[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

"Did You Say Yoots?"
Author Thread
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
2/17/2008  11:15 AM
Knicks haven't drafted future All-Star since 1987

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/ny-spknix175580542feb17%2C0%2C4662374.story

Don't blame Isiah for this one

Though a lot of the Knicks' current woes are laid upon Isiah Thomas' shoulders, this is obviously a trend that started well before he arrived. Three players selected for tonight's All-Star Game - Portland's Brandon Roy, New Orleans' Chris Paul and Orlando's Dwight Howard - were drafted during Thomas' tenure, but the Knicks didn't have a first-round pick when Howard was drafted in '04 (that went to Phoenix in the Stephon Marbury trade) and Paul was taken fourth overall in '05, before the Knicks chose Channing Frye at No. 8. The Knicks would have had a shot at Roy, however, in '06 had Thomas not yielded two lottery picks to the Chicago Bulls as part of the widely criticized Eddy Curry trade.

Thomas has selected role-player types in the draft rather than making an attempt to bring in a high-end player or fill future needs, such as at point guard. In his only lottery choice, he took Frye over Andrew Bynum because, he admits, he didn't think Bynum - 17 at the time he was drafted and the youngest player ever to participate in an NBA game at 18 years, six days - could develop in front of demanding New Yorkers. (Bynum instead has developed in front of an even more demanding Kobe Bryant.)

But this isn't only about whom the Knicks didn't get as much as it's about what they haven't done with the players they did get.

Most scouts will say a team's method of developing a player is just as critical as the method of making the choice on draft day. Thomas is quick to point out how much David Lee has progressed since he was taken with the last pick of the first round in 2005. But for the Knicks to take credit for Lee's development would be to minimize the real key factor: Lee's personal determination to make himself a better player on his own amid a culture of chaos that has engulfed this team throughout his first three NBA seasons.

"I kind of had to figure out what I wanted to stand for as a player and as an individual, not just stuff on the court but off the court," said Lee, the MVP of the Rookie Challenge last year. "Me, I want to be known as a guy that outworks everybody, a guy that is very competitive and wants us to win every game. Really, I just focus on every action I do when I'm at practice, off the court, getting your rest. Everything plays into that. If you do that, stuff that may be going on around us, it doesn't matter. It's just about staying true to that image I want to have."

For some others, the individual drive needs constant attention. Thomas made reference to his controversial 2006 first-round pick, Renaldo Balkman, going "MIA" for a few games when the energetic forward was buried on the bench. Balkman's reply: "I don't know what he's talking about." Mardy Collins, also a first-round choice in 2006, has gone from a starter one day to a "Did Not Play-Coach's Decision" the next, with little to no explanation. Rookie Wilson Chandler only now is starting to see token playing time. Most Knicks fans probably don't know what number is on Randolph Morris' jersey because they rarely see him in it.

Need to develop development

The rookies and young players typically hang together. And they generally get to the arena at the same time and warm up together, before the veterans. But to anyone who has spent time watching how teams conduct their pregame rituals, it is apparent that the Knicks spend less time and emphasis on drilling and developing their young players.

Before one road game this season, a player development coach who had just worked his players through some intense pregame drills looked down at the Knicks' end of the court. Three veterans sat along the courtside seats and chatted while a few young players did some routine shooting. One Knicks assistant coach came out with a cup of coffee in hand.

"What's going on down there?" the opposing coach wondered.

This is not an indictment of the Knicks' current player development coach, Greg Brittenham, who has been in the organization for 17 seasons. Brittenham often is sweating by the time he's done with warm-ups, but he generally seems to work harder than some of the players he's warming up. He and the other assistants also are doing most of their work before the head coach, Thomas, arrives at the arena. The players know it.

Chandler, along with Lee, is generally among the first players on the court for pregame work. In this lost season in which he rarely plays, he was asked if he ever felt that settling for being on time would be good enough. "Obviously," he said, "it comes to mind."

Collins, who learned about having a good work ethic when he played for John Chaney at Temple, said lazy tendencies creep in, especially when you feel lost in the shuffle. "There's times you feel like that, but you've got to realize doing nothing is not going to benefit you at all," he said. "I'd rather get in there and work out rather than just sit around and not do nothing at all. I've got good people around me, good agents, family, they all try to tell me to stay ready. Even the days I don't feel like it, I still get in there."

Blame Isiah for this, though...

