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Hollinger: Nix Should Play Like Utah
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nixluva
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9/26/2007  12:39 PM
http://www.nysun.com/article/63420?page_no=1

He compares the personnel and make a good case for the Knicks adopting a similar style of play:

Knicks Need To Model Their Offense After Utah's Basketball
By JOHN HOLLINGER
September 26, 2007

While the Anucha Browne Saunders trial dominates the news, training camp is quietly sneaking up on us: Both the Knicks and Nets roll out the basketballs next week. And when Isiah Thomas isn't rhapsodizing about who can and can't call other people "b—," I'm hoping he's figuring out how to get the ball into his revamped frontcourt.

In particular, I'm wondering if he's put in any calls to Jerry Sloan this summer. Because it seems to me what Utah does on offense is exactly what the Knicks should aim to do with their attack.

Now, at first glance you may not think there's much similarity between the two sides. Certainly their organizations' styles are radically different: The Knicks are flash-and-dash spotlight hogs, while the Jazz are strictly meat and potatoes. The Knicks tend to make excuses, and the Jazz blame themselves. Also, the Jazz occasionally win.

But despite the disparities in approach, the teams they've built are remarkably similar. Let's backtrack a little so I can explain. Last season, three teams displayed the attributes of what I'll call a "heavy post offense." These six attributes are:

• An average to low rate of 3-point attempt

• An average to high field-goal percentage

• An extremely high rate of freethrow attempts

• An extremely high rate of offensive rebounds

• A high rate of turnovers

• An average to slow pace

Why are those attributes associated with running a post-heavy offense? Think about it. Teams that cram the ball inside tend to be taking most of their shots at or near the basket. That means a bunch of things.
For instance, it means they'll take fewer 3s, on average, and a lot more 2s. It means they should shoot a higher percentage since they're taking close-in shots. It means they'll get a high rate of offensive boards, since their post players tend to be their best players and since they're close to the basket when they release a shot. It means they'll get a ton of turnovers because they're cramming it into crowded spaces in the paint all the time. And it means they'll play slow, in order to set up their post players on the block.

As I mentioned, three teams met those criteria last season: the Jazz, Knicks, and Magic. In each case it's not hard to see why. The Knicks had Eddy Curry bulldozing people in the paint and David Lee coming on for support. Utah had two All-Star frontcourt players in Carlos Boozer and Mehmet Okur. And the Magic had manchild Dwight Howard dominating in the middle.

Because of the Knicks' off-season moves, they should get even more extreme in this respect. Zach Randolph is arguably even more of a beast down low than Curry, and that means the Knicks will spend most of the game pounding it inside.

Here's why imitating is so tempting: The Jazz do the same thing and are way better at it than the Knicks and Magic. Utah ranked third in the NBA in Offensive Efficiency last season (my measure of a team's points scored per 100 possessions), as they were better at minimizing the inevitable turnovers than the others and even more dominant on the glass. Contrast that to the Knicks, who ranked 17th, or the Magic, who were 22nd, and it's easy to see why the Jazz made the Western Conference finals while the other two teams were golfing by early May.

Talent obviously plays a role. Boozer may not be as big or powerful as Curry is, but he's a much better athlete and a far more refined basketball player; Utah also has a fantastic point guard in Deron Williams to get him the rock.

But once you add Randolph to the picture, are the Jazz really any better off talent-wise? Zach and Eddy make for an overpowering interior combo, and it's not like Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford are so deficient that the Knicks can't compete with them.

I would argue one of the big differences is in the method of attack. Utah's style is basically a game of human bumper cars, with one screen after another inevitably leading to a defensive breakdown and Boozer catching the ball five feet from the hoop. The entry pass obviously is much easier in that case, and that's why Utah's turnover rate was much lower than either New York's or Orlando's (the Magic led the league in turnover per possession; the Knicks were second).

New York's approach last year was to plant Curry down in one spot on the block and try to throw it in to him, either by from the wing or, if he was fronted, rotating the ball around the perimeter until somebody had a clean entry pass. While New York's style has the advantage of being able to call plays specifically for Curry to get the ball, Utah's system seems to create more clean looks for its stars over the course of a game.

