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Still can't swallow taking Chandler at #23
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Finestrg
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7/27/2007  12:52 PM
I know we've been over this a lot since the draft, so please forgive me. It's just that I can't see picking this kid Chandler over guys like Morris Almond, Rudy Fernandez and Arron Afflalo when we clearly NEEDED A CONSISTENT PERIMETER SHOOTER ON THIS TEAM IN ORDER TO FILL A NEED & TAKE THE NEXT STEP. Now Chandler looks like a player and Zeke did do a good job picking up Nichols late in the draft from Portland to fill the huge void on this team which is perimeter shooting but, come on, both of these guys are major projects.

For all the good that Crawford and Richardson do for us, the fact remains that they are under 40% shooters - both of them. Plus, Richardson's back is as big a question mark as ever, coming off major back surgery. Plus, and I wasn't a big fan, we did give up on Channing Frye who when all is said and done probably had the best perimeter touch on the team. The kid could at least shoot the ball despite all of his deficiences. So now he's gone.... See where I'm going. Where's the consistent perimeter offense supposed to come from?

I like the Zach Randolph trade. Now for the record, I would've loved it if we got Martell Webster in that deal. I really think we could've held out a little longer and/or sweetened the deal a little to pry Webster away from the Blazers (you think Portland would've liked a guy like Morris, Balkman or Mardy Collins?) - he would've been perfect, but whatever, still a solid trade. We probably have the best frontcourt in the Eastern Conference on paper right now. I'm just not sold on Craw and Q as my primary outside threats. I'm sorry. To me, I still can't swallow the fact that we took Chandler at #23 when guys like Almond (6'6", can play 2 and the 3, probably the best shooter in the draft), Rudy Fernandez (like Almond he's 6'6" so he can play some some 3 if Q can't go, excellent overall skills, very good shooter) and Afflalo (6'5", strong, experienced, played against excellent competition every night for a quality program that was very sucessful a few years in a row going deep into the tournament, and oh yeah, he's an excellent shooter himself, very clutch - Detroit got a steal here folks) were still on the board. I mean any of these guys would've been a PERFECT FIT!!!!!!! Look, we needed a shotblocker or a shooter going in. We all knew this. Even Zeke himself said that this draft, more than any other, was one where he was prepared to draft out of need rather than on best available talent remaining. The shotblocker was off the board, but we still had a choice of three excellent perimeter talents who would've stepped in right away next season and contributed. Then he goes and does the complete opposite and takes the biggest gamble possible by rolling the dice on a project like Chandler. Now I'll root harder than anyone out there for Chandler to do well, and he does have talent (looked real good in the summer league) but come on, was this really the right call? Anyone with me on this or what?
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VDesai
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7/27/2007  12:58 PM
Nichols look just as good as any shooter we could've gotten at 23, and Chandler has the athleticism, talent and 2-way potential that makes him seem like a very good value at that pick.
COSSUCKS
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7/27/2007  1:06 PM
Pardon?
bigbeast
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7/27/2007  1:08 PM
Posted by VDesai:

Nichols look just as good as any shooter we could've gotten at 23, and Chandler has the athleticism, talent and 2-way potential that makes him seem like a very good value at that pick.

Agreed. Almond for the most part is one-dimensional, albiet a dimension we need,but he doesn't play on the other side of the ball and no way can he play SF as was suggested. Rudy Fernandez is a buck-90, he's not playing Sf either.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
Elite
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7/27/2007  1:15 PM
Nichols reminds me of Glen Rice just a little less deadly
Finestrg
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7/27/2007  1:20 PM
I hear ya V-man. I like Nichols too. The kid can shoot the ball. But imho, he doesn't stack up to guys like Almond, Fernandez or Afflalo. Not even in the same zip code dude. I mean there's a reason these 3 guys went in the 20s and Nichols went #53. And to me, although he looked good in the summer league, Nichols actually looked more raw to me than Chandler. To me this draft was easy. We had the obvious need to fill in perimeter scoring. We had options available that could've came in right away and contributed. Instead, he took a tweener, that does have upside but might be 2-3 years away from contributing and a shooter late in the 2nd round that might not even make the club.

