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Can you rebuild in NY?


Author Poll
islesfan
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Will you accept 2-3 years, which will be needed, of house cleaning, fumigating and salary cap cleansing, after Isiah is gone? Will you support the next team president and GM as long as they show that they have a clear plan to rebuild this franchise?
Yes
No
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Author Thread
nyk4ever
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2/19/2008  9:47 AM
For the love of God YES YES and YES!
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Klytus
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2/19/2008  9:53 AM
Absolutely.
Cosmic
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2/19/2008  10:00 AM
For anyone who for a second say no I ask you why?

You'll tell me "Because New York won't tolerate 4 or 5 losing seasons during a rebuilding process."

Then I'll tell you Isiah has been trying to WIN NOW ever since he got here and we've sucked for 4 going on 5 seasons..........which means it's been a complete and total waste of time........time that could have been spent rebuilding.

Then you'll mutter some Isiah speak "we're longer, younger, and more athletic, they're young, give them time." and promptly disappear until the next two-game win streak.




....
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Nalod
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2/19/2008  10:20 AM
I say no, that fans won't tolerate the bynums and other young players.

Good teams with winning charactor and a winning culture do that the best. They can bring in kids and work them thru the system. San Antonio and the Lakers are doing it. There comes a time when you can even trade one to get a piece you need. On the lakes guys like Walton play a key role in maitaining the system. The bulls were masterful of taking role players and blending them in the system. I think Phil Jax is often not given enough credit for enhancing his role players.

I thought the Nets could have been special but the stars there are not condusive to a winning culture. I thought they could blend in some nice players and they would rise to enhance. Perhaps its vince, perhaps its Kidd or Jeff, but it ain't there.

Take the Patriots, they have a core with a system in place that can accept the veteran players at the back end of their careers but the young guys benefit from leadership.

Losers starphuch often looking for a savior but that seldom works as it does not evoke leadership or a intolerance to losing. I think this is whats keeping the suns back as perhaps Marion was seen as too negative and self serving. Nash is certainly the floor general but he has not had total control of his lockerroom from what I have read. Shaq will command respect and empower Amare and defer enough to Nash to help him. This may have as big an impact as anything. Grant Hill certainly understands winning from college and could also lend a veterans push. With out Marion, don't write off the Suns even is Shaq is not the Shaq of old.

Can you just blow it up and rebuild?

Answer lies in the quality of kids and how you can foster a culture that is intolerant to losing. These rich kids when all bunched together is very hard to keep them focused on winning when they are just rookies or very young and lose a lot. They learn to live with it.

The answer is no, I don't think we can do it. Isiah tried to rebuild on the fly which can be done but you don't do it with boneheads as your leadership!!!!!!!!

BigSm00th
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2/19/2008  10:26 AM
what does that mean "the fans won't tolerate it." could you explain that, nalod? if the fans won't tolerate it they just won't show up. if isiah came in and DAY ONE said "this is the situation, this is my plan, i'm going to clear cap space, accumulate draft picks, and in 3 years we will be moving in the right direction" why would fans have said NO YOU CANT DO THAT. that just makes no sense to me, and if people didnt' like it, the garden would be empty but does that mean you can't rebuild? no.

you also said you can rebuild on the fly which i disagree with, you need a set-in-stone plan. look at the blazers over the last few years. they've gotten rid of all the scumbags and long-term contracts, now have the youngest team in the NBA which is also in playoff contention in the west, they have last years number 1 pick OUT FOR THE YEAR yet they are still contending, they have more cap space coming up AND more draft picks and players stashed over seas. that is rebuilding, and the fans are SHOWING UP and the results are there.
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dodger78
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2/19/2008  10:28 AM
All I need to swallow those rebuilding years is a plan that the GM can present to the fans and that I can trust in!!!
Nalod
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2/19/2008  11:06 AM
Posted by BigSm00th:

what does that mean "the fans won't tolerate it." could you explain that, nalod? if the fans won't tolerate it they just won't show up. if isiah came in and DAY ONE said "this is the situation, this is my plan, i'm going to clear cap space, accumulate draft picks, and in 3 years we will be moving in the right direction" why would fans have said NO YOU CANT DO THAT. that just makes no sense to me, and if people didnt' like it, the garden would be empty but does that mean you can't rebuild? no.

you also said you can rebuild on the fly which i disagree with, you need a set-in-stone plan. look at the blazers over the last few years. they've gotten rid of all the scumbags and long-term contracts, now have the youngest team in the NBA which is also in playoff contention in the west, they have last years number 1 pick OUT FOR THE YEAR yet they are still contending, they have more cap space coming up AND more draft picks and players stashed over seas. that is rebuilding, and the fans are SHOWING UP and the results are there.

By the way, I am always on the hope and its my preference to blow it up.

But GM's do make errors and providing you get a true blue chip in the top 3, your open to alot of ridicule which gets blown up when the losing starts.

