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"we don't need offense as much as we need perimeter defense."
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EnySpree
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7/5/2007  3:16 PM
I'm quoting Franco here. I'm not attacking you dude cuz this seems to be the new "thing" amongst knick fans.

How do you get a perimeter defender? Do the knicks trade craw for raja bell? Do the get deshawn Stevenson? Do the get Ira newble?

I'm confused by the statement that we need a perimeter defender. TMS is a good perimeter defender. Should the knicks target him?

In my book, offense wins games cuz no matter what you have to score more than the other team.

The knicks main problem is staying with shooters. They leave guys open all the time cuz they are too busy doubling for nor reason. Everyone is guilty of it even Q who everyone thinks is this lockdown guy. How often have guys been on the left side doubling some joker like Ben Wallace only to have hinrich or gordan of all people open all day just practicing their form? Its not even a good team like the bulls. The knicks leave everyone open. Its bad coaching.

Now I say that but isiah has manned up on that saying that he takes the blame for that. He should. You don't trade a Crawford just to get perimeter defense. All craw has to do is not leave his man to double Brendan gaywood. Nate does it, Q does it, marbs does it. Everybody. That **** is a killer. You can just leave a dude like Damon Jones open. He is not gonna impact the game any other way so why leave him open?

Anyway I think its a coaching problem and isiah has said as recently as the zack press conference that the knicks will concentrate on that so they won't get beat by the 3. That's the only way to correct it.

No freakin way do you trade for a guy cuz he is good at staying with his man. Bruce Bowen is the only exception cuz he plays on the perfect machine known as san Antonio.

I continue to believe that defense is a team concept. You can rely on a shotblocker to block or change every shot down low. You can expect a guy to chase around rip, ray, j-rich,gordon, Vince, etc everynight and lock them down below their averages. The team has to do it together and communicate.

Again no way do you trade craw cuz a guy is supposedly a better defender. If its J-rich then yeah I do it cuz J-rich can defend and score. No way do you trade craw for some of the other names I mentioned above. No freakin way.
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TMS
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7/5/2007  3:17 PM
you're damn skippy the Knicks should target me... i can wash a towel like nobody's business!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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7/5/2007  3:20 PM
Posted by TMS:

you're damn skippy the Knicks should target me... i can wash a towel like nobody's business!

and i hear you make some good pork fried rice too!!!
TMS
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7/5/2007  3:22 PM
in all seriousness, i have to disagree with you here bro... defensive teams win championships... we had 7 guys on the roster averaging in double figures last year & it netted us 33 wins... in comparison, the Spurs had only 3 guys average in double figures, but the difference is that team plays excellent team defense, plays a very intelligent style of game & knows how to control the pace of a game better than any other to suit their style... our team can score the ball with the best of them... it's the other areas that need to be addressed on this team... that's why i was so puzzled about the Zach trade (sorry to bring that up again, just using it as an example)... we need a shotblocker & perimeter defender in the worst way, & a guy who knows how to control the tempo of the game & orchestrate (if Steph decides to put his mind to it i think he can handle that part decently well this year, but he's slowly but surely approaching Ron Artest levels of insanity the more i listen to him speak)
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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7/5/2007  3:22 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TMS:

you're damn skippy the Knicks should target me... i can wash a towel like nobody's business!

and i hear you make some good pork fried rice too!!!

no, but i can make a mean bowl of chunky soup!
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MS
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7/5/2007  3:29 PM
Anyway I think its a coaching problem and isiah has said as recently as the zack press conference that the knicks will concentrate on that so they won't get beat by the 3. That's the only way to correct it.

I am reading this an laughing because Isiah can't correct this. He is going to get Nate and Jamal to play defense? He plays one of the worst defenders at his position 37 minutes a night and thats not really going to change.

Isiah is a liar, he says one thing and does another, and then he smiles and everyone begins to believe, we were making the playoffs. The man has very little concept of what he is doing, much like McChale, Ainge, Jordan, Bird and so many other legends. Players don't motivate themselves and winning isn't that important, to get paid is the goal of most nba players.......

Again: Spurs, Cavs, Detriot, Bulls, are all very good defensive teams defensive teams win in this league come playoff time

Compare Crawford and Artest
Crawford 17.6pts 4.4ass 3.2rbs 2.7tos 1.0stls 40%fg 32%3fg 15fga 37min
Artest 18.8pts 3.1ass 6.5rbs 2.1tos 2.1stls 44%fg 36%3fg 15fga 38min

What is the big deal with trading this kid, he may flourish and i hope he does, he is a good kid but making this switch at the sg position you can take away 4-5 points every night. You can't play Crawford big minutes with Curry it doesn't work, how is it going to work with randolf, three bad defenders getting 35 minutes a night we are going to have to score like the suns who have three guys that can play a little defense in their starting lineup and they have a guy that makes the game easy for everyone. We need defense
daddynel
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7/5/2007  3:29 PM
artest...
nixluva
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7/5/2007  4:42 PM
Still people actually believe that Isiah doesn't know what he's doing. For one thing when isiah says that it's his fault that we didn't properly guard the perimeter you'd have to be a FOOL to think that he doesn't know the importance of this or how to teach them what to do. If you look at how angry he was with Nate for REPEATEDLY leaving his man open on the perimeter even after he just told him to stick with the guy, then you would realize that it's the players and not the coach. They are the ones who keep making the mistakes.

