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How the Zach trade killed the Knicks
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King1
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1/5/2008  2:21 PM
If we dont trade for Zach this year we have a chance to make the playoffs. Instead we trade for a selfish player that has made this team worse than what it was. Curry cant play with him and Lee gets less minutes. He shoots 16 times a game and plays no defense. No one will take him in a trade, and we lose flexibility to try and sign people. I think the first two things that happen if we get a new GM is cut Marbury and Zach and start from there.
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JaydeeNYC
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1/5/2008  2:27 PM
Playoffs?

Is it really fair to blame Randolph for the Knicks downfall? Who says that he can't be traded?

Since Marbury came back the Knicks have looked alot better. Pick n Roll Offense is still his bread and butter. Curry is getting better position because of the O-Set as well. Just cause you cut them doesn't mean that you gain cap flexibility.. You'd still have to pay them.
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holfresh
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1/5/2008  2:35 PM

Amazing how one poster can post on a singular thought in every post for two straight years running...Amazing...

JohnWallace44
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1/5/2008  2:53 PM
the fact that Curry is a terrible player when he's not the focal point is not Zach's fault
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
King1
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1/5/2008  2:54 PM
Holfresh it is amazing you thinking Zach is the best player on this team? When Lee has a bad game your on here killing him but when Zach lays an egg and gets kicked out of the game your no where to be found.
4949
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1/5/2008  3:05 PM
Posted by King1:

If we dont trade for Zach this year we have a chance to make the playoffs. Instead we trade for a selfish player that has made this team worse than what it was. Curry cant play with him and Lee gets less minutes. He shoots 16 times a game and plays no defense. No one will take him in a trade, and we lose flexibility to try and sign people. I think the first two things that happen if we get a new GM is cut Marbury and Zach and start from there.

Our first mistake was when Charles passed the team off to James.
The second mistake was when he hired Scott Layden (oh' I forgot about the 100 million dollar contract Houston got for being injured and eventaully retired for the next several years).
The third was when he hired Isiah Thomas.
The fourth mistake was when Thomas brought starbury here.
The fifth mistake was when Thomas brought Curry here, giving away two draft picks to chicago, for two years in a row.
The Sixth mistake was when Thomas brought Jerome James here.

And then there's all of those in-between mistakes he's made. Another mistake was when Dolan hired Thomas not only once' but re-signed him!!! Baffling' isn't it?! Take your pick!

The point is, mistakes started years ago and we ain't been out of the woods since. That's the truth.

[Edited by - 4949 on 01-05-2008 3:07 PM]
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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1/5/2008  3:06 PM
Posted by King1:

Holfresh it is amazing you thinking Zach is the best player on this team? When Lee has a bad game your on here killing him but when Zach lays an egg and gets kicked out of the game your no where to be found.

To be honest. I would say the Zach and' Lee are probably the best we have right now, considering.
I'll never trust this' team again.
King1
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1/5/2008  3:12 PM
Holfresh you killed Lee on a MSG.com article that you cant find and no one else has seen saying that Lee said he would score 20 if he got 17 shots. Zach get ejected, suspended and saying in the papers he wonders why Isiah brought him here.
nixluva
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1/5/2008  3:13 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

the fact that Curry is a terrible player when he's not the focal point is not Zach's fault

It's actually Isiah's fault for not recognizing this. He should've still made sure the guards knew that Curry was the focal point. I've been saying it for a while, that you don't need to go crazy trying to get Zach looks, cuz he gets so many off rebounds anyway. Start with Curry and let him get established and then things would settle into a nice groove.

Zach is the one that needed to be worked in slowly. Isiah is stupid for not realizing that he had something that worked to a certain degree and when adding a new piece you don't want to totally destroy what you had and that's what he did. This of course isn't theonly issue. The other is as JaydeeNYC brought out, pick and roll is a very important part of what we need. We were a league leader in FT attempts due to our relentless attack on the rim. We had Curry, Steph, Jamal, Lee and Nate.
being more aggressive in that regard. I see that Isiah also brought back the curl play, which is GREAT for Jamal, cuz it brings him closer to the basket and he's money from there. When you have him handling the ball on the perimeter he makes too many mistakes. It's really Isiah's fault for not making sure to minimize our weaknesses by running things that we do well. Letting Steph attack the basket is his best offense. Give and go with Lee is money too. He's strong going to the rim. He could even do pick and pop with Zach and that would make him more efficient.

I gave Isiah too much credit, cuz I thought he saw the same things I did and would implement them. This is why I had high hopes for the team and that was my mistake for assuming that Isiah actually recognized these things and would go in that direction. I still believe that if he had a better scheme this team would've been in the playoff hunt in the middle of the pack.
Cash
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1/5/2008  3:18 PM
We won 33 games last season.

