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Zeke Is Dead Wrong About Bulls Rebuilding!
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TrueBlue
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11/2/2007  11:36 AM
I SAY UGH is dead wrong about the Bulls rebuilding 9yrs. Jordan, Pippen, and Jackson left the end of the 1997-1998 season. The Bulls made the playoffs during the 2004-2005, 2005-2006, and 2006-2007 season. With such consistency you could say their rebuild took 6yrs but wait.....The Bulls had a team ready to compete 3yrs prior when they had Brand, Miller, Artest, Hassel, & Crawford(I believe) in the fold but Krause messed the rebuild process up so in comes Paxson in April of 2003 I believe and this is what I SAY UGH should compare his rebuild to. How long did it take Paxson to get the Bulls to be consistently competitive while progressing to contenders? Looks like to me it only took Paxson 2yrs.


What about comparing ourselves to the Suns when they let Marbury go? How long did it take them? Jerry/Bryan Calngelo

What about the Raps after they let Vince go although verdict isn't quite out they still have a ton of promise? Bryan Calangelo

What about the Magic after they let T-Mac go ditto Raps verdict isn't quite out but the promise is there? Otis Smith

What about Denver after they let Dycess, Van Excel, Lafrentz go? Kiki

What about Utah after Stockton retired and they let Malone go? Miller


I SAY UGH is full of CHIT!

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 11-02-2007 10:37 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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MS
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11/2/2007  11:45 AM
Isiah knows a lot more about rebuilding than you think. Just ask the Suns, Bulls, Magic, Raptors, and Blazers.

Isiah has helped everyone of the teams get where they are today, especially the Bulls by taking two guys that don't like team basketball always want to get theirs and don't play defense. As long as your not taking on me first players and making long term signings rebuilding isn't as hard as advertised.

Rent players like; Darrell Armstrong, MgGlore, Ruben Patterson, Joe Smith, etc guys on one year deals that don't prevent you from signing or retaining players because your a ****ing idiot and gave 5 year deals to Jared and Jerome. Isiah is so limited in his knowledge of this game on the sidelines it's sickening and the fact that we have to watch this piece of **** bubble through season after season, changing plans and making excuses, whose fault is it, that he moved Nazar for Malik for two picks that he could buy, or spent 23 million to get balkman, or had to take on JYD and Baker to get a player like crawford is mind boggling. We had to give up a awful selection and frye to get rid of a contract he foolisly traded for in steve francis. This team in case any of you missed it has no future with Zach and Eddy because isiah doesn't realize that half his team is uptempo and the other half could give a **** about anything put getting inside putting their head down and trying to score.

If he had a plan such as drafting a center like Bynum instead of frye and didn't trade for eddy and and q and let us take some lumps and bumps which we did anyway with 23 and 33 wins and drafted a bg like lowry the knicks were on their way to a championship blueprint with flexibilty but he left out the fact the team should be

Bynum/Noah
Lee
Roye
Lowry

Actuall position player with defense and brains, but it takes 10 years to rebuild
nixluva
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11/2/2007  11:45 AM
You have a good point about the Bulls.

With reference to the other things you mention, it's not a fair comparison with what Isiah was facing. If you have A Melo, Bosh or Howard in place it makes things a bit easier. In Isiah's 1st year we had the #16 pick, which wouldn't have netted much and Dolan didn't want a rebuild. So when you couple that with the horrble players we had that most felt were untradeable, Isiah's taks was infinitely more difficult.
islesfan
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11/2/2007  11:48 AM
Isiah wants to use the Bulls as an example? Fine.

Fire the GM halfway through and hire someone else to do the job right.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
MS
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11/2/2007  12:01 PM
That's fine the first year he moved for Marbury, Josh Smith was on the board better than Steph and someone isiah would have likely taken. But the draft picks i mentioned were not hard picks to make lee was a great selection of course, but the others were there and logical.

He just drafts without thinking, what's best and he trades the same way. Let me get the most athletic person or the more talented guy,etc
arkrud
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11/2/2007  12:05 PM
Posted by nixluva:

You have a good point about the Bulls.

With reference to the other things you mention, it's not a fair comparison with what Isiah was facing. If you have A Melo, Bosh or Howard in place it makes things a bit easier. In Isiah's 1st year we had the #16 pick, which wouldn't have netted much and Dolan didn't want a rebuild. So when you couple that with the horrble players we had that most felt were untradeable, Isiah's taks was infinitely more difficult.

It is not an excuse when he went from bad to worth.
Throwing $400000 and 4 years into garbage is inexcusable even for muster of excuses

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JohnWallace44
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11/2/2007  12:12 PM
Posted by MS:

That's fine the first year he moved for Marbury, Josh Smith was on the board better than Steph and someone isiah would have likely taken. But the draft picks i mentioned were not hard picks to make lee was a great selection of course, but the others were there and logical.

He just drafts without thinking, what's best and he trades the same way. Let me get the most athletic person or the more talented guy,etc


Dude, Isiah is on his last legs here, but you can't say his drafts were simply "logical". He has kicked serious butt in the drafts.