Out of all of these guys that we're throwing around here:

Almond
Fernandez
Afflalo
Chandler
Nichols

who has the most upside and the best chance to be successful at his position at the NBA level? Just curious what you guys think.
islesfan
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7/27/2007  1:25 PM
Almond, no question about it.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
JohnWallace44
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7/27/2007  1:28 PM
Did you watch the summer league?
What was it about this guy that you didn't like?
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Finestrg
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7/27/2007  1:44 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by VDesai:

Nichols look just as good as any shooter we could've gotten at 23, and Chandler has the athleticism, talent and 2-way potential that makes him seem like a very good value at that pick.

Agreed. Almond for the most part is one-dimensional, albiet a dimension we need,but he doesn't play on the other side of the ball and no way can he play SF as was suggested. Rudy Fernandez is a buck-90, he's not playing Sf either.

Respectfully disagree. Almond is a legit 6'6" and strong as hell. What he lacks quickness-wise he certainly makes up for in the strength department. The guy's body has been NBA-ready for awhile now - draftexpress.com compares his body favorably to Corey Maggette. A lot of his offense last year for Rice relied on him getting in the lane and being able to overpower the opposition and continually get to the line where he made his FTs at a high clip. Without question, is more than physically capable of playing the 3 in the NBA. Plus his superior rebounding ability definitely make him much more than one-dimensional in my book. From everything I've read and the few times I've actually seen him, I see Allan Houston offensive game with Q. Richardson's rebounding ability. Certainly nothing to sneeze at.

True Fernandez is a different story body-wise, but that's where any NBA team with a halfway decent strength and conditioning program comes in. With the right diet and lifting program is it out of the question that Rudy could put on 20-30 pounds of muscle in a short period of time? Absolutely not. Of course he could. At 6'6" he has the frame to add the extra muscle. 6'6" is tall enough to play 3 in the NBA btw. When he does, look out man. The guy can do just about everything out there on the court. Phoenix really go a nice player with this guy, as if they needed anymore talent on that friggin' team.
Finestrg
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7/27/2007  1:57 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Did you watch the summer league?
What was it about this guy that you didn't like?

What didn't I like? Nothing. Actually I was pleasantly suprised at how smooth Chandler looked. It's just that I think we could've done better. Not one person has answered one of my original questions which was WHERE IS THE CONSISTENT PERIMETER OFFENSE GOING TO COME FROM on a team that talks about making the playoffs soon? It just isn't there. Almond, Fernandez or Afflalo would've fixed that problem instantly. We could've EXPECTED that out of any of those 3 guys, at least I would've. As it stands now, we've got to HOPE & PRAY we get that out of Chandler and this kid Nichols.
nyk4ever
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7/27/2007  2:03 PM
I'm with you Finesrg.

I still don't think people on this board understand what the term "getting value" for your pick means.

I like Wilson Chandler. I like Renaldo Balkman. I am happy they both on the Knicks but they both could have been selected much lower than they were. As the the Suns have shown the rest of the league, they are more than willing to sell draft picks and it wouldn't have been so hard to select someone like Morris Almond with the 'chandler pick' and then buy one the Suns pick or someone elses second round pick to take Chandler.
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Solace
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7/27/2007  2:05 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I'm with you Finesrg.

I still don't think people on this board understand what the term "getting value" for your pick means.

I like Wilson Chandler. I like Renaldo Balkman. I am happy they both on the Knicks but they both could have been selected much lower than they were. As the the Suns have shown the rest of the league, they are more than willing to sell draft picks and it wouldn't have been so hard to select someone like Morris Almond with the 'chandler pick' and then buy one the Suns pick or someone elses second round pick to take Chandler.

Agreed. But tired of saying it, because if you acknowledge that Isiah gets bad value for his picks, even if you like the player, then you're a "hater". Nichols was a great value pick. Chandler was certainly not.
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nyk4ever
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7/27/2007  2:06 PM
Posted by Solace:


Agreed. But tired of saying it, because if you acknowledge that Isiah gets bad value for his picks, even if you like the player, then you're a "hater". Nichols was a great value pick. Chandler was certainly not.

The labels are old and overplayed. I agree with about Nichols, he was a tremendous value pick.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
islesfan
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7/27/2007  2:08 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I'm with you Finesrg.

I still don't think people on this board understand what the term "getting value" for your pick means.

I like Wilson Chandler. I like Renaldo Balkman. I am happy they both on the Knicks but they both could have been selected much lower than they were. As the the Suns have shown the rest of the league, they are more than willing to sell draft picks and it wouldn't have been so hard to select someone like Morris Almond with the 'chandler pick' and then buy one the Suns pick or someone elses second round pick to take Chandler.

