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OT: Looks like Michael Vick is screwed:
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Allanfan20
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7/18/2007  1:53 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940312

By Lester Munson
A grand jury indicted Atlanta Falcons' quarterback Michael Vick on Tuesday, which at least partially answers one question that has lingered since the news first broke about an alleged dogfighting operation on property owned by Vick in Virginia: Was Vick involved? Obviously, we know now that investigators believe he was.


There are plenty of football-related issues still to be resolved about Vick's future with the Falcons and the NFL, but those might be the least of his concerns right now. Questions about his legal future abound. Here are some answers.

What do these federal charges mean for Vick?

Vick is in real trouble. He is up against the might and majesty of the U.S. government with all of its agents, all of its investigative techniques and all of its skilled prosecutors. If he has any doubts about the power and skill of the forces arrayed against him, he can call Scooter Libby, former chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney, or he can call Lord Conrad Black, the disgraced media mogul facing time in a federal penitentiary. If he still isn't convinced, he can call Jeff Skilling, the zillionaire former Enron CEO who is residing in a federal pen. All three of them hired brilliant (and expensive) lawyers. All three thought they could explain their way out from under federal charges. And all three were convicted. Vick can, and probably will, hire some of America's best defense lawyers, but they will face a serious battle.

Would Vick be sent to jail if he is convicted?

Yes. It's hard to imagine any other outcome. The charges are serious, and the evidence against Vick presented at trial will be nasty. The government's case includes evidence that Vick and his cohorts "tested" pit bulls for ferocity. If the dogs failed the test, the indictment charges, they were executed by hanging or drowning. In one case, with Vick present, the indictment says a dog was slammed to the ground until it was dead. In another incident, a dog was soaked with a hose, then electrocuted. Those aren't the sort of transgressions that lead to probation and community service. It's the kind of behavior that results in punishment, and the punishment will be jail time.

What is the next step for Vick?

Vick will watch to see which of his three co-defendants will be the first to make a deal with federal prosecutors. Each of them will think seriously about turning on Vick and offering testimony against him in return for less time in jail. Vick obviously is the prime target of the government effort. Prosecutors and agents will be willing to talk with his co-defendants about a deal if they are willing to help prove the case against Vick. The government indictment discloses four witnesses who already have agreed to testify against him. If all three of his co-defendants join these four witnesses against Vick, he and his lawyers might suggest that he, too, should talk to the government about a deal that would minimize his time in jail.

Vick is charged with "conspiracy" and violations of the "Travel Act." What does that mean?

The conspiracy charge will make things extra difficult for Vick and his lawyers. Under federal laws, the conspiracy charge allows federal prosecutors to link Vick to things that occurred even if he was not present. If the prosecutors can connect the four defendants, crimes committed by one of them can be used to add to the evidence against the others. It's a tricky legal procedure that prosecutors love and defense lawyers detest. The Travel Act is a device invented by Robert F. Kennedy when he was U.S. Attorney General in the early '60s. It was designed for use against organized crime and made it easier to prove cases against hoodlums. In the sports world, it was used most recently in the Salt Lake City Winter Olympics bribery scandal. Federal prosecutors charged the Utah organizers under the Travel Act and proved millions of dollars in bribes. Vick, however, can take some hope from the fact that U.S. District Judge David Sam found the organizers not guilty of violating the Travel Act even though there was powerful evidence of bribery.

What was Vick's role in the dogfighting conspiracy described in the indictment?

According to the indictment, Vick was in the middle of everything from beginning to end. He purchased a vacant piece of property for $34,000, the indictment says. He then had sheds built for training dogs and staging fights and a fence erected to shield the operation from view. And finally, the indictment says, he had a two-story frame house with a basketball court put up as a residence for the people taking care of the dogs. If you believe the indictment, the Vick property had everything anyone could want in a dogfighting operation.

When would Vick's trial begin?

The federal courthouse in Richmond, Va., is the home of the nationally recognized "rocket docket." Cases move quickly in Richmond, more quickly than in any other courthouse in the federal system. Vick's lawyers will be looking for delays and for time to prepare a defense, but the trial likely would begin in a matter of four to six months.

Are the federal authorities in Richmond tough on crime?