That's especially true now that Randolph is in town. He and Curry can use their huge frames to screen for each other and then roll toward the rim, where they're impossible to stop once they get a head of steam. Secondary players can take advantage of this as well — for instance, wouldn't it be nice to let Quentin Richardson get a couple close-in looks off downlow screens the way the Jazz do for Matt Harpring?

Best of all, Utah's system helps mask one of their big weaknesses — a lack of deep shooters. The Knicks' plan to isolate Curry and space the floor works really well if the guys around him can burn defenses from deep. If it works, great — that's how San Antonio kills people. But if not, it only creates more crowds for Curry to deal with.

But in a five-man, flowing, motion offense like Utah's the defenders spend more time preoccupied with their own man's movement and fighting through the myriad screens. So you'll see fewer defenders abandoning Jared Jeffries to double Curry before the ball has even been passed.

Granted, no scheme is a panacea. Ultimately, the players need to execute, and too often New York's haven't. But I can't help wondering if the Knicks' overpowering frontcourt couldn't stand to learn something from a team that utilizes similar talent with far better results. So, as odd a couple as they'd make, let's keep our fingers crossed that Isiah Thomas has spent his time away from court this summer watching and learning from Jerry Sloan.
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EnySpree
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9/26/2007  1:18 PM
I like reading stuff like that. At least we known this guy is watching games and understands what he is looking at.

Doing the whole screen to death offense, with guys appearing open on the back door is perfect. With the ball handling of craw and marbs this should be easy.

Pre-season is when? Oh the anxiety!
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nixluva
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9/26/2007  1:45 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

I like reading stuff like that. At least we known this guy is watching games and understands what he is looking at.

Doing the whole screen to death offense, with guys appearing open on the back door is perfect. With the ball handling of craw and marbs this should be easy.

Pre-season is when? Oh the anxiety!
The funny thing is that Isiah's offense was supposed to be like that already. He has those elements in his playbook, but he seemed to dumb it down after the poor start last year. He also seemed to move away from more motion and went with more stand around and feed the post stuff. So i'm all for a bit more movement. It's always harder on the D if you make them chase you. The way we just stood around last year made it so easy for teams to defend us. I'm curious to see what Isiah does with the offense this year. Having Zach should mean that we'll have to change at least a few things about the offense.

Right now you'd have to think that Zach, Curry, Steph, Jamal and Lee are the top 5 players on the team. The question is what should the starting lineup be?

Steph, Jamal, Q, Zach & Curry? For more shooting and passing

Steph, Q, Jared, Zach & Curry? For a bit more size and D

Steph, Q, Balk, Zach & Curry? For more D and Energy
djsunyc
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9/26/2007  1:46 PM
lb said he had to remove plays from the playbook.
isiah had to change his approach as well.

looks like we need a change of the guards.

pick and roll marbury + zach on one side. crawford + curry on the other. run those 2 plays all game long.
nixluva
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9/26/2007  1:53 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

lb said he had to remove plays from the playbook.
isiah had to change his approach as well.

looks like we need a change of the guards.

pick and roll marbury + zach on one side. crawford + curry on the other. run those 2 plays all game long.
I think the strengths and weaknesses of our guards did play into it, but also our SF's too. Jared and Balk can't shoot, so putting them in motion just isn't the same as having a guy like Harpring. I think Steph could play in a motion offense a little bit, but i'm not so sure about Francis, Jamal and Nate at that time last year. Francis was an awful decision maker with the ball. Jamal can feed the post, but other than that... Nate was just not a PG period. Mardy came in after the offense had already changed, so who knows if he would be better in a motion offense.
MS
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9/26/2007  2:22 PM
He is the problem, Williams already hits bigger shots than Marbury and is better than both players and can run an offense. They don't have a player like crawford who is going to take a ton of poor shots, and don't have to deal with someone like Nate Robinson.