Nichols was good value. Even if he's a "bust", I wouldn't have any problem with that pick.

Notice I've never said a bad word about Nichols. Same with Lee, he was a good pick for where they got him. Good value.

Nate was a bad pick, Frye was a bad pick, Chandler was a bad value and Balkman was bad value.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
JohnWallace44
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7/27/2007  2:44 PM
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Did you watch the summer league?
What was it about this guy that you didn't like?

What didn't I like? Nothing. Actually I was pleasantly suprised at how smooth Chandler looked. It's just that I think we could've done better. Not one person has answered one of my original questions which was WHERE IS THE CONSISTENT PERIMETER OFFENSE GOING TO COME FROM on a team that talks about making the playoffs soon? It just isn't there. Almond, Fernandez or Afflalo would've fixed that problem instantly. We could've EXPECTED that out of any of those 3 guys, at least I would've. As it stands now, we've got to HOPE & PRAY we get that out of Chandler and this kid Nichols.

If we had drafted Fernandez where is your perimeter D coming from?
If we drafted Afflalo, where is your shooting coming from?

We need balanced players at this point with an emphasis on defensive ability.

I think the best team you could put on the floor right now would be
Marbs
Q
Chandler
Zach
Curry

because you would have Q and Chandler to defend the best players on the other team every night and they wouldn't be an offensive liability.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Finestrg
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7/27/2007  2:48 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I'm with you Finesrg.

I still don't think people on this board understand what the term "getting value" for your pick means.

I like Wilson Chandler. I like Renaldo Balkman. I am happy they both on the Knicks but they both could have been selected much lower than they were. As the the Suns have shown the rest of the league, they are more than willing to sell draft picks and it wouldn't have been so hard to select someone like Morris Almond with the 'chandler pick' and then buy one the Suns pick or someone elses second round pick to take Chandler.

Agreed. But tired of saying it, because if you acknowledge that Isiah gets bad value for his picks, even if you like the player, then you're a "hater". Nichols was a great value pick. Chandler was certainly not.

Totally agree with both of you guys. Instead of drafting our starting backcourt for the next 10-15 years in Marcus Williams and Morris Almond the past two drafts, we roll the dice on projects like Balkman and Chandler - who basically play the same position btw. And again, I'm with you guys as far as defining what a "value" pick really is. What it is is David Lee at #30 a couple of years ago. It's definitely not selecting guys that are projected to go late in the 2nd round or even undrafted with our picks in the early 20s. Come on Zeke, we're not the Phoenix Suns or the San Antonio Spurs here where we can afford to gamble on picks where if they don't pan, **** whatever, we're still winning 55-60 ball games and probably going to the finals. Don't get me wrong, Balkman's panned out quite nicely, every team could use a role player like him. His energy is amazing. And I'm sure Chandler will carve out his niche in the NBA - the guy looks like he has solid overall talent. It's just that in a deep draft with a pick in the 20s I'm looking for talent that can fill needs and come in and contribute right away - in other words a sure thing or as close to a sure thing as I can get my hands on. Zeke had that opportunity and passed it up 2 years in a row now. It's almost like he's still in his "compiling assets" mode of a couple of years ago. Listen dude, you brought Curry in here and now Randolph. You're on you're way. Just put the right pieces around those guys now. And one of those pieces that we still don't have is a consistent perimeter scoring threat.
VDesai
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7/27/2007  3:19 PM
I dunno who'll be better. I know I had Almond rated a bit higher than Nichols, but Almond looks like he's running in mud out there. I think he can shoot and score and will be a good player, but Nichols is a more fluid athlete, has more potential on the defensive end and seems to be bringing the same scoring mentality. My question with Nichols is consistency and whether he was a one year wonder with his senior year. But I thought he would have been a viable option at 23 and posted to that effect here.

Chandler was more of a question mark, b/c I was unimpressed with his game in the couple times I saw him at DePaul, but a) we didn't hear much about his perormance and rising stock pre-draft b/c we apparently shut down his workouts and b) he looked like a much more polished player during summer league than I can recall from seeing him in college. Maybe he's more suited to this style of play? I don't know, but he has obviously made strides. Reason A, which I mentioned above, is a viable reason you might still be conflicted about taking him. I think opinions might've changed if we kept hearing positive things out of pre-draft workouts though.
Finestrg
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7/27/2007  3:38 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Did you watch the summer league?
What was it about this guy that you didn't like?