Ask Ralph Sampson, the former NBA star. He fell behind in child support payments to seven children he had with four women, the kind of thing that ordinarily is worked out in a settlement. But instead of a settlement, Sampson found himself charged with felonies in federal court. Then, very quickly, he found himself in jail for two months on a child support charge. Yes, they're tough on crime in Richmond, and they might be particularly tough on crimes involving the torture and killing of dogs.

ESPN.com's Lester Munson is a Chicago lawyer and journalist who has been reporting on investigative and legal issues in the sports industry for 18 years.


Now I'm not the one to wish ill fate on people, but if all of this is true, I wish his ass burns in jail for a LONG time. Dog fighting is flat out evil.
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nyk4ever
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7/18/2007  2:17 PM
Not long ago Sportscenter was doing a piece on dogfighting and some of the video was just downright bonechilling. Being a dog-owner, I just don't get how people could do this to dogs man. It is just absolutely vicious and in-humane. I wish no ill-will towards Vick but if he gets charged then he's getting what he's got coming to him.
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Solace
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7/18/2007  2:20 PM
Terrible story. I agree with you, Allanfan. Anyone who does this deserves a long jail sentence. I consider the killing of dogs on the same level as the villian that Chris Benoit is for killing his own wife and kid.
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K22
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7/18/2007  2:39 PM
Posted by Solace:

Terrible story. I agree with you, Allanfan. Anyone who does this deserves a long jail sentence. I consider the killing of dogs on the same level as the villian that Chris Benoit is for killing his own wife and kid.

Well, there is a slight difference between this and Benoit's situation. Benoit was so juiced that he was out of his mind (not excusing his actions, mind you). Vick... is just DUMB.
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Bippity10
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7/18/2007  2:39 PM
How could you beat a dog to death(allegedly of course). If this is true, Vick is one sick individual. Amazing how such a talented family could be so troubled.
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Nalod
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7/18/2007  2:49 PM
Its amazing that we as a culture hold dogs in such high esteem where in some countries the are as common as chickens.

ANd cruelty to animals is messed up but such a severe crime?

I think the basis of this is the fact such crimes, especially for VIck whom bankrolled this is the infrastruture of illegal gambling which is tax fraud and of course illegal.

Its one thing to be like Qwoods and have some dogs but Vick apparently was behind this and your dealing with some pretty heavy dudes in that world.

I can imagine that Vick, even if he was taken advantage of might not be so happy to snitch these heavy dudes out of fear of what can be done to him.
Solace
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7/18/2007  2:57 PM
Posted by K22:
Posted by Solace:

Terrible story. I agree with you, Allanfan. Anyone who does this deserves a long jail sentence. I consider the killing of dogs on the same level as the villian that Chris Benoit is for killing his own wife and kid.

Well, there is a slight difference between this and Benoit's situation. Benoit was so juiced that he was out of his mind (not excusing his actions, mind you). Vick... is just DUMB.

That's a fair point and there's certainly a difference, yes.
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Andrew
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7/18/2007  3:00 PM
The situation looks bleak for Vick. From an ESPN article...

...the feds own a conviction rate of better than 95 percent. The government typically doesn't indict unless it knows it can probably convict, and that should be unsettling news for the Falcons and their quarterback
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kam77
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7/18/2007  3:03 PM
America is a little too obsessed with Dog welfare. Nobody wants to see this happen, but there's a double-standard in this country when guys like Vick are prosecuted for Dog fighting while the chicken fighting mafia goes unchecked. What about my chickens!
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franco12
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7/18/2007  3:09 PM
money don't make people smarter.
BigSm00th
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7/18/2007  3:44 PM
down with government!

as horrible as dog fighting is, go find bin laden and stop wasting your time with this nonsense. there are more important things.
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nyk4ever
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7/18/2007  3:45 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

down with government!

as horrible as dog fighting is, go find bin laden and stop wasting your time with this nonsense. there are more important things.

So we should stop arresting people until we find Bin Laden?
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Allanfan20
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7/18/2007  3:56 PM
Posted by BigSm00th:

down with government!

as horrible as dog fighting is, go find bin laden and stop wasting your time with this nonsense. there are more important things.

OK so you go find Bin Laden, b/c the greatest and most skilled people on Earth at doing stuff like that have been trying since 9/11 and couldn't do it.

Oh and for the record, what if one of those fighting pit bulls escapes from his/her "Home" and attacks a person, b/c that's basically how the dog was raised. That happens plenty of times btw. Are there more important things then?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TMS
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7/18/2007  4:09 PM
i'm pretty sure the CIA & NSA could care less about Michael Vick & his fighting pitbulls.
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Masterplan
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7/18/2007  4:10 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BigSm00th:

down with government!

as horrible as dog fighting is, go find bin laden and stop wasting your time with this nonsense. there are more important things.

So we should stop arresting people until we find Bin Laden?

wow

good response, better than any of the stuff that came to my mind when i read that post.
Pharzeone
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7/18/2007  5:42 PM
I am indifferent to dog fighting. I am however amuse at how people are outraged at dog fighting versus other inhumane acts against animals such as game hunting (how is shooting a deer with a 30 caliber rifle a sport), dog racing and horse racing. Dog racing is just as bad as dog fighting. Those dogs are starved and conditioned to run those races. I don't even want to go there with the way horses are treated.
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Allanfan20
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7/18/2007  5:46 PM
From everything I learned, those horses are treated like Kings. I never heard anything of the sort about how grey hounds are treated, but in case you didn't know, they are naturally very skinny, and are normally built with almost the same exact frame as a cheetah. Thin stomach, HUGE chest, all that.

I'm not an advocate of any kind of animal cruelty, for that matter. And I hate people hunting animals just for sport too. Believe me, I'm very consistent. However, dog fighting just seems to top it all.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Solace
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7/18/2007  6:03 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

I am indifferent to dog fighting. I am however amuse at how people are outraged at dog fighting versus other inhumane acts against animals such as game hunting (how is shooting a deer with a 30 caliber rifle a sport), dog racing and horse racing. Dog racing is just as bad as dog fighting. Those dogs are starved and conditioned to run those races. I don't even want to go there with the way horses are treated.

So then I guess you have no problem with the allegation that dogs that didn't fit the bill were killed? This goes outside of your average dog fighting.
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Pharzeone
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7/18/2007  6:09 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

From everything I learned, those horses are treated like Kings. I never heard anything of the sort about how grey hounds are treated, but in case you didn't know, they are naturally very skinny, and are normally built with almost the same exact frame as a cheetah. Thin stomach, HUGE chest, all that.

I'm not an advocate of any kind of animal cruelty, for that matter. And I hate people hunting animals just for sport too. Believe me, I'm very consistent. However, dog fighting just seems to top it all.

Struggling to Survive

Greyhounds are at a disadvantage even before they are born. Tens of thousands of greyhounds are bred annually, many more than are needed to race, in an attempt to create the fastest dogs. The greyhounds are then "weeded out"—killed if they are at any time determined unable to become racetrack stars.

"From the time they are born, they are judged for their racing ability," says Laura Bevan, director of the Southeast Regional Office of The HSUS. "As puppies they may be killed, or culled, if they don't have potential to be good racers. After that, any injury or slow down of speed can mean death. The dogs are a commercial product, and once it is determined that they don't have value as a racer at a track, their days are numbered."

Throughout their racing career, the dogs routinely endure inhumane conditions and have little human contact. "Many greyhound farms are barely getting by financially, so the dogs are kept caged most of the time and fed low quality foods. Each dog is a major expense, which is why so many are killed when they are deemed unfit to race," says Bevan.

In addition, greyhounds are very vulnerable to injury. According to Theil, thousands of racing dogs are injured each year nationwide. The most common miseries are bone fractures and soft tissue injuries. Less common afflictions include spinal injuries, seizures, and death from cardiac arrest.
- The Humane Society

The Horses that win races are treated like Kings, I agree. Check the Humane Society site to see what happens to the ones who are not successful.
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Pharzeone
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7/18/2007  6:11 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by Pharzeone:

I am indifferent to dog fighting. I am however amuse at how people are outraged at dog fighting versus other inhumane acts against animals such as game hunting (how is shooting a deer with a 30 caliber rifle a sport), dog racing and horse racing. Dog racing is just as bad as dog fighting. Those dogs are starved and conditioned to run those races. I don't even want to go there with the way horses are treated.

So then I guess you have no problem with the allegation that dogs that didn't fit the bill were killed? This goes outside of your average dog fighting.

See my response to Allanfan above.

[Edited by - Pharzeone on 18-07-2007 11:11 AM]
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OT: Looks like Michael Vick is screwed:

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