Just imagine that you're on the court and every single night you get beat the same way. How long do you think it would take for someone, anyone to say stay with your man? You think none of the hundred bench coaches might mention this? A fan courtside. Other players on the floor? We just had guys our there not thinking about what they were doing. Not realizing the situation. Like knowing that the only way a team can beat you is with a 3. For whatever reason at least one guy in each possession failed to do the right thing or missed a rotation.

Overall the D had good long stretches in every game where they played great, but then they go on to lose after the team got back in the game, cuz they couldn't sustain the defensive effort. What we need is better focus on D. More trust too. Often we had 3 guys guarding one penetrator, cuz no one trusted their teammate who was supposed to help out, so they all came and left guys wide open. I can assure you that Isiah who played great for knight and Daley knows how to defend the perimeter. You don't forget that just because you're not on the floor. GEEZ! Did any of you forget what you know about the game just cuz your not playing on a team right now? I'm so tired of this crap.
Panos
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7/5/2007  4:54 PM
Posted by nixluva:

Still people actually believe that Isiah doesn't know what he's doing. For one thing when isiah says that it's his fault that we didn't properly guard the perimeter you'd have to be a FOOL to think that he doesn't know the importance of this or how to teach them what to do. If you look at how angry he was with Nate for REPEATEDLY leaving his man open on the perimeter even after he just told him to stick with the guy, then you would realize that it's the players and not the coach. They are the ones who keep making the mistakes.

Just imagine that you're on the court and every single night you get beat the same way. How long do you think it would take for someone, anyone to say stay with your man? You think none of the hundred bench coaches might mention this? A fan courtside. Other players on the floor? We just had guys our there not thinking about what they were doing. Not realizing the situation. Like knowing that the only way a team can beat you is with a 3. For whatever reason at least one guy in each possession failed to do the right thing or missed a rotation.

Overall the D had good long stretches in every game where they played great, but then they go on to lose after the team got back in the game, cuz they couldn't sustain the defensive effort. What we need is better focus on D. More trust too. Often we had 3 guys guarding one penetrator, cuz no one trusted their teammate who was supposed to help out, so they all came and left guys wide open. I can assure you that Isiah who played great for knight and Daley knows how to defend the perimeter. You don't forget that just because you're not on the floor. GEEZ! Did any of you forget what you know about the game just cuz your not playing on a team right now? I'm so tired of this crap.

Dude whatever. Bottom line is they don't excute. Until they do, what you are saying is crap. Proof is in the pudding.
Actually go to MSG and watch a game. From the stands, you can actually see the guy on the opposing team that's open that is going to get the kick out and hit an outside shot before it happens. It's really painful.
franco12
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7/5/2007  4:54 PM
I'm so touched to see my quote up there in lights

This was in the hypothetical Jones Vs Crawford - and my point is we have enough scoring on this team- we need some guys that can keep their man in front of them.

And- I'll agree with you that coaching plays a part.

But Defense is like a lot of stuff in the game of basketball- either you get it or you don't.

And Crawford isn't a great man on man defender- few of our guys are- its sad that Balkman and Collins are the only ones we can all agree on are great defenders.

And to TMS's point- the Spurs won it all- and did they score over 100 in the finals? I dunno.

Dallas, GS & Phoenix- all failed- granted, I think the Suns got short changed a bit and could have made it.

And, I wish the NBA would be consistent between the regular season when they call ticky tack fouls vs. the play offs where you could run the opposing player out and not get called for a foul.

Who knows- if the refs did get consistent, maybe offense would start to win over solid defense.

But all the recent NBA Champions have won with Defense.
nixluva
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7/5/2007  5:07 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by nixluva:

Still people actually believe that Isiah doesn't know what he's doing. For one thing when isiah says that it's his fault that we didn't properly guard the perimeter you'd have to be a FOOL to think that he doesn't know the importance of this or how to teach them what to do. If you look at how angry he was with Nate for REPEATEDLY leaving his man open on the perimeter even after he just told him to stick with the guy, then you would realize that it's the players and not the coach. They are the ones who keep making the mistakes.