There was a time in this franchise when that motivation came straight from the head coach. Pat Riley used to order Charlie Ward and Monty Williams to go through three hours of work per day with then-assistant Jeff Van Gundy in 1994-95. Riley gave the rookies two days off a week. "It's been tough," Williams said back then during a season in which he rarely played on the veteran-laden team. "They expect perfection 110 percent each way."

Thomas' expectations vary so much that none is taken seriously anymore. In training camp he gave each player a copy of the Wally Pipp story, which was supposed to be a warning that there were young players on the roster whom he had no hesitation about promoting over any veteran. But only Lee and Nate Robinson, both in their third seasons, have seen consistent playing time.

"If we were playing better and had we started off better, they would have had the opportunity for more court time," Thomas said. "If your team's playing better, you can take more chances with the younger guys. But in the situation we're in now, you're trying to win as many games as you possibly can."

So much for Wally Pipp.
once a knick always a knick
AUTOADVERT
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
2/17/2008  11:17 AM
So just because the GMs before IT were bad draft wise, somehow IT gets a pass for not drafting all stars, too?

Aside from the fact that he messed up in so many other ways.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/17/2008  11:30 AM
Posted by misterearl:


Need to develop development

The rookies and young players typically hang together. And they generally get to the arena at the same time and warm up together, before the veterans. But to anyone who has spent time watching how teams conduct their pregame rituals, it is apparent that the Knicks spend less time and emphasis on drilling and developing their young players.

Before one road game this season, a player development coach who had just worked his players through some intense pregame drills looked down at the Knicks' end of the court. Three veterans sat along the courtside seats and chatted while a few young players did some routine shooting. One Knicks assistant coach came out with a cup of coffee in hand.

"What's going on down there?" the opposing coach wondered.

This is not an indictment of the Knicks' current player development coach, Greg Brittenham, who has been in the organization for 17 seasons. Brittenham often is sweating by the time he's done with warm-ups, but he generally seems to work harder than some of the players he's warming up. He and the other assistants also are doing most of their work before the head coach, Thomas, arrives at the arena. The players know it.

Chandler, along with Lee, is generally among the first players on the court for pregame work. In this lost season in which he rarely plays, he was asked if he ever felt that settling for being on time would be good enough. "Obviously," he said, "it comes to mind."

Collins, who learned about having a good work ethic when he played for John Chaney at Temple, said lazy tendencies creep in, especially when you feel lost in the shuffle. "There's times you feel like that, but you've got to realize doing nothing is not going to benefit you at all," he said. "I'd rather get in there and work out rather than just sit around and not do nothing at all. I've got good people around me, good agents, family, they all try to tell me to stay ready. Even the days I don't feel like it, I still get in there."

Blame Isiah for this, though...

There was a time in this franchise when that motivation came straight from the head coach. Pat Riley used to order Charlie Ward and Monty Williams to go through three hours of work per day with then-assistant Jeff Van Gundy in 1994-95. Riley gave the rookies two days off a week. "It's been tough," Williams said back then during a season in which he rarely played on the veteran-laden team. "They expect perfection 110 percent each way."

Thomas' expectations vary so much that none is taken seriously anymore. In training camp he gave each player a copy of the Wally Pipp story, which was supposed to be a warning that there were young players on the roster whom he had no hesitation about promoting over any veteran. But only Lee and Nate Robinson, both in their third seasons, have seen consistent playing time.

"If we were playing better and had we started off better, they would have had the opportunity for more court time," Thomas said. "If your team's playing better, you can take more chances with the younger guys. But in the situation we're in now, you're trying to win as many games as you possibly can."

So much for Wally Pipp.

This entire section is the biggest indictment i have ever read of this organization. what a joke. what a pathetic pathetic joke.

we've been screwed since Van Gundy and Checketts left, we're run by lazy idiots and we wonder why our players play like lazy idiots. they're just following the example set.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 17-02-2008 11:32 AM]
¿ △ ?
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
2/17/2008  11:34 AM
simrud - I don't think the article was giving Isiah a "pass" for much, if anything. The statement about the years since Mark Jackson in 1987 was simply stating a fact.

The most critical point the writer attempts to pursue is the erosion of the team culture which has led to not only questionable picks, but the daily protocol for game preparation, and cameo minutes, which has stunted the growth of the younger players.