This season there are a number or reasons why we are worse.
1. Zeke is no longer going for an extension, and the team is not rallying behind him. The team is not coming off the larry brown season anymore, and it is not an issue to try to prove him wrong.
2. Lee is not the same player he was last year. Whether that is due to injury, due to the acquiring of Zach, due to the fact this team sucks, or a combination of all three is up for debate. However, when you decrease the effectiveness of your most efficient player(on an extremely inefficient team), you are not going to be as good.
3. Teams began double teaming Curry more and more as the season went on last year. If Curry was the focal point of the team again this season, teams would easily be able to shut him down when they wanted to.

This raises an interesting question if you are coach of the teams playing the knicks. Knowing that Eddy Curry rebounds horribly, defends horribly, and really is a liability on the court if he is not scoring, do you let him get a few easy baskets to keep him on the court more? If I was an opposing coach, I might not have my guys double team him right away and let him have a few. This just makes it more likely that Isiah will leave him on the court longer. If your lucky(and in the occassional circumstance when the knicks are in a close game) Curry is left in during the final few minutes during which you know you can shut him down with intense double teams, and you know that he is likely to miss key rebounds and play horrible defense.
holfresh
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1/5/2008  3:27 PM
Posted by King1:

Holfresh you killed Lee on a MSG.com article that you cant find and no one else has seen saying that Lee said he would score 20 if he got 17 shots. Zach get ejected, suspended and saying in the papers he wonders why Isiah brought him here.

Bro, Lee did say it and I saw it with my own eyes....I also told you it was a pregame interview, not an article on MSG.com....I am sure that many here who don't miss a beat with the Knicks saw it as well...Just ask them..I don't care enough to ask...And to correct you...Lee said he would scored 17 pts a game if he got 20 shots...


King1
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1/5/2008  3:39 PM
Well guess I will ask David. Kinda of mad because if he got 20 shots a game I would expect him to score about 22 with free throws.
EnySpree
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1/5/2008  4:00 PM
Nixluva - I agree with you bud.

Anybody remember Channing Frye? Well immediately after the zach trade I lost my load cuz finally the Knicks would have what we hoped Channing would be......same ****.....jumpshooting and a post up when we needed it, except there would be 10 rebounds per game easy. That's how it should rock. Zach should take a backseat to Curry.

Isiah went ahead and allowed Zach to take over when he doesn't have to. COACHING!!! Isiah's game plans suck.

For 3 years the Knicks have been getting destroyed by three's. If you notice coaches have their players spot up every single time especially if they are down. Isiah has not gotten his players to defend the three properly.

Anyway, Isiah had to tell the guys from day one that this was Curry's team. Dump it to him catch Zach outside where he can shoot and drive. That's where Channing sucked, he couldn't drive.

Isiah is the one. Curry is a bitch. Q is washed up and Marbs is just a pillar of bad luck and retardation.....but Isiah is the one.

Isiah has got to make his players believe. Just to compare.....Coach Pop got David Robinson to simmer his game down. He got Manu to come off the bench and start even in the playoffs. He instilled his way into Toni Parker.

Yo, why isn't Nate starting? Because Isiah never instilled his will into Nate. Nate told him he likes to shoot so Isiah said he can't play point guard. Toni Parker was total garbage coming into the league. Now he is elite. By now Nate should be elite cuz he has the talent and the balls. Tell me Manu and Craw aren't similiar players?

Isiah blew it and Im so ****in pissed. I feel in my heart this team can win. Isiah does too but he has no clue how to coach it.......

Coach Pop would have benched Q 3 years ago.....same as Jared. Those guys would have gotten buried with the whole basketball community saying" what happened to q-rich? He's still a spur? I thought he retired years ago." Fuck em....that's what Pop says to players.....Beno is good for sactown? Why did Coach Pop say **** em? Stephen Jackson? Pop said **** em'. Jackie Butler? Pop signed him then said **** em'.

Isiah Fuck you.
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Bonn1997
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1/5/2008  4:18 PM
Posted by King1:

Well guess I will ask David. Kinda of mad because if he got 20 shots a game I would expect him to score about 22 with free throws.

He's getting 1.37 points per shot this season, which amounts to 27.5 points per 20 shots. He'd probably have to chuck up some low percentage shots to get to 20 shots per game but he'd surely average way more than 17 points if shooting 20 shots.
4949
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1/5/2008  4:29 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by King1:

Well guess I will ask David. Kinda of mad because if he got 20 shots a game I would expect him to score about 22 with free throws.