What didn't I like? Nothing. Actually I was pleasantly suprised at how smooth Chandler looked. It's just that I think we could've done better. Not one person has answered one of my original questions which was WHERE IS THE CONSISTENT PERIMETER OFFENSE GOING TO COME FROM on a team that talks about making the playoffs soon? It just isn't there. Almond, Fernandez or Afflalo would've fixed that problem instantly. We could've EXPECTED that out of any of those 3 guys, at least I would've. As it stands now, we've got to HOPE & PRAY we get that out of Chandler and this kid Nichols.

If we had drafted Fernandez where is your perimeter D coming from?
If we drafted Afflalo, where is your shooting coming from?

We need balanced players at this point with an emphasis on defensive ability.

I think the best team you could put on the floor right now would be
Marbs
Q
Chandler
Zach
Curry

because you would have Q and Chandler to defend the best players on the other team every night and they wouldn't be an offensive liability.

Well I think Fernandez' overall game is worth taking a chance on imo, despite any "alleged" defensive shortcomings. This kid's experienced, playing against the top competition in Europe for quite sometime now, tall, has a good handle, is an above average passer, takes the ball to the rim with authority (check him out on Youtube) and shoots it well from deep. Talk about a value pick - this would've been the guy. Plus, he's got above average height & quickness and is fully capable of being at least an average defender at the NBA level. True he is a little thin, but it's nothing that he can't correct. Anyone with dedication can put on 20 pounds of muscle if they had to. It's the natural, God-given basketball skills and instincts that you can't really teach and this kid looks to have them all.

I don't know what to tell ya my man but Afflalo is a good offensive player. To me, he's clutch as hell - I don't know how many games I've seen this kid win by himself in the closing seconds the past few years, an excellent mid-range shooter with range out to the 3 pt. line, solid at the line, very strong and a very good defender. Nothing I've seen out of him tells me he won't be anything but a sucessful NBA 2-guard as long as he gets playing time, which might not come right away, Detroit is stacked with wings and guards. A lot of boards compare him to Raja Bell or Rip Hamilton - and now he has a chance to watch, play against and learn from the Ripster himself in practice and games everyday. Perfect situation for him over there in Detroit. You wouldn't have heard a peep outta me if we drafted this guy. I would've been too busy doing cartwheels in front of the Garden.

And as currently constructed, I do agree that that lineup you listed would probably be the most effective although I need to see much more of Chandler before I make any final decisions. That's the whole point of my argument. Chandler is a complete unknown quantity - we don't know what the hell he is or will become really. Will he become the next Shawn Marion or will he be the next Marcus Fizer? Bottom line is you take this guy at 30 or somewhere in the second round with the good old "best available talent" philosophy in mind. Not when you have a chance to take one of three of the best swingmen in the entire draft and YOU NEED A SHOOTER! You even had Marbury saying Zeke needs to take a shooter before the draft. Sorry fellas, I just can't swallow it, the more I think about it. We're much closer to making some noise in this weak-ass Eastern Conference with Almond, Fernandez or Afflalo on board instead of Wilson Chandler.
JohnWallace44
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7/27/2007  3:48 PM
I see, so "Getting Value" equates to drafting the player on the board that the general public has rated the highest right?

What's the value in drafting a player that you think is going to be a bust.

Would we somehow be better off drafting players like Antoine Wright?
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Solace
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7/27/2007  4:07 PM
^ I see that posting the same thing three times is considered consistency. j/k

JW, you're making bad assumptions. No, getting value is based on the very high likelihood that you can get the player later in the draft, so why not trade for a draft pick that teams give away for a few million, and take the player you want, plus another player? That's all. All the lovers on the board won't acknowledge that Frye at #8, Balkman at #20, Chandler at #23 were all picked MUCH higher than they likely would've gone without Isiah's involvement -- they only acknowledge that they like the player, which was never the issue. Then to top it off, we get criticized for suggesting the Isiah should've taken it into account. He's done this at least a few times already, so it seems like Isiah's mindset is: "I want this player", when maybe it would be more beneficial to think, "I want this player, but he's a reach at this slot, let me take another player at this slot and use the my next pick/trade for another pick to get this player".

[Edited by - Solace on Jul 27 2007 4:09 PM]

[Edited by - Solace on Jul 27 2007 4:28 PM]
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Still can't swallow taking Chandler at #23
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