For example, the best time to provide game opportunity is not just during garbage time, but during those select occasions when the individual performance can be measured against first line competition.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
2/17/2008  11:38 AM
crzymdups - given that a new Cablevision/MSG regime is being contemplated as we trade notes, in your opinion - are there more than two yoots on the roster that can be salvaged if motivated and provided the opportunity to grow?

once a knick always a knick
crzymdups
Posts: 52018
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/1/2004
Member: #671
USA
2/17/2008  11:44 AM
Posted by misterearl:

crzymdups - given that a new Cablevision/MSG regime is being contemplated as we trade notes, in your opinion - are there more than two yoots on the roster that can be salvaged if motivated and provided the opportunity to grow?

i'd keep DLee, Nate, Balkman, Mardy and even Chandler.

they're all good eggs. Isiah has done a solid job drafting, when he hasn't traded picks away. it's everything else we know about that explains why he should be fired. and if this is true - if our pre-game drills are really this pathetic... ugh...

i hope you're right about a new regime. we need a total regime change. i really hope you're right about colangelo being involved.
¿ △ ?
Siar617
Posts: 21459
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2007
Member: #1742
USA
2/17/2008  11:44 AM
maybe thomas just wants to tank and knows if he takes the vets out we'll win to many games

i personally think the young guys could beat the vets 7 games out of seven
jesus617 walks
misterearl
Posts: 38786
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/16/2004
Member: #799
USA
2/17/2008  12:06 PM
>>i really hope you're right about colangelo being involved.

crzy - I don't know any more than you know where any subtle Colangelo discussions are involved. If what Berman reported is true about his willingness to consider New York, and the tampering rules don't kick in, he would be an intriguing candidate.

I miss the Summer League roster:

1. G Nate
2. G Nichols (insert 2008 draft pick here)
3. F Balkman
4. F Chandler
5. C Randolph Morris
6. injured Mardy Collins
7. (David Lee of course)

that's seven willing and able bodies for 2008-09 right there

once a knick always a knick
Siar617
Posts: 21459
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/15/2007
Member: #1742
USA
2/17/2008  12:14 PM
that is a nice roster need to keep jc and curry though i wouldn't mind seeing curry come off the bench stephs expiring deal should land us a good player if not a pick
hell we could just cut him and let it come off the books
a new gm will not really do much
jesus617 walks
BlueSeats
Posts: 27272
Alba Posts: 41
Joined: 11/6/2005
Member: #1024

2/17/2008  1:02 PM
That's a very double faced article. On the one hand it says "don't blame Isiah" but then it immediately goes about entailing the lazy culture and inconsistent minutes. It's primary premise in defense of Isiah is that it's been a long time since a former GM selected an all-star too; but in the case of Grunfeld we were a perennial playoff team with accordingly low picks, and there is no defense for Layden, a horrible GM, but neither is a bad predecessor an excuse for Isiah who oversaw a perennial lottery team and traded lottery picks for veteran busts, and under-developed the youth.

4 wasted years right after the former 4 wasted years.
nixluva
Posts: 56258
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/5/2004
Member: #758
USA
2/17/2008  1:50 PM
I would feel a lot better about things if Isiah was actually looking to develop our young talent. It seems to me that these are the very players we needed to enlist in order to help improve as a team. It has always been the group of youngsters that came off the bench to get us back in games. They showed in Summer League that they were willing hustle, defend, share the ball and run. You look at how hard guys like Lee, Nate, Balkman and Mardy play and I believe that if given a chance Chandler and Morris would adopt a similar mentality to the game. You have to provide an environment that fosters that kind of effort and commitment. This is what we've missed since JVG left. He wasn't the greatest coach, but he maximized effort.

Isiah sent so many wrong messages. Letting Steph play after leaving the team. Letting Q continue to play when he was awful. Letting Curry start, removing him briefly and then letting him start without EARNING it with better effort. You have to take a stand at some point on principle and if you don't players will lose respect for you as a leader.

Now the only good news is that Isiah hasn't traded our draft pick, so at least we can be the beneficiary of the lottery this time. This is our chance to bring in a stud to build around so it's a very critical year. I just hope Isiah doesn't mess this up, cuz it doesn't look like he's going anywhere thanks to Dolan. By mess it up, I mean make a bad trade. I still think he's capable of making a solid pick in the draft. Regardless of all his other flaws I think he can work the draft. However it's best for the team for Dolan to bring in a new GM before the draft, but that seems like a pipedream at this point.
BasketballJones
Posts: 31973
Alba Posts: 19
Joined: 7/16/2002
Member: #290
USA
2/17/2008  2:48 PM
Leaving Isiah aside for the moment, the article rings true for me, and it's something I've been frustrated by for a long time.