His signings have been other worldly bad, and his trades have been somewhere in the middle.


Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
TrueBlue
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11/2/2007  12:21 PM
Posted by nixluva:

You have a good point about the Bulls.

With reference to the other things you mention, it's not a fair comparison with what Isiah was facing. If you have A Melo, Bosh or Howard in place it makes things a bit easier. In Isiah's 1st year we had the #16 pick, which wouldn't have netted much and Dolan didn't want a rebuild. So when you couple that with the horrble players we had that most felt were untradeable, Isiah's taks was infinitely more difficult.

Wrong Nix once again. His first mistake was trading for Marbury which IMO has set the franchise back about a good 3yrs. He should have let Layden's team bottom out. Therfore he could have had a stud during the 04 Draft. His problem was he's such an egomaniac he felt...."Ahhhh I can make an immediate loud thunderous entry into GMing by getting this team to the playoffs by trading for a Sexy Loser." Then when he trades for Marbury he gives up unprotected Lottery picks in the process. Now Nix if we would have let the team bottom out at the end of the 2003-2004 season(even if that meant trading away Houston or anyone else for pennies on the dollar do it) and the Marbury trade never happens, what would our win total have been? I say anywhere from 28-33wins if not worse. We would have had a Top 10 pick for sure and probably Top 7 pick with the possibility of hitting the lottery heading into the 04 draft. Let's say we lose the lottery, Luol Deng and Andre Iggy were probably locks for us other notables, Livingston, Devin Harris, Biendrins, Jefferson. Now depending on where our pick would have been and remember I SAY UGH is the ZEN of drafters maybe he could have swung a deal to get higher wherever they were positioned or traded down to get the player he wanted along with picking up current or future assets(picks,maybe even clearing more cap space by making a draft day trade that yr). Let's say we picked Deng as we proceed to the 2004-2005 season. We still need to be in full rebuild mode. Keep gutting the team and pick up role players galore. Let's say we finish with another less than 30 win season by the end heading into the 2005 draft, The draft that saw Milwaukee who finished with the 6th worst record land the #1 pick. We're talking here of possibly getting Bogut, Williams, Deron, Paul, Felton, Bynum(we still could of had him either way). Maybe even could have still traded for Curry depending on remaining assets, although I wouldn't have. Let's say we go point guard with the a Top 3 pick and grab Deron now we have Deron and Deng..... and so on and so forth but we'll never know because we have the worst GM in basketball.

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Nalod
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11/2/2007  1:45 PM

The Bulls got back on track when they fired Krause and reloaded using those assets for other deals.

Funny, a big part was to look in the mirror and realize that Eddy and Craw were not going to pull them up so they traded them.

Old story.

eViL
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11/2/2007  2:04 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by MS:

That's fine the first year he moved for Marbury, Josh Smith was on the board better than Steph and someone isiah would have likely taken. But the draft picks i mentioned were not hard picks to make lee was a great selection of course, but the others were there and logical.

He just drafts without thinking, what's best and he trades the same way. Let me get the most athletic person or the more talented guy,etc


Dude, Isiah is on his last legs here, but you can't say his drafts were simply "logical". He has kicked serious butt in the drafts.

His signings have been other worldly bad, and his trades have been somewhere in the middle.

I'm beginning to think that Isiah's drafts here have not been as great as some seem to think. First of all, he's usually picking in the 20's so the expectations are automatically lower. Then when his late first round pick turns out to be an above average role player type -- we all rave about it.

But in the meantime, if we don't trade for Curry -- Isiah would have had a chance at two top picks. Those picks are much tougher to make because the expectations are so much higher. Isiah is making it easy on himself by lowering expectations.

If Isiah has done a great job at anything, he's done a great job at lowering the bar. Any little positive seems monumental when it comes to the Knicks.
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BlueSeats
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11/2/2007  2:10 PM
Posted by eViL:

I'm beginning to think that Isiah's drafts here have not been as great as some seem to think. First of all, he's usually picking in the 20's so the expectations are automatically lower. Then when his late first round pick turns out to be an above average role player type -- we all rave about it.

But in the meantime, if we don't trade for Curry -- Isiah would have had a chance at two top picks. Those picks are much tougher to make because the expectations are so much higher. Isiah is making it easy on himself by lowering expectations.

If Isiah has done a great job at anything, he's done a great job at lowering the bar. Any little positive seems monumental when it comes to the Knicks.

Bingo. The climate has been so bad that when we see guys come off the bench and play hard they look like all-stars next to our big name starters. When David Lee is the best thing you have to show for yourself after 3.5 years and a enough money to land 3 men to the moon it's not exactly bragging rights.

Bippity10
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11/2/2007  2:14 PM
Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Potential there. Haven't shown much besides energy thus far. It's only years 1,2 and 3 for these guys so I'm not going to judge Isiah either way on this one. But eventually we need to see some guys besides DLee flourish in our rotation before we call the guy a guru for the Knicks.
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islesfan
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11/2/2007  2:30 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Backup, Idiot, Bust, INC., Backup, Already said, All-Star and nothing special.