They have a short rotation, and a center that can space the floor. Zach and Boozer are similiar thats really the only thing that i see. The knicks would be fine if they didn't have crawford, robinson, jefferies and james to try to plug in. The team played much better when there was a shorter rotation.
NYKBocker
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9/26/2007  2:38 PM
Great read and I would have to agree with Hollinger. Unfortunately, I am not sure if Dinglebury can provide the floor leadership that Deron presents.
jazz74
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9/26/2007  2:48 PM
interesting article. i can see him comparing boozer with curry and zach with okur. i hope isaih does have a good plan in mind and not just dump the ball in the post and get out of the way. i wish we had the same defensive scheme as utah too.
nixluva
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9/26/2007  3:05 PM
Posted by MS:

He is the problem, Williams already hits bigger shots than Marbury and is better than both players and can run an offense. They don't have a player like crawford who is going to take a ton of poor shots, and don't have to deal with someone like Nate Robinson.

They have a short rotation, and a center that can space the floor. Zach and Boozer are similiar thats really the only thing that i see. The knicks would be fine if they didn't have crawford, robinson, jefferies and james to try to plug in. The team played much better when there was a shorter rotation.

I honestly don't believe that Deron is THAT much better than Steph. It is really about perception. Steph has proven that he can produce from his position in a similar manner to other good PG's but rarely has he been in a situation as good as Deron is in. I think when Steph 1st got here that was an example of the kind of roster he could do well with. That's why he was avg'ing over 9 asts a game, up until Isiah made the trades. Since then every yr it's been about adjusting and the roster hasn't been as tailored to his strengths as it was at that time. Even now it's not, but I think he can and will continue to adjust to this current roster and system. I expect him to be better in it this year. We have stability for the 1st time and I think that is gonna help a lot this year.

Now Deron is young and strong, so he's at a different stage of his career. Steph won't be called upon to carry the team as much as Deron. I think this is a good thing. We should be focused more on the younger, stronger players on the team. I'm also hopeful that Mardy, Jamal and Nate will do better. To be honest I think we're too jaded about the players we have. This is not a bad team and the more we keep this group together I think we'll see it get better and better. Last season the team was slowly progressing and I think this year we'll see it progress even more.
djsunyc
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9/26/2007  3:09 PM
steph is now 30+. his knees and ankles have taken a beating and has been shelved 2 years in a row. no more can marbury be considered as good as guys like deron or not. stephon is now an older player who is injury prone and doesn't have the legs he once did.

deron may not have been THAT much better than steph in his prime, but in 2007, deron is WAY better than steph over an 82 game season.
islesfan
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9/26/2007  3:14 PM
Last year they were supposed to play like the Suns or UCLA or whatever the hell Isiah and nixluva were trying to sell about their offensive plan.

Of course if you don't have the players to execute the offense it's all just talk. In this case the Knicks don't have a PG anywhere near as capable as Deron Williams and they don't have a upper echelon PF who can play within the framework of a team offense, like Carlos Boozer. And they don't have a secondary big man who can give you 18-20 pts and spread the floor with the ability to hit 3's.

The Knicks don't have any of the same type of players that the Jazz use to run their offense so why would anybody think that the Knicks could emulate them?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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9/26/2007  3:17 PM
I forgot, the Jazz also have a coach who has a clue.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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9/26/2007  3:28 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Last year they were supposed to play like the Suns or UCLA or whatever the hell Isiah and nixluva were trying to sell about their offensive plan.

Of course if you don't have the players to execute the offense it's all just talk. In this case the Knicks don't have a PG anywhere near as capable as Deron Williams and they don't have a upper echelon PF who can play within the framework of a team offense, like Carlos Boozer. And they don't have a secondary big man who can give you 18-20 pts and spread the floor with the ability to hit 3's.

The Knicks don't have any of the same type of players that the Jazz use to run their offense so why would anybody think that the Knicks could emulate them?

Even before all of that Isles the Knicks don't have the quality of players that give 110% every night.

