let them test the waters if they want as a RFA, because they will, they won't want to get paid under $3mil for their services and see what their market value will be. If they sign low ball offer sheets then obviously we match. If they sign second look offer sheets work S&T's and make sure it involves a team under the cap, while at the same time acquiring pick(s).

Is that how it works? I'm confused as usual on this CBA crapola....but my original statement of - let someone else set the market for these guys then decide to match or not - holds true.

No need to strap ourself with a backup on a huge contract if he is indeed a product of looking good on a garbage team!!!!!

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BlueSeats
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3/5/2008  12:25 AM
We shouldn't over extend ourselves for these guys, but at the same time why play cat and mouse? Offer them reasonable extensions and see where their hearts lie. If they want to go fishing out in the deep blue sea they are welcome to, but in doing so they risk the chance of career ending injuries. Sensible contracts make sense for both parties.
islesfan
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3/5/2008  12:27 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?


Bird Rights. We are allowed to resign our own players provided they've been with us a certain period of time (3 years, I think) or if their Bird rights were transferred in the trade (which is how we would have been able to re-sign 'Sheed had we been able to get him rather than Detroit.)

I thought Bird Rights had to do with going over the cap to sign your own free agents. For example, in the summer of 2009, Lee will be a restricted FA, assuming the Knicks have offered him a qualifying offer this offseason and Lee doesn't sign a long term deal. As a restricted FA, Lee can shop for a deal from another team but because the Knicks retain his Bird Rights, they can match any deal, even though they are over the cap.

I've never heard of a team being able to match an unrestricted free agents deal with another team. Hence the term "unrestricted".
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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3/5/2008  12:29 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?


Bird Rights. We are allowed to resign our own players provided they've been with us a certain period of time (3 years, I think) or if their Bird rights were transferred in the trade (which is how we would have been able to re-sign 'Sheed had we been able to get him rather than Detroit.)


Correct.
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SupremeCommander
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3/5/2008  12:34 AM
The advantage the home team has in RFA is that the home team can match, essentially meaning to take on the signed deal.

The advantage in UFA is two-fold. Only the home team can exceed the cap, due to Bird rights. The home team can also pay (i believe) 25 percent more than any other club per the CBA, like when the Clippers couldn't offer as much as the Lakers.
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TrueBlue
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3/5/2008  12:34 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:

We shouldn't over extend ourselves for these guys, but at the same time why play cat and mouse? Offer them reasonable extensions and see where their hearts lie. If they want to go fishing out in the deep blue sea they are welcome to, but in doing so they risk the chance of career ending injuries. Sensible contracts make sense for both parties.

But what's reasonable when they know what they're entitled to from us extension wise? I mean have either of these guys been able to prove their real value? If not how do you go about offering them an extension? If I'm Nate or Lee I surely don't want to be paid off of current production and role on team.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 03-04-2008 11:41 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
kam77
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3/5/2008  12:35 AM
Please let them test restricted free agency, We'll match reasonable offers.
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BlueSeats
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3/5/2008  12:39 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Cosmic:

To this discussion I offer a post I already laid down in the Lee thread......



***********


If the Knicks are in their right minds they will offer him the Qualifying in 09/10 of 2.68M. Then as an unrestricted FA in July 2010 he is free to try to get 50, 60, 80M from some stupid team or we can freely match any reasonable contract offer sheet he signs.

Given our position there is no reason to offer David Lee or Nate or anybody else a contract extension.

Besides, why worry about this now, when Isiah might not get fired and might be allowed to make another retarded draft day deal that might see Lee and our pick sent out for someone else's overpaid crap?

How can the Knicks match if Lee is an unrestricted Free Agent?


Bird Rights. We are allowed to resign our own players provided they've been with us a certain period of time (3 years, I think) or if their Bird rights were transferred in the trade (which is how we would have been able to re-sign 'Sheed had we been able to get him rather than Detroit.)

I thought Bird Rights had to do with going over the cap to sign your own free agents. For example, in the summer of 2009, Lee will be a restricted FA, assuming the Knicks have offered him a qualifying offer this offseason and Lee doesn't sign a long term deal. As a restricted FA, Lee can shop for a deal from another team but because the Knicks retain his Bird Rights, they can match any deal, even though they are over the cap.

I've never heard of a team being able to match an unrestricted free agents deal with another team. Hence the term "unrestricted".


I'm too lazy to look it up, but I think the unrestricted aspect means that the players can go to another team weather we match the offer or not, which isn't the case when they are restricted. But I'm pretty sure we retain the ability to exceed the cap for either scenario, because they are our players.
TrueBlue
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3/5/2008  12:40 AM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

The advantage the home team has in RFA is that the home team can match, essentially meaning to take on the signed deal.

The advantage in UFA is two-fold. Only the home team can exceed the cap, due to Bird rights. The home team can also pay (i believe) 25 percent more than any other club per the CBA, like when the Clippers couldn't offer as much as the Lakers.

Exactly go the RFA route and let the market determine their value, there's no need to bid against yourself or against a player and his agent until it's absolutely necessary.

These aren't Superstar players we're talking about who you obviously would want to lock up ASAP.

The home team can pay up to 25% salary cap(wherever it's set at) for a UFA plus 10% raises each yr of contract. Competing teams can pay up to 20% of salary cap(wherever it's set at) plus 8% raises each yr of contract. Home team can go over the cap to sign there own FA... RFA or UFA as long as they own their BR and don't Renounce and/or exercise QO's.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 03-04-2008 11:43 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
What should the Knicks do with Lee and Nate this offseason?

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