He's getting 1.37 points per shot this season, which amounts to 27.5 points per 20 shots. He'd probably have to chuck up some low percentage shots to get to 20 shots per game but he'd surely average way more than 17 points if shooting 20 shots.

This points per game, per shots taken is overrated.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
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1/5/2008  4:41 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

Nixluva - I agree with you bud.

Anybody remember Channing Frye? Well immediately after the zach trade I lost my load cuz finally the Knicks would have what we hoped Channing would be......same ****.....jumpshooting and a post up when we needed it, except there would be 10 rebounds per game easy. That's how it should rock. Zach should take a backseat to Curry.

Isiah went ahead and allowed Zach to take over when he doesn't have to. COACHING!!! Isiah's game plans suck.

For 3 years the Knicks have been getting destroyed by three's. If you notice coaches have their players spot up every single time especially if they are down. Isiah has not gotten his players to defend the three properly.

Anyway, Isiah had to tell the guys from day one that this was Curry's team. Dump it to him catch Zach outside where he can shoot and drive. That's where Channing sucked, he couldn't drive.

Isiah is the one. Curry is a bitch. Q is washed up and Marbs is just a pillar of bad luck and retardation.....but Isiah is the one.

Isiah has got to make his players believe. Just to compare.....Coach Pop got David Robinson to simmer his game down. He got Manu to come off the bench and start even in the playoffs. He instilled his way into Toni Parker.

Yo, why isn't Nate starting? Because Isiah never instilled his will into Nate. Nate told him he likes to shoot so Isiah said he can't play point guard. Toni Parker was total garbage coming into the league. Now he is elite. By now Nate should be elite cuz he has the talent and the balls. Tell me Manu and Craw aren't similiar players?

Isiah blew it and Im so ****in pissed. I feel in my heart this team can win. Isiah does too but he has no clue how to coach it.......

Coach Pop would have benched Q 3 years ago.....same as Jared. Those guys would have gotten buried with the whole basketball community saying" what happened to q-rich? He's still a spur? I thought he retired years ago." Fuck em....that's what Pop says to players.....Beno is good for sactown? Why did Coach Pop say **** em? Stephen Jackson? Pop said **** em'. Jackie Butler? Pop signed him then said **** em'.

Isiah Fuck you.

I'm glad that i'm not the only one who sees this crap. How many times do I have to watch Knick guards go UNDER THE SCREEN and allow wide open jumpers? He's never really addressed how to defend the pick. It's not that hard to deal with. In a team concept you can have your big and guard stay on either side of the screener and by showing like that you're ready to slow down the guard from penetrating and you can get to him quicker. Now it's obvious that the guard will look to attack the big and take him off the dribble, so he has to be taught how to defend aggressively and force the guard to take a wider route to the basket and allow time for help to come. There are so many things we could do and in last nights game there was much better help and anticipation. On one play Jamal left his man who was cutting to the basket to help Curry stop Duncan and Duncan traveled. I couldn't believe my eyes.

It comes down to the coach's effectiveness in getting his scheme across to the players and of course having a scheme that is tailored to your players in the 1st place. You want to play the guys that do what you demand, but at a certain point you also have to adjust what you do to fit your personnel. Until Isiah figures this out, if ever, this team can't succeed.
blueNorange
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1/5/2008  5:02 PM
we should thank Z-Ro ... he's giving the Knicks the shot of getting a great player in the draft
some Knick fans accept mediocrity as excellence .... I don't!
King1
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1/5/2008  6:01 PM
Nix it is a lot coaching but a lot is the players. We have guys that cant make shots yet they still shoot them. We dont take care of the ball and no one on this team will sacrifice for the team. We have volume shooters and it is about getting thier stats than winning games
BigC
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1/5/2008  6:35 PM
So it's Zach's fault that Curry can't block shots or rebound. Is it Zach's fault Isiah can't coach? Is it Zach's fault that Stiffy Long Stocking Q can't hit an outside shot? Is it Zach's fault that Coach Eyebrows and Marbury were going at it?

This excuse that Curry is using to the media is the same excuse that he was probably telling Isiah. That why when Curry was playing bad Curry stayed in the lineup and Zach was benched. Only for Curry to be in foul trouble in the first 2 minutes of a game.
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TMS
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1/5/2008  6:52 PM
trading for Zach didn't ruin our chances to make the playoffs... this team wasn't making the playoffs with or without Zach... the problem is trading for Zach just made the cap situation even worse & did nothing to improve the balance of the roster... now we have yet another unloadable contract on the books for the foreseeable future.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
How the Zach trade killed the Knicks

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