Example, Darko and Kwame were out right busts. You think if you tank and pick them up you'll get over it at the box office so fast??? You think that you take a carmello and as a rookie lay the franchise on his shoulders he might have done worse under the pressure of NY? The guy was a young bone head but being in denver helped, as did AI to deflect much pressure. Carmello was on a bad track, and look, it still took a few years for him to mature.

Kobe did not blossom until his 3rd season. Im not just talking stats.

I really think most of UK type fans can handle it, but not at the box office and not the causual fan. Given the bad rep the team has corp. sponsers might also pull out. So when I say "intolerant" and not talking about most intense fans. Actually, I don't think there are all that many season ticket holders on the board. be interesting to see what season tix holders only think about going into a two year blow up just so year 3 your getting some cap room and some hope of a young team. Maybe its 5 years?

Portland is settling back down into reality but look at that market, its the only game in town and the team has some serious upside. In NY, you will be competing with another NBA team, 3 hockey teams, two football NFL franchises, two Major league baseball franchises, a few minor league baseball teams, MLS soccer, those arena football and lacrosse leagues, as well as broadway, amusement parks, horse racing and other entertainment dollars to compete with.

If im a season ticket holder, I don't know if I want to go through a rebuild like we have to. The Lakers still had Kobe, still had Phil Jax, and some other nice parts post Shaq to keep them going. The Bulls are up and down and if you ask me perhaps have rebuilt too many times. They are going on the third rebuild if you are trying to infuse Ty and Noah. The Wallace thing was a good idea that failed. they thought hey were getting a warrior but they instead got a guy that was playing for a contract.

As a non ticket holder, Im not watching games anymore that much so for me to want a blow up is interesting and would actually bring me back into the fold, but thats me.
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:11 AM
Great question

2-3 years?

Let's go to the videotape. First, I would search for examples a parallel NBA franchise which has gone through a house cleaning (Team President or GM), fumigating (corporate culture - branding and player transactions to get under the average age under 24-26) and salary cap cleansing (from being over the cap to under the cap), and how much time it required.

Two examples come to mind. The post-Jordan Chicago Bulls (7 years to return to the playoffs) and the post-Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Hawks (still searching for their first playoff spot in 9 years or so).

The more appropriate question is will the of majority stakeholders of major market franchise which has NEVER looked more than 1-2 years ahead, accept long-range answers, suddenly change its entire corporate philosophy to look more than 5 years down the road?

Those stakeholders include Cablevision, as well as the fans.

The criteria for sucessful "rebuilding" is based on a return to the playoffs or The Eastern Conference Finals, not simply rebuilding for rebuilding sake.

If there is an agreed upon measure of a sucessful rebuild (ie post season play), beyond "housecleaning" "salary capping" and "fumigation" , neither the Hawks or Bulls have made much noise.

I would invite any more appropriate NBA franchise examples to make an informed assessment of time required to "rebuild" . I welcome the NBA fact-based evidence to stand corrected.
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Panos
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2/19/2008  11:17 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Great question

2-3 years?

Let's go to the videotape. First, I would search for examples a parallel NBA franchise which has gone through a house cleaning (Team President or GM), fumigating (corporate culture - branding and player transactions to get under the average age under 24-26) and salary cap cleansing (from being over the cap to under the cap), and how much time it required.

Two examples come to mind. The post-Jordan Chicago Bulls (7 years to return to the playoffs) and the post-Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Hawks (still searching for their first playoff spot in 9 years or so).

The more appropriate question is will the of majority stakeholders of major market franchise which has NEVER looked more than 1-2 years ahead, accept long-range answers, suddenly change its entire corporate philosophy to look more than 5 years down the road?

Those stakeholders include Cablevision, as well as the fans.

The criteria for sucessful "rebuilding" is based on a return to the playoffs or The Eastern Conference Finals, not simply rebuilding for rebuilding sake.

If there is an agreed upon measure of a sucessful rebuild (ie post season play), beyond "housecleaning" "salary capping" and "fumigation" , neither the Hawks or Bulls have made much noise.

I would invite any more appropriate NBA franchise examples to make an informed assessment of time required to "rebuild" . I welcome the NBA fact-based evidence to stand corrected.

How about:
Portland
Boston
Utah
Miami
New Orleans
Detroit
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:21 AM
Panos - excellent selections.

Can you provide some quick footnotes on the time required for each franchise require to "rebuild"and get back to playoffs from their last apprearance in the playoffs ?

Thank you
once a knick always a knick
TrueBlue
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2/19/2008  11:24 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Great question

2-3 years?

Let's go to the videotape. First, I would search for examples a parallel NBA franchise which has gone through a house cleaning (Team President or GM), fumigating (corporate culture - branding and player transactions to get under the average age under 24-26) and salary cap cleansing (from being over the cap to under the cap), and how much time it required.

Two examples come to mind. The post-Jordan Chicago Bulls (7 years to return to the playoffs) and the post-Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Hawks (still searching for their first playoff spot in 9 years or so).

The more appropriate question is will the of majority stakeholders of major market franchise which has NEVER looked more than 1-2 years ahead, accept long-range answers, suddenly change its entire corporate philosophy to look more than 5 years down the road?