Just imagine that you're on the court and every single night you get beat the same way. How long do you think it would take for someone, anyone to say stay with your man? You think none of the hundred bench coaches might mention this? A fan courtside. Other players on the floor? We just had guys our there not thinking about what they were doing. Not realizing the situation. Like knowing that the only way a team can beat you is with a 3. For whatever reason at least one guy in each possession failed to do the right thing or missed a rotation.

Overall the D had good long stretches in every game where they played great, but then they go on to lose after the team got back in the game, cuz they couldn't sustain the defensive effort. What we need is better focus on D. More trust too. Often we had 3 guys guarding one penetrator, cuz no one trusted their teammate who was supposed to help out, so they all came and left guys wide open. I can assure you that Isiah who played great for knight and Daley knows how to defend the perimeter. You don't forget that just because you're not on the floor. GEEZ! Did any of you forget what you know about the game just cuz your not playing on a team right now? I'm so tired of this crap.
Dude whatever. Bottom line is they don't excute. Until they do, what you are saying is crap. Proof is in the pudding.
Actually go to MSG and watch a game. From the stands, you can actually see the guy on the opposing team that's open that is going to get the kick out and hit an outside shot before it happens. It's really painful.

You can't say anything to refute what i've said and all you can do is parrot that they don't execute. WOW that's news to all of us. I was just saying that in my post or did you not even read it? I never said anything about them actually being able to execute, I was talking about Isiah either Knowing or not knowing how important it is to defend the perimeter and to convey that to his players. My point if you were actually reading what I wrote was that it's ridiculous to suggest that after years of being coached by some of the greatest coaches and he himself being able to defend the perimeter on one of the greatest D teams, that he's somehow forgotten how to do that. He's hasn't forgotten and he's been vocal even during games when his players don't defend on the perimeter. He sees the game films and I POSITIVE that he can recognize you see from the stands and more. What's more is the guy added players in the last 2 drafts that have the ability to defend. If he wasn't aware he would just take all offensive guys, but he didn't do that.

What is your problem with me anyway? Did I call you out in my post or make any specific comment to you? Were my points wrong or invalid in any way? IF so point it out.
TMS
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7/5/2007  5:15 PM
nix, you said that some of us still don't think Isiah knows what he's doing & Panos cited the W-L record... that pretty much sums it up, don't you think? take a look at the cap & our W-L records over the time he's been here & for the next several years... it's not a pretty site & doesn't suggest that Isiah knows what he's doing.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nixluva
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7/5/2007  5:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

nix, you said that some of us still don't think Isiah knows what he's doing & Panos cited the W-L record... that pretty much sums it up, don't you think? take a look at the cap & our W-L records over the time he's been here & for the next several years... it's not a pretty site & doesn't suggest that Isiah knows what he's doing.

You guys can't get off a preconceived notion about a guy once you get on it stuck in your head. Nixluva must be blind to W-L, cuz he is optimistic. How about actually dealing with the subject of the thread and my comments to that effect? My post was in regard to the subject of thread, Perimeter D. I ask you not about W-L records but how it is that you think Isiah's suddenly forgotten everything he knows about D and how important it is? Did he not look to add 4 recent draft picks that have the physical tools to defend? He obviously wasn't happy with Nate, Francis or Jared when they blew assignments. That was visible to all. He himself played D and was on some of the greatest defensive teams ever and now you want to have me believe that he doesn't know a thing or two about D? None of his coaches either? COME ON!

Honestly the fact that we haven't been able to defend isn't all due to Isiah no coaching it. Everyone here knows that we've had mostly offensive players and he's looked to rectify that by adding Jared, Balkman, Collins and to a lesser extent even Chandler and Nichols have some ability to defend. Chandler was noted for his shotblocking. He had 47 this year. Both draft picks are long and quick. To me it's more than obvious that tho he took the blame it's the players who have to suck it up and perform. Steph actually stepped up his defense and we've seen Q defend hard when he was physically able.
Bonn1997
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7/5/2007  5:39 PM
All we need are some more low post scorers. Then we're set.
TMS
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7/5/2007  5:42 PM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:

nix, you said that some of us still don't think Isiah knows what he's doing & Panos cited the W-L record... that pretty much sums it up, don't you think? take a look at the cap & our W-L records over the time he's been here & for the next several years... it's not a pretty site & doesn't suggest that Isiah knows what he's doing.

You guys can't get off a preconceived notion about a guy once you get on it stuck in your head. Nixluva must be blind to W-L, cuz he is optimistic. How about actually dealing with the subject of the thread and my comments to that effect? My post was in regard to the subject of thread, Perimeter D. I ask you not about W-L records but how it is that you think Isiah's suddenly forgotten everything he knows about D and how important it is? Did he not look to add 4 recent draft picks that have the physical tools to defend? He obviously wasn't happy with Nate, Francis or Jared when they blew assignments. That was visible to all. He himself played D and was on some of the greatest defensive teams ever and now you want to have me believe that he doesn't know a thing or two about D? None of his coaches either? COME ON!

Honestly the fact that we haven't been able to defend isn't all due to Isiah no coaching it. Everyone here knows that we've had mostly offensive players and he's looked to rectify that by adding Jared, Balkman, Collins and to a lesser extent even Chandler and Nichols have some ability to defend. Chandler was noted for his shotblocking. He had 47 this year. Both draft picks are long and quick. To me it's more than obvious that tho he took the blame it's the players who have to suck it up and perform. Steph actually stepped up his defense and we've seen Q defend hard when he was physically able.


it's not about not knowing defense or not knowing how to coach... i'm saying if Isiah knew what he was doing he'd have brought in the type of players that would fill the lack of defense on this team by now... a good shotblocker to defend the paint... a shutdown perimeter defender... not looking at guys who don't fill the noticeable needs on this team & choose instead to address an area on this team that did not need to be addressed.
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Allanfan20
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7/5/2007  5:51 PM
I agree with enyspree that a good solid and smart offensive squad is as important as defense, but the thing is this. While we have a bad team defense b/c I agree we leave guys open ALL THE TIME, it's also the effort a lot of these guys just don't put into it, as well as the knowledge on how to play the defensive side of the ball and how to approach certain things. Having Artest alone with be decent but he's not the cureall, and his baggage is everything the Knicks don't need with Randbury still on the squad. The "Yoots" need someone to look up to and Artest isn't one.

Enyspree, if we want to improve our team defense, we gotto trade the entire team.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Panos
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7/5/2007  5:54 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by TMS:

nix, you said that some of us still don't think Isiah knows what he's doing & Panos cited the W-L record... that pretty much sums it up, don't you think? take a look at the cap & our W-L records over the time he's been here & for the next several years... it's not a pretty site & doesn't suggest that Isiah knows what he's doing.

You guys can't get off a preconceived notion about a guy once you get on it stuck in your head. Nixluva must be blind to W-L, cuz he is optimistic. How about actually dealing with the subject of the thread and my comments to that effect? My post was in regard to the subject of thread, Perimeter D. I ask you not about W-L records but how it is that you think Isiah's suddenly forgotten everything he knows about D and how important it is? Did he not look to add 4 recent draft picks that have the physical tools to defend? He obviously wasn't happy with Nate, Francis or Jared when they blew assignments. That was visible to all. He himself played D and was on some of the greatest defensive teams ever and now you want to have me believe that he doesn't know a thing or two about D? None of his coaches either? COME ON!

Honestly the fact that we haven't been able to defend isn't all due to Isiah no coaching it. Everyone here knows that we've had mostly offensive players and he's looked to rectify that by adding Jared, Balkman, Collins and to a lesser extent even Chandler and Nichols have some ability to defend. Chandler was noted for his shotblocking. He had 47 this year. Both draft picks are long and quick. To me it's more than obvious that tho he took the blame it's the players who have to suck it up and perform. Steph actually stepped up his defense and we've seen Q defend hard when he was physically able.


it's not about not knowing defense or not knowing how to coach... i'm saying if Isiah knew what he was doing he'd have brought in the type of players that would fill the lack of defense on this team by now... a good shotblocker to defend the paint... a shutdown perimeter defender... not looking at guys who don't fill the noticeable needs on this team & choose instead to address an area on this team that did not need to be addressed.

EXACTLY. What difference does it make if Coach Isiah knows that they are not playing good D if GM Isiah gets one way players for the team's construction. I don't give a crap if he knows that they are not playing good D if there is no way to make them play it.
Anji
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7/5/2007  6:32 PM
Posted by EnySpree:

The knicks main problem is staying with shooters. They leave guys open all the time cuz they are too busy doubling for nor reason. Everyone is guilty of it even Q who everyone thinks is this lockdown guy. How often have guys been on the left side doubling some joker like Ben Wallace only to have hinrich or gordan of all people open all day just practicing their form? Its not even a good team like the bulls. The knicks leave everyone open. Its bad coaching.
+1million



Not the Dunk, the play after.......... watch what happens and re-read this manspost.


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Allanfan20
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7/5/2007  6:49 PM
Lucky miss, Crawford and the guy guarding the shooter (Either Curry or Richardson) came out unaggresively. Jamal had his back to his man for crying out loud.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Anji
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7/5/2007  7:08 PM
^^^ LOL, god some of you are like brick walls.


But the real answer is, we get sucked into the paint too deep all the time worrying about penetration. We are always giving up wide open shots like this, which the thread stater was pointing out.

[Edited by - Anji on 07-05-2007 7:10 PM]
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
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