No, not really on the Knicks, but I found it instructive to some of the discussions we have had on this board in the past. And I didn’t want to put one of those inane OTs before the post.

Joe was asked about the Yankees recent “youth movement.” In the context of the article, Cashman was being given props after a win was sparked by some of the Yankee up-and-comers like Edwar Ramirez, Wilson Betemit, and of course Yank du jour Joba Chamberlain. Cashman has turned down some trade opportunities and stood pat, content to build up from inside the organization. The result has been a Yankee team that is getting younger, and is winning (recently) while having a brighter future...

“I give Cash a lot of credit, because during this whole thing leading up to the end of July, you still have to evaluate,” Manager Joe Torre said. “It’s not easy, especially in this town, to give the appearance of not doing anything and still helping yourself. Of course, Ramírez came out of nowhere. He had been released by the same organization twice.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/sports/baseball/20yankees.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

And of course, Joe is right. You do have to give Cashman a lot of credit for building up via youth in this town when the pressure is always on to win now, even if in some cases he did so out of desperation. Simply, if you dispute that there is something inherently difficult about rebuilding a team in New York City then you have a beef with Joe Torre, a guy that I would guess has more knowledge about running/managing a flagship franchise in this town in his little pinky than you have…you get the idea. If Cashman gets credit for building on a team that had recently won 4 championships, how crazy would you have to be to endure the hot seat for 4-6 years (if you are lucky) while trying to do the same for the Knicks?

I don’t want to take this too far, because this shouldn’t turn into a comparison between building a baseball team and building a basketball team. But I find it interesting that at its core, Isiah’s plan coming here to New York was similar to Cashman’s recent modus operandi…lean on established vets to get you the requisite number of wins while building up a foundation of young talent for the future. Of course, Allan Houston and Stephon Marbury were no Jeter and A-Rod, but then Isiah’s boss (the one NY metro area sports franchise owner more clueless than Steinbrenner, and that’s saying something) wasn’t looking for a championship every year, he just wanted to make the playoffs.

Essentially, when you ride Isiah for not rebuilding you are riding him for not defying the guy who writes his checks. Here is where Isiah and Cashman are different. Cashman has convinced his owner to do things his way, while Isiah is still very much under his owner’s thumb. I guess that is partly on Isiah, but its worth noting that it took Cash seven years to wrestle some control from his boss, and this is a guy who has the cache from overseeing three championships under his tenure. Doesn’t hurt that George is getting old and senile, either.

I believe Isiah Thomas when he says his ultimate goal is winning a championship. Frankly, if even TrueBlue can see this team would have been better off blowing up the roster and starting over in 2004, you have to think that a guy a whole lot smarter and with a whole lot more experience working in basketball could see that too. So why do we continue down this path, what can our expectations be as fans of this team in the future? It’s a more interesting and nuanced discussion about our Knicks than the usual “Isiah’s a dumbass” post, don’t you think?

I actually feel that Isiah had already convinced Dolan to let him go with youth 2.5 years ago. He probably laid it all out for Dolan and made it clear that the team had to take a different approach. They've been talking about this rebuild for a while now and you can see it for the most part, tho it's never gonna be a traditional rebuild here in NY and with this owner.

Isiah has been searching for younger talent and aside from the Francis deal that's pretty much what he's done with all his moves. They don't have to be complete babies for it to be a good rebuild. Just guys young enough to have a long run with. Right now the bulk of the team is younger guys and the older ones are nearing the end. This DNic situation is troubling, but I trust Isiah will end up doing the right thing. I don't believe he doesn't like the kid, he's just trying to work out the most advantageous situation for the team.

I never believed that Isiah was dumb or clueless. He is far from perfect, but I think he has a scheme for building this team that is very clear at this point. He's always trading up and adding young studs from the four corners of the Earth. I can't argue with the method in terms of his ability to improve the talent level. Now it's about seeing the results, which I believe will happen this year. We'll know more at the end of this month I think.

I would go along with this but unfortunately our core group the past few years has been Marbs, Curry, Crawford, Q, Francis, TT etc. I dont' think fans are complaining about losing with the young guys. They are having a problem with the vets that haven't shown the commitment to winning. Not the young guys.

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by Bippity10:
I dont' think fans are complaining about losing with the young guys. They are having a problem with the vets that haven't shown the commitment to winning. Not the young guys.

Lets say for a moment that this is true (it isn't, but moving on) the point isn't what you or I think the fans are thinking, its what James Dolan thinks the fans are thinking.