It's something we always return to - it starts at the top. We have an owner who admittedly doesn't know basketball, but won't delegate to a competent president and gm. He should at least be able to look at the successful teams around the league and see what they are doing differently from the Knicks.

Instead he wants to blaze his own trail, experimenting with unproven GMs like Layden and Thomas. Then he creates constraints for them. "Bring in good-character guys" to Layden. "Get us back to the playoffs" to Thomas. No long term plan, no acknowledgment of basketball realities. Always going for the quick fix, the flashy move. Dolan doesn't have the talent or imagination to blaze a new trail; he needs to follow a known procedure for attaining success.

Hire a good, proven GM and delegate the authority to make decisions without interference.
https:// It's not so hard.
BigRedDog
Posts: 22226
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
2/17/2008  4:17 PM
How about this?-- not one starter on the knicks was drafted by them. With all their high picks from sucking all these years. Pathetic drafting. WE NEED A CHANGE!!! COLANGELO--now.
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
2/17/2008  4:18 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

That's a very double faced article. On the one hand it says "don't blame Isiah" but then it immediately goes about entailing the lazy culture and inconsistent minutes. It's primary premise in defense of Isiah is that it's been a long time since a former GM selected an all-star too; but in the case of Grunfeld we were a perennial playoff team with accordingly low picks, and there is no defense for Layden, a horrible GM, but neither is a bad predecessor an excuse for Isiah who oversaw a perennial lottery team and traded lottery picks for veteran busts, and under-developed the youth.

4 wasted years right after the former 4 wasted years.

exactly... that lack of youth development on this team starts from the top... Isiah is a clown, guys like lee and balkman and nate have developed by working hard on their own.. Isiah is so two faced, and so is this article..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
GKFv2
Posts: 26752
Alba Posts: 114
Joined: 1/16/2007
Member: #1259
USA
2/17/2008  4:26 PM
The day Cablevision sells to Time Warner will be the day of celebration.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
Allanfan20
Posts: 35947
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #542
USA
2/17/2008  4:28 PM
^Why? How do you expect Time Warner to be so much better?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
GKFv2
Posts: 26752
Alba Posts: 114
Joined: 1/16/2007
Member: #1259
USA
2/17/2008  4:32 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

^Why? How do you expect Time Warner to be so much better?

I don't know if they'll be better but I have a pretty good feeling that you can't get any worse than this.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
franco12
Posts: 34069
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
2/17/2008  4:48 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>i really hope you're right about colangelo being involved.

crzy - I don't know any more than you know where any subtle Colangelo discussions are involved. If what Berman reported is true about his willingness to consider New York, and the tampering rules don't kick in, he would be an intriguing candidate.

I miss the Summer League roster:

1. G Nate
2. G Nichols (insert 2008 draft pick here)
3. F Balkman
4. F Chandler
5. C Randolph Morris
6. injured Mardy Collins
7. (David Lee of course)

that's seven willing and able bodies for 2008-09 right there

all during summer league- I said I'd rather watch this squad play in the regular season- and that goes for the guys whose names I've forgotten who probably aren't in any league right now- because that unit played as a team.

You put that squad in the NBA and while I don't expect they'd win more than 20 games, and our knicks might not, they'd play hard every game, and they'd play as a unit.
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
2/17/2008  4:49 PM
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by Allanfan20:

^Why? How do you expect Time Warner to be so much better?

I don't know if they'll be better but I have a pretty good feeling that you can't get any worse than this.


Time warner is not much better if better at all....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
GKFv2
Posts: 26752
Alba Posts: 114
Joined: 1/16/2007
Member: #1259
USA
2/17/2008  4:52 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by GKFv2:
Posted by Allanfan20:

^Why? How do you expect Time Warner to be so much better?

I don't know if they'll be better but I have a pretty good feeling that you can't get any worse than this.

Time warner is not much better if better at all....

You don't stick with crap just because the next thing could also be crap. If TW sucks too, at least we know they're a conglomerate who has a history of selling franchises after a short period of time.
Thank you, Rick Brunson.
"Did You Say Yoots?"

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy