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Franchise Players On Teams That Are Better As Role Players
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playa2
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1/8/2008  8:57 AM
Some players are just meant to be role players to superstars but have been giving the opportunity to lead teams.

1) Joe Johnson. He's a good overall player, shoots, defend and is a really good passer, but he's definitely not a leader.

2) Mike Redd. I don't think he is the player I would want to build my franchise around because when his shot is off, the Bucks stink and his shot must be off an awful lot because right now, they stink.

3) Kevin Durant. Yeah I know he's still a rookie, but if they don't pair this kid with a legitimate big man, he will never carry this team any where. It would be some what similar to the Redd situation. He's one dimensional and has a terrible shot selection.

Anybody other player you know of in a similar situation?
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Bonn1997
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1/8/2008  9:10 AM
Anyone not named Garnett, Lebron, Wade, or Duncan
TMS
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1/8/2008  9:21 AM
good thread... last year all i kept hearing was how Durant would be the next KG & i'd disagree saying he would be more of a jumpshooting tweener in the same mold as Rashard Lewis... it's apparent so far that he's not a strong rebounder & he doesn't play any defense or block shots because he stays on the perimeter looking to sink his jumpshot all the time... for a rookie he's scoring a lot of points, but he's also shooting a poor 40% from the field & takes way too many ill advised shots as you eluded to... i completely agree w/u that he's got a ways to learn the game... just like u mentioned, i don't see how he's ever going to grow into a real franchise calibre talent until he gets the right players around him to accentuate his strengths... being only 19 yo he's got a long road ahead & room to improve obviously, but the comparisons to KG were pretty off base... they're nothing alike.


in terms of other teams' franchise guys who are better off as role players, i will say T-Mac fits the bill... he's not a leader but they expect him to lead... he's a scorer, plain & simple, just like his cousin Vince... he needs a guy like Jason Kidd to play alongside... imagine if he were to join the Suns & play alongside Steve Nash & Amare... he'd be incredible.
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TMS
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1/8/2008  9:22 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Anyone not named Garnett, Lebron, Wade, or Duncan

what about Kobe, Nash, Dwight Howard, Nowitzki, Kidd, Paul, Deron Williams, etc.?
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nysportsfan11
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1/8/2008  10:14 AM
There is a difference between a franchise player and a superstar. There is only one franchise player in this league today and his name is Tim Duncan. LeBron is close, KG's never been clutch enough to be a franchise player and prefers not to be one anyway. Wade is a superstar but overrated once you try and call him a franchise player and Kobe may well be the best individual player on the planet, but he's not a franchise player. He absolutely has the skill to be one, but lacks the mentality.

Kareem was a franchise player. Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Isiah and Oscar were franchise players. Duncan is the only one on that level.
TMS
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1/8/2008  10:25 AM
Posted by nysportsfan11:

There is a difference between a franchise player and a superstar. There is only one franchise player in this league today and his name is Tim Duncan. LeBron is close, KG's never been clutch enough to be a franchise player and prefers not to be one anyway. Wade is a superstar but overrated once you try and call him a franchise player and Kobe may well be the best individual player on the planet, but he's not a franchise player. He absolutely has the skill to be one, but lacks the mentality.

Kareem was a franchise player. Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Isiah and Oscar were franchise players. Duncan is the only one on that level.

completely disagree with you here... IMO being a franchise player doesn't necessarily entail leading one's franchise to a championship, which seems to me is the standard which you're using to define what a franchise player is.

KG is easily a franchise player because he leads & is the best player on his respective team & would be on most others... same goes for Lebron, Nash, Nowitzki, Kobe & some others.

A superstar is any player that puts up bigtime #'s & helps to put fans in the seats, whether he's a leader on his team or not... Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Vince Carter, T-Mac, Marion... these guys are all superstar players but not necessarily franchise guys.

2 players that are exceptions to the above are Amare & Yao... they are no doubt franchise players but they don't necessarily lead their franchises.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-08-2008 07:29 AM]
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SupremeCommander
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1/8/2008  10:39 AM
Posted by TMS:

good thread... last year all i kept hearing was how Durant would be the next KG & i'd disagree saying he would be more of a jumpshooting tweener in the same mold as Rashard Lewis... it's apparent so far that he's not a strong rebounder & he doesn't play any defense or block shots because he stays on the perimeter looking to sink his jumpshot all the time... for a rookie he's scoring a lot of points, but he's also shooting a poor 40% from the field & takes way too many ill advised shots as you eluded to... i completely agree w/u that he's got a ways to learn the game... just like u mentioned, i don't see how he's ever going to grow into a real franchise calibre talent until he gets the right players around him to accentuate his strengths... being only 19 yo he's got a long road ahead & room to improve obviously, but the comparisons to KG were pretty off base... they're nothing alike.


in terms of other teams' franchise guys who are better off as role players, i will say T-Mac fits the bill... he's not a leader but they expect him to lead... he's a scorer, plain & simple, just like his cousin Vince... he needs a guy like Jason Kidd to play alongside... imagine if he were to join the Suns & play alongside Steve Nash & Amare... he'd be incredible.

Durant is a SG, maybe SF... I don't know why people would compare him to KG. That is completely senseless.

As for the rush to indict the kid, he's a rookie!!! He's going to be a stud and he is having a decent season. I mean, even KG couldn't get the Wolves very far by himself... and right now Durant is by himself or with other rookies. Hes averaging 20 points, 4 boards, and 2 assists as a 19 or 20 year-old rookie. Yes, his FG% needs to improve, but he already is doing a lot of good things in this league and he would be--without a doubt--the Knicks best SG or SF if he came to the team TODAY.

Let's give the kid a chance and see where he is at when he can legally drink, then at during his mid 20s

[Edited by - supremecommander on 01-08-2008 10:41 AM]
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TMS
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1/8/2008  10:45 AM
i wasn't rushing to judge anything about Durant other than saying he's nothing like a KG type player... i thought i just made that point clear... he's a 19 yo kid & has lots of room to improve like i mentioned... but in terms of style of play he's nothing like KG.
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tkf
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1/8/2008  10:46 AM
Joe Johnson is a leader. He needs another player with him that has equal talent or better. Joe is clutch and plays both ends....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SupremeCommander
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1/8/2008  10:47 AM
My point is not many shooting guards play like KG, so its faulty comparison regardless of his size. Durant needs to shoot better than Jamal Crawford percentages to become an elite player though.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
TMS
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1/8/2008  10:50 AM
Posted by SupremeCommander:

My point is not many shooting guards play like KG, so its faulty comparison regardless of his size. Durant needs to shoot better than Jamal Crawford percentages to become an elite player though.

exactly... i agree, which is why i was refuting those comparisons whenever they'd pop up... & yeah, he needs to shoot a higher percentage & take better shots to take the next step in his progression... that's pretty much what playa was eluding to.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
SupremeCommander
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1/8/2008  10:54 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by SupremeCommander:

My point is not many shooting guards play like KG, so its faulty comparison regardless of his size. Durant needs to shoot better than Jamal Crawford percentages to become an elite player though.

exactly... i agree, which is why i was refuting those comparisons whenever they'd pop up... & yeah, he needs to shoot a higher percentage & take better shots to take the next step in his progression... that's pretty much what playa was eluding to.

hahahaha... sorry man, lol, I'm hungover. I live in New Orleans and LSU won the national championship... let's just New Orleans hosting LSU (one hour away) for a BCS victory was a party and a half!! I need advil and I ran out... ugh.
DLeethal wrote: Lol Rick needs a safe space
TMS
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1/8/2008  11:03 AM
congrats on our national title dude... LSU played a great game against a great team in Ohio State... just gimme a warning next time ur drunk posting.
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Panos
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1/8/2008  11:13 AM
Posted by nysportsfan11:

There is a difference between a franchise player and a superstar. There is only one franchise player in this league today and his name is Tim Duncan. LeBron is close, KG's never been clutch enough to be a franchise player and prefers not to be one anyway. Wade is a superstar but overrated once you try and call him a franchise player and Kobe may well be the best individual player on the planet, but he's not a franchise player. He absolutely has the skill to be one, but lacks the mentality.

Kareem was a franchise player. Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Isiah and Oscar were franchise players. Duncan is the only one on that level.


What are you talking about? How do you define a franchise player?
I define it as a guy that you go get and build around as opposed to that guy being part of the complementary staff.
Bonn1997
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1/8/2008  11:37 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Anyone not named Garnett, Lebron, Wade, or Duncan

what about Kobe, Nash, Dwight Howard, Nowitzki, Kidd, Paul, Deron Williams, etc.?

If you want to win a championship, those guys should at best be your second best player (except Nash, and Dwight if he keeps this pace up).
Bonn1997
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1/8/2008  11:44 AM
Kobe's the flashiest, not the best, player in the league.
TMS
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1/8/2008  11:45 AM
Kobe should be your second best player in order to win a championship? he's the best player in the NBA dude... so in your mind there's no possible way for Kobe to ever win a championship unless some incredibly talented player comes along some day that's better than he is? u also don't think Nowitzki will ever win a title unless someone like Lebron comes to play alongside him? that doesn't make sense... both those guys are capable of leading their teams to a championship, but they can't do it alone... Dirk already has the pieces he needs to win one, but there are some tough teams that are standing in his way, much in the same way Ewing was stopped by Jordan all those years playing in the East... does that mean Ewing wasn't a franchise player either? Karl Malone wasn't a franchise player?

[Edited by - TMS on 01-08-2008 08:46 AM]
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martin
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1/8/2008  11:46 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

Kobe's the flashiest, not the best, player in the league.

I think a lot of NBA players will disagree with you.
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Bonn1997
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1/8/2008  11:46 AM
Did you delete your reply and then re-post? How did my message about Kobe (in response to your reply) appear above your reply?! Strange!
TMS
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1/8/2008  11:47 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bonn1997:

Kobe's the flashiest, not the best, player in the league.

I think a lot of NBA players will disagree with you.

I think a lot of NBA fans will disagree w/you too
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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