Their offense is such high motion and takes precision cutting and passing to be ran effectively. Half our roster consist of one-on-one players. We don't have a Derek Fisher, Andre Kirilenko, Matt Harpring type players that just bring it no matter what the call is.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Marv
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9/26/2007  3:37 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by islesfan:

Last year they were supposed to play like the Suns or UCLA or whatever the hell Isiah and nixluva were trying to sell about their offensive plan.

Of course if you don't have the players to execute the offense it's all just talk. In this case the Knicks don't have a PG anywhere near as capable as Deron Williams and they don't have a upper echelon PF who can play within the framework of a team offense, like Carlos Boozer. And they don't have a secondary big man who can give you 18-20 pts and spread the floor with the ability to hit 3's.

The Knicks don't have any of the same type of players that the Jazz use to run their offense so why would anybody think that the Knicks could emulate them?

Even before all of that Isles the Knicks don't have the quality of players that give 110% every night.

Their offense is such high motion and takes precision cutting and passing to be ran effectively. Half our roster consist of one-on-one players. We don't have a Derek Fisher, Andre Kirilenko, Matt Harpring type players that just bring it no matter what the call is.

subzero0
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9/26/2007  3:55 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by islesfan:

Last year they were supposed to play like the Suns or UCLA or whatever the hell Isiah and nixluva were trying to sell about their offensive plan.

Of course if you don't have the players to execute the offense it's all just talk. In this case the Knicks don't have a PG anywhere near as capable as Deron Williams and they don't have a upper echelon PF who can play within the framework of a team offense, like Carlos Boozer. And they don't have a secondary big man who can give you 18-20 pts and spread the floor with the ability to hit 3's.

The Knicks don't have any of the same type of players that the Jazz use to run their offense so why would anybody think that the Knicks could emulate them?

Even before all of that Isles the Knicks don't have the quality of players that give 110% every night.

Their offense is such high motion and takes precision cutting and passing to be ran effectively. Half our roster consist of one-on-one players. We don't have a Derek Fisher, Andre Kirilenko, Matt Harpring type players that just bring it no matter what the call is.

Yes, because Andre Kirilenko brought it every night for the Jazz right?
subzero0
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9/26/2007  4:02 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by EnySpree:

I like reading stuff like that. At least we known this guy is watching games and understands what he is looking at.

Doing the whole screen to death offense, with guys appearing open on the back door is perfect. With the ball handling of craw and marbs this should be easy.

Pre-season is when? Oh the anxiety!
The funny thing is that Isiah's offense was supposed to be like that already. He has those elements in his playbook, but he seemed to dumb it down after the poor start last year. He also seemed to move away from more motion and went with more stand around and feed the post stuff. So i'm all for a bit more movement. It's always harder on the D if you make them chase you. The way we just stood around last year made it so easy for teams to defend us. I'm curious to see what Isiah does with the offense this year. Having Zach should mean that we'll have to change at least a few things about the offense.

Right now you'd have to think that Zach, Curry, Steph, Jamal and Lee are the top 5 players on the team. The question is what should the starting lineup be?

Steph, Jamal, Q, Zach & Curry? For more shooting and passing

Steph, Q, Jared, Zach & Curry? For a bit more size and D

Steph, Q, Balk, Zach & Curry? For more D and Energy

I think you just answered your own question nixluva.

Steph, Jamal, Lee, Zach & Curry.

Yes I know what you are thinking right now. How can Lee play that small forward spot, he should be behind Zach. But I say it is the best team we can put out there at one time. Lee will have trouble guarding the quicker 3's but will make up for it with his defensive rebounding on that end of the floor. On the other end of the floor will they really be able to stop Lee's cutting. Also, Lee will be able to see over the smaller forwards in order to effectively pass the ball. The only thing that I really think about with this sort of lineup is could Lee hit that 15 footer. That really is the key with this setting.
TrueBlue
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9/26/2007  4:21 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by islesfan:

Last year they were supposed to play like the Suns or UCLA or whatever the hell Isiah and nixluva were trying to sell about their offensive plan.