Those stakeholders include Cablevision, as well as the fans.

The criteria for sucessful "rebuilding" is based on a return to the playoffs or The Eastern Conference Finals, not simply rebuilding for rebuilding sake.

If there is an agreed upon measure of a sucessful rebuild (ie post season play), beyond "housecleaning" "salary capping" and "fumigation" , neither the Hawks or Bulls have made much noise.

I would invite any more appropriate NBA franchise examples to make an informed assessment of time required to "rebuild" . I welcome the NBA fact-based evidence to stand corrected.



No you don't get to make some misterearl convoluted criteria standard of rebuilding.

Teams that have rebuilt and done well in the past 7-8 yrs using any method in no particular order

San Antonio
New Jersey
Orlando
Phx
Utah
Hornets
Raptors
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:29 AM
TrueBlue - you must have some criteria to define "rebuilding".

I used making the playoffs as a criteria. Some might use winning a championship as a criteria. Still others would be happy simply to see a team of guys under 23 and call it a day. What is yours?

I ask again, for the purposes of making an informed assissment of how much time to expect, how many years elapsed for each of those franchises you list - between playoff appearances, while they were rebuilding?

San Antonio
New Jersey
Orlando
Phx
Utah
Hornets
Raptors

Thank You
once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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2/19/2008  11:33 AM
I'm with Earl on this one. Rebuilding is such a vague term. To me, rebuilding occurs anytime you change your core. Whether that is with young guys, old guys etc, you are still rebuilding your core.

Regardless the Knicks really need to rid this organization of almost everyone. We have to get this stench of losing away from us and bring in some guys that have won in the past.
I just hope that people will like me
MS
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2/19/2008  11:39 AM
Just becuase GM's don't understand how to do their jobs doesn't mean that rebuilding can't be done quickly.

Look at the Bulls, they have a front court of artest, brand and miller and decided to move two quality starters for Jalen Rose and then trade a 20 10 guy for Tyson Chandler who needed five years to develop. Therefor it took them 7 years. They blew two chances to get Gasol and Garnett, made an awful trade for Chandler and risky signing for walllace.

Orlando and Cleveland just blew shots to win championships because they have GM's that shouldn't be employed.

Ferry rushed and gave big money to Hughes, Marshal, Jones, etc and ruined any chance Lebron has to ever win in Cleveland regardless of their fluke run last year.

Orlando could have made a deal that was on the table McGrady for Joe Johnson and Marion before he was shipped to the Rockets going into Howards rookie year, but instead took the worse deal and then move Gooden, Varejo for Tony Battie. Rebuilding would have taken two years, but short sighted GM's rush to make things happen. Much like they did with Lewis who isn't as good as hedo, they did it will nelson and now they are screwed.

The Bobcats, when you let Jordan make any basketball related decisions you're team is going to fail. How can you be the best player ever and make that Jason Richardson trade, Carroll signing, Nazar trade and drafting adam morrison.

The Knicks could have been rebuilt very quickly had they made the right selection amare, boozer, prince etc and not traded ewing for **** parts. Rebuilding isn't as tough as many make it out to be especially dealing with some of the gms around the league.
joec32033
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2/19/2008  11:40 AM
As long as they play hard and leave it all on the court, you can rebuild here.
~You can't run from who you are.~
misterearl
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2/19/2008  11:45 AM
Just becuase GM's don't understand how to do their jobs doesn't mean that rebuilding can't be done quickly."

"MS - you stated the Bulls required 7 years. So far no one else has provided any examples of the number of years required to "rebuild" using a performance standard as the criteria.

Can you provide one NBA example of a "quick" rebuild? How many years did it take?

Just one.

once a knick always a knick
Bippity10
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2/19/2008  11:48 AM
The key to rebuilding is to find one or two guys to build around. Once you have that you at least put yourself in position to have some good luck. But if you aren't in position to acquire that player than you are wasting your time. A high pick this year could be a start. Making a trade so that we can fight for an 8th seed at this point is counterproductive in my mind.

The Knicks never won a title with Ewing. But at least by acquiring him they always put themselves in position for success. That I can live with. The current situation of winning 23 and 33 games and not putting ourselves in position to acquire that superstar is excruciating.
I just hope that people will like me
GKFv2
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2/19/2008  11:49 AM
The whole "you can't rebuild in NY" is a myth generated by none other than the Knicks.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Bippity10
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2/19/2008  11:50 AM
Posted by GKFv2:

The whole "you can't rebuild in NY" is a myth generated by none other than the Knicks.

yup
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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2/19/2008  11:52 AM
The truth is we have turned over our core at least 3 times since Ewing left. We have also replaced 100 coaches. It's semantics but we are currently rebuilding. We just aren't calling it that. The problem is that we aren't following traditional steps? We are trying to rebuild around late round draft picks and players that have never won before. Now I never say never(except for in the prior sentence and twice in this one) so using the current model we could somehow win. But the odds are..........

Time to find better odds. High picks and bring in leaders to show them the way.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 19-02-2008 11:53 AM]
I just hope that people will like me
Can you rebuild in NY?

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