All Isiah does it draft the most athletic guy and worries about basketball skill later. His drafting is completely overrated.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Panos
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11/2/2007  2:32 PM
Can we PLEASE stop saying that "Dolan didn't want a rebuild" without a shred of evidence to support it! Seriously, just make anything up, and just cuz you repeat it enough times it becomes the truth?!
eViL
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11/2/2007  2:33 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Backup, Idiot, Bust, INC., Backup, Already said, All-Star and nothing special.

All Isiah does it draft the most athletic guy and worries about basketball skill later. His drafting is completely overrated.

Let it be known that Isles gives Isiah HUGE credit for drafting a future all-star in Nichols.
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Panos
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11/2/2007  2:33 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Backup, Idiot, Bust, INC., Backup, Already said, All-Star and nothing special.

All Isiah does it draft the most athletic guy and worries about basketball skill later. His drafting is completely overrated.


Which make me wonder why he drafted Frye? He doesn't fit the mold. Bynum was more athletic. And Granger. Why Frye?

islesfan
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11/2/2007  2:37 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Backup, Idiot, Bust, INC., Backup, Already said, All-Star and nothing special.

All Isiah does it draft the most athletic guy and worries about basketball skill later. His drafting is completely overrated.


Which make me wonder why he drafted Frye? He doesn't fit the mold. Bynum was more athletic. And Granger. Why Frye?

Because when you draft in the lottery, you need to get a skilled player who can start and not just rely on athleticism, which usually only translates to being a backup and role player. He didn't have the guts to draft Bynum or Granger. Frye was the safe pick in terms of where he was slotted to go, his college experience and his current level of readiness, but anybody with a clue knew that he had "bust" written all over him. Those other guys would have taken time to develop and Isiah had no intention of waiting, despite now saying how a rebuild like this should take 9-10 years. Isiah is so full of ****.

[Edited by - islesfan on 11-02-2007 2:40 PM]
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
nixluva
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11/2/2007  2:51 PM
Posted by Panos:

Can we PLEASE stop saying that "Dolan didn't want a rebuild" without a shred of evidence to support it! Seriously, just make anything up, and just cuz you repeat it enough times it becomes the truth?!
The man came out and said it on more than one occasion. Besides his very public stance, you need but only look at what we had in H2O and KT and you can imagine that he likely felt we could add a player or 2 and make another playoff run. Why would he not want to give it a serious try when he knew that he had big money on the table left for H2O. He didn't know that his legs weren't going to heal. He had just come off some really big years. There's just no way that anyone can look at the way MSG had done things up to that point and not realize that Dolan would want to continue to look to revamp and make a go with the vets. We never really did anything with the draft and our modus operandi was to get vets and try to keep the team in playoff contention. Keep the fans coming and the high ticket prices rolling.
BlueSeats
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11/2/2007  3:07 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Bippity10:

Lee, Nate, Frye, Chandler, Balkman, Robinson, Nichols and the rest.

Backup, Idiot, Bust, INC., Backup, Already said, All-Star and nothing special.

All Isiah does it draft the most athletic guy and worries about basketball skill later. His drafting is completely overrated.


Which make me wonder why he drafted Frye? He doesn't fit the mold. Bynum was more athletic. And Granger. Why Frye?


He was in a hurry to validate his bad trades with wins and thought Frye would help in that endeavor sooner than Bynum.

IOW, he chose the wrong rebuild approach in the beginning, and compounded the mistake rather than correcting it. It's also known as throwing good money after bad.
TrueBlue
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11/2/2007  3:44 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by Panos:

Can we PLEASE stop saying that "Dolan didn't want a rebuild" without a shred of evidence to support it! Seriously, just make anything up, and just cuz you repeat it enough times it becomes the truth?!
The man came out and said it on more than one occasion. Besides his very public stance, you need but only look at what we had in H2O and KT and you can imagine that he likely felt we could add a player or 2 and make another playoff run. Why would he not want to give it a serious try when he knew that he had big money on the table left for H2O. He didn't know that his legs weren't going to heal. He had just come off some really big years. There's just no way that anyone can look at the way MSG had done things up to that point and not realize that Dolan would want to continue to look to revamp and make a go with the vets. We never really did anything with the draft and our modus operandi was to get vets and try to keep the team in playoff contention. Keep the fans coming and the high ticket prices rolling.


Because part of a GM's job is assessing the current team's peak. That's why Danny busted up the Celtic duo of Pierce and Walker he saw the team peaked and wasn't going to make any big splashed in the playoffs. That's why Colangelo busted up the Suns. That's why Paxson busted up the Bulls. Seriously how good was the Knicks team going to be with Kurt and H20 as the centerpieces? Yes they were good players but ones who were on the downside. We also F'N backed into the playoffs that season only for it to show with an embarrassing sweep by the Nets. And if the plan was to make the playoffs he despicably failed at this because we haven't done so with exception to the half season as GM. Now the same fans want to give him credit for amassing talent when he could of amassed better talent had he gone the other route while trimming the payroll drastically.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Zeke Is Dead Wrong About Bulls Rebuilding!

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