Of course if you don't have the players to execute the offense it's all just talk. In this case the Knicks don't have a PG anywhere near as capable as Deron Williams and they don't have a upper echelon PF who can play within the framework of a team offense, like Carlos Boozer. And they don't have a secondary big man who can give you 18-20 pts and spread the floor with the ability to hit 3's.

The Knicks don't have any of the same type of players that the Jazz use to run their offense so why would anybody think that the Knicks could emulate them?

Even before all of that Isles the Knicks don't have the quality of players that give 110% every night.

Their offense is such high motion and takes precision cutting and passing to be ran effectively. Half our roster consist of one-on-one players. We don't have a Derek Fisher, Andre Kirilenko, Matt Harpring type players that just bring it no matter what the call is.



Point Taken I should have stated

Pre 2006 Kirilenko minus the injuries. If he wasn't being such a diva with Sloan he'd be the usual 5,5,5,5,5, player. That's why we see trade proposals from fans hoping to acquire him because they know if there aren't any issues no one will question his effort. The guy lead his Russian team to a championship. Do I want him in his current funk no!

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 09-26-2007 3:23 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
nixluva
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9/26/2007  5:28 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

steph is now 30+. his knees and ankles have taken a beating and has been shelved 2 years in a row. no more can marbury be considered as good as guys like deron or not. stephon is now an older player who is injury prone and doesn't have the legs he once did.

deron may not have been THAT much better than steph in his prime, but in 2007, deron is WAY better than steph over an 82 game season.
I agree with this, which is why I brought out that we won't be relying on Steph to carry the load anymore. Steph can however, perform at that level for limited time. We have to get more out of guys like Jamal, Mardy and Nate. Mardy never got the chance to really try to run the offense the way it was originally designed. It may be that Isiah has completely tanked that part of his playbook or maybe he'll try to incorporate more of the motion this year.

The funny thing is that his draft picks of Chan and DNic fit that style PERFECTLY. They're both quick and can shoot it well enough to be a threat. So in the end I see a future where this teams roster is more perfectly suited to what we're trying to run. Once again I find myself preaching patience when it comes to Isiah and this team. As we continue to move along this team will be refined and we'll get rid of the parts that don't fit.

franco12
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9/26/2007  9:57 PM
marbury this summer has demonstrated that he just doesn't have a lot up in the attic as far as brain power- he's always been a player that got by with strength and quickness- he never really 'ran' an offense.

I have dreams of watching Nichols coming off double screens set by Curry & Randolph- those two wide bodies have the potential to create more space for a shooter than any other pair of players out there.
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9/26/2007  9:58 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by djsunyc:

steph is now 30+. his knees and ankles have taken a beating and has been shelved 2 years in a row. no more can marbury be considered as good as guys like deron or not. stephon is now an older player who is injury prone and doesn't have the legs he once did.

deron may not have been THAT much better than steph in his prime, but in 2007, deron is WAY better than steph over an 82 game season.
I agree with this, which is why I brought out that we won't be relying on Steph to carry the load anymore. Steph can however, perform at that level for limited time. We have to get more out of guys like Jamal, Mardy and Nate. Mardy never got the chance to really try to run the offense the way it was originally designed. It may be that Isiah has completely tanked that part of his playbook or maybe he'll try to incorporate more of the motion this year.

The funny thing is that his draft picks of Chan and DNic fit that style PERFECTLY. They're both quick and can shoot it well enough to be a threat. So in the end I see a future where this teams roster is more perfectly suited to what we're trying to run. Once again I find myself preaching patience when it comes to Isiah and this team. As we continue to move along this team will be refined and we'll get rid of the parts that don't fit.

This is the problem.
The team has 2 groups of players again.
One - veterans who failed to deliver wins but delivered the stats to get paid big $$$ (they were MVP in this)
Another - young promising guys who will be lucking playing time and will remain question marks at the end of the season again.
This is not about the players but about mismatched and mismanaged roster better suited for Fantasy League than for NBA.












[Edited by - arkrud on 09-26-2007 9:58 PM]
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Hollinger: Nix Should Play Like Utah

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