And the point I've made before, backed by Joe Torre, is that Dolan and the Knicks aren't the only sports franchise in New York that thinks the best way to appeal to this market is to spend for talent, rather than farming for it.

You needed Joe Torre to tell you that. Of course the way to sell tickets is to spend for big name talent. What do you think the term Starphuch means. But knowledgeable fans know that when you look at the most successful period for the Yankees in the last 15 years it came as a result of development from the inside. Knick fans feel the same way. Knick fans complain and complain and complain. That's New York. Knickfans love the Lee's and the Balkman's and Q's of the world for one reason. It's not age, it's not skin color, it's not ability. It's one thing and one thing only. Effort. When you build a roster of guys perceived(right or wrong) to not work hard, you will get a negative reaction. But the fact remains the same. If you say we can't rebuild in New York, why is it that in the 7 years of losing that we have had since Patrick we have only had 2 GM's. This notion is a lie. You can rebuild in NY if you choose to.

The beef isn't spending rather than rebuilding or going after big names rather than rebuilding. Though the best way to win a championship would be to land a superstar through the draft. The beef the overpaying, by either giving up to many assets to trade for the player or giving to many yrs in a contract to a player.

Randolph trade we didn't overpay. The Randolph trade we got back a ton of talent as well as a ton of baggage. But as we have learned the hard way, over an over again is that Talent alone doesn't win consistantly in this league. Simi talent, but balance & chemistry can win in this league more consistantly than talent with simi balance & chemistry. I held out hope in the past that Isiah would get it and build something. But my faith is shot until he proves to me he knows how to build a balanced team. Again with the Randolph trade we didn't overpay and got talent. But this team isn't balanced and its hard to have good chemistry with an unbalanced team. All Isiah has done so far is make a plan fail then change plans fail then change plans again and fail. All while overpaying so much in plan after plan creating dead wood and log jams that we now have to wait a couple yrs for contracts to expire in order to get balance and make room for the younger guys.

Now say that this current plan with Randolph doesn't work out. Does Isiah change plans again? What becomes of Randolph or Curry? Do we acquire another player with talent who doesn't balance the team with baggage while giving up young players in seemingly never ending cycle to be just good enough to just make playoffs but never truly become contenders?

Posted by newyorknewyork:

The beef isn't spending rather than rebuilding or going after big names rather than rebuilding. Though the best way to win a championship would be to land a superstar through the draft. The beef the overpaying, by either giving up to many assets to trade for the player or giving to many yrs in a contract to a player.

Randolph trade we didn't overpay. The Randolph trade we got back a ton of talent as well as a ton of baggage. But as we have learned the hard way, over an over again is that Talent alone doesn't win consistantly in this league. Simi talent, but balance & chemistry can win in this league more consistantly than talent with simi balance & chemistry. I held out hope in the past that Isiah would get it and build something. But my faith is shot until he proves to me he knows how to build a balanced team. Again with the Randolph trade we didn't overpay and got talent. But this team isn't balanced and its hard to have good chemistry with an unbalanced team. All Isiah has done so far is make a plan fail then change plans fail then change plans again and fail. All while overpaying so much in plan after plan creating dead wood and log jams that we now have to wait a couple yrs for contracts to expire in order to get balance and make room for the younger guys.

Now say that this current plan with Randolph doesn't work out. Does Isiah change plans again? What becomes of Randolph or Curry? Do we acquire another player with talent who doesn't balance the team with baggage while giving up young players in seemingly never ending cycle to be just good enough to just make playoffs but never truly become contenders?

The balance you speak of has been coming, but you have to acknowledge that we've been reliant on young developing players over the last 2 seasons and as such you have to allow some time for things to work out. We saw that Frye wasn't progressing as fast as we would like and so he changed him out for Zach. Now to me the roster has a good balance of talent at every position, but we're overstocked in some spots. That isn't the worst problem to have, tho it is a problem.

We still are trying to see how Mardy, Balk, Nate and now Chan, DNic and Morris work out. Is that unreasonable since we're talking about 2yr, 1yr and rookie players? We already know what we have in Lee, Zach and Curry. We know what we have in Q and Jamal and we're hoping Jared can have a bounce back year. If not then he can go. Isiah IMO has brought in the right pieces. I don't care about the number of changes or losses, so long as we end up with the right players, which IMO he really has been doing. The last 3 drafts have been VERY good in that regard.

Some may not like Zach, but who should we have gotten instead and how were we to get them? Some might have wanted Sheed or JO, but really it takes 2 sides to make a deal. We all would like KG, but again, you need a trade partner that is willing to work with you. McHale preferred to help his buddy and old team instead, so there you go. Portland accepted our offer and so we got Zach. He's not perfect, but he's a HUGE improvement and now it's up to Isiah to make it work. Based on his skills he should fit just great. The only issues are that he's not a Saint nor a great defender. If he was do you think we'd really have a chance to get him so easily?

Posted by Masterplan:

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by Bippity10:

If you say we can't rebuild in New York, why is it that in the 7 years of losing that we have had since Patrick we have only had 2 GM's. This notion is a lie. You can rebuild in NY if you choose to.

Sorry, don't follow how the numbers of GMs we have had enters into this, excpet to say that our GMs have been good at doing what Dolan wants them to do which does not include rebuilding.

i think what he's getting at is the ficticious "win-now mandate" that means we have to do stuff like the steve francis trade. the logic is that if we turn the team over to the youth, we'll lose too many games and our GM gets fired. so we bring in vets. we proceed to lose too many games regardless, but our GM still doesn't get fired.

if our ownership tolerates losing, why bother doing it with steve francis? why not play our youth and see how it turns out?

Yes, that was my point, thanks for saying it more eloquently.

I also agree with New York. Obviously we all hope that Curry and Zach become the beasts of the EAst and we take off. I have all ten fingers and toes crossed hoping that this will happen. Because if it doesn't work we are once again starting all over again, looking for a new duo/single to build around.

Not looking for excuses, Bip, you know that. Lamenting our "culture of excuses" is a cop-out when someone lays out a pretty air-tight causal relationship that you don’t want to accept. I'm explaining why you can't rebuild in New York, which no, is not the same as losing while appearing to make every effort to win each year.

Which brings us back to Torre's quote, one neat circle. I guess I'm done here, anything further from me would be redundant.

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by Masterplan:
i think what he's getting at is the ficticious "win-now mandate" ...if our ownership tolerates losing, why bother doing it with steve francis? why not play our youth and see how it turns out?

Fictitious? You must have missed it when Dolan gave Isiah a year to show progress or get fired. Funny, it was pretty well covered.

the distinction between "win" vs. "progress" shouldn't be a hard one for someone following the knicks to grasp, my friend... i don't consider 33-49 *winning* (or even really progress, but that's a different can o' worms).

in other words, if i owned the knicks and issued a win-now mandate to my GM, anything less than 42 wins and i'd can the guy no further questions asked. i might even demand a playoff series win. i definitely wouldn't accept any excuses (injuries) or scapegoats (coaches) either. that's how it would work.

Posted by Bippity10:
But if this team sucks again, there is no fan that is going to have a problem with the GM starting over. The problem they will have will be "why didn't they do that in the first place".

We've gone round in circles on this one Bip, we'll have to agree to disagree. You think rebuilding via youth would have little effect on Dolan's revenues, I disagree. So, apparently, does Joe Torre.

You are, of course, entitled to that opinion and welcomed by me to repeat it as often as you like so long as you understand that as of this moment, you have presented nothing that supports it.

Posted by Bippity10:

I think it would affect his Revenue. Of course it would. So again, let's go back to blaming the owner who has short term vision on how to make money for the Knicks, instead of the NY fans who are usually blamed for managements inability to rebuild. When your team stinks fans stop going to games. When your team is getting better they start coming back. When the team is great the place is sold out. It's the same way in every city in America and yet New York is the only place where it's said the fans are the reason we can't rebuild.

I went to a Bulls game a year after Chicago traded Pippen & co. Place was packed, and I suspect their sell-out streak continued well into the rebuild. They had built enough credit with their fans after 6 championships that they were able to do a complete rebuild without losing revenue. Credit them for recognizing the moment was right. When was that moment for New York?

I recall a story I heard over the radio concerning Bonds' contract status in San Francisco this year. The owner said he wasn't going to move Bonds because he felt the San Francisco market was still driven by star power. So who is saying this only happens in New York? The owners of the Dodgers and Braves likely feel the same way.

I think your mistake is thinking I am assigning "blame", it is what it is. It seems wrong to you to “blame” the fans, ok, then don’t. Fact is if Dolan’s feel for this market told him that fans would stay interested through a multi-year rebuild, he probably would have gladly done so rather than shell out millions for flawed veterans. But I think we both agree that this isn’t the case, so in the end, if you have to blame someone blame Dolan for being unwilling to take the hit.

Just know that when I, or someone else, says you can’t rebuild in New York, we are referring to a corollary between staying relevant in this market and revenue, one which you already agree to. Its not a diss of New York fans, it’s a recognition that in this city we don’t suffer losers, and we got plenty of other things to do. That ain’t a bad thing.