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Overall We're A Fan Base That Has No Standards
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TrueBlue
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7/2/2007  1:00 PM
There exist a minority that of course doesn't accept what's been happening the past 4yrs.

Overall though we have a very apologetic and low standard fan base. I don't know if this regime has conditioned the fans this way or if it's the nature of most here.

We've had 4 consecutive losing seasons under I SAY UGH's tenure. One of them netted a playoff appearance but the results were beyond embarrassing. The payroll is without limits. We have a roster filled with more guys you're forced to like vs liking them by nature. No leaders, no All-Stars, no Superstars,

Yesterday and probably even today I read/I'll read posts with the gumption to call out other teams acquisitions stating overspending(i.e. Kapono, Carter, Bulls over reached for Wallace etc etc) but defended at the time the signings of Jeffries, James, and trading for bloated contracts in(Marbury, Penny, Mo Taylor, Francis, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose). We should never make fun of any other franchise for what they may do or will do over the next 3yrs or so concerning acquisitions.

With Bip's recent posts it led me to create this thread because I think many here are cut from the same cloth in the line of thinking that because no one believes I SAY UGH would or could control the cap then all trades such as the Randolph one is fair game and acceptable. THAT'S COMPLETE UTTER ********


That's like a Detroit Lions Fan saying "You know I doubt Matt Millen will ever address our QB and RB positions or any other area positions of need so I'm ecstatic he drafted another Top 3 Sexy Wide Receiver Prospect for the 4rth time out of 5yrs as our first round selection". No their fans are showing up to games looking(like fools in some respects) holding up "Fire Millen" signs or plastering cardboard cutouts of him to their face at their games. I respect those fans a whole lot more than I do most of our fans because their standard is about winning. They want to win and they want to see a team managed in the correct capacity. I'm assured another failed season from Millen and he's gone. The fans need to be credited for this result.





The same can be said of Portland fans, they said enough is enough with the Jailblazers and this was during some periods when they were making the playoffs. Their fans stopped showing up to the arena, Mgmt got rid of coach(es) and GM and hired well qualified replacements. They got rid of the players that were causing the qualified coach/players problems(Patterson and Randolph). They gained control of their cap situation and brought in high character players to rebuild with(vets and rookies). Their franchise is on the uprise largely due to their fans.


Unfortunately as for us Knick fans we take the Spike Lee route. We think some day they'll be a medal of honor showing up in the mail or on our door step thanking and honoring us as fans for supporting I SAY UGH, DOLAN, and the likes. Spike Lee is a dedicated fan and face to this franchise but he's just as big of Moron as anyone else. I'm actually embarrassed, of him and others being as serious and genuine as possible here. I understand we have differences of opinions but some things I feel just aren't acceptable from what I'm reading from our COMROD'S(LOL @ Steph for this). I honestly feel because I SAY UGH hasn't received outright revolt from fans and they keep showing up to the Garden just enough is a reason but not the main reason I SAY UGH keeps retaining his position.


I'm looking forward to the time we move on from all of this. I don't know when that will be but unless serious changes are made, vision wise or with personnel it will be 34yrs and counting for a while.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-02-2007 12:01 PM]

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-02-2007 12:22 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
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Bippity10
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7/2/2007  1:36 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

There exist a minority that of course doesn't accept what's been happening the past 4yrs.

Overall though we have a very apologetic and low standard fan base. I don't know if this regime has conditioned the fans this way or if it's the nature of most here.

We've had 4 consecutive losing seasons under I SAY UGH's tenure. One of them netted a playoff appearance but the results were beyond embarrassing. The payroll is without limits. We have a roster filled with more guys you're forced to like vs liking them by nature. No leaders, no All-Stars, no Superstars,

Yesterday and probably even today I read/I'll read posts with the gumption to call out other teams acquisitions stating overspending(i.e. Kapono, Carter, Bulls over reached for Wallace etc etc) but defended at the time the signings of Jeffries, James, and trading for bloated contracts in(Marbury, Penny, Mo Taylor, Francis, Jalen Rose, Malik Rose). We should never make fun of any other franchise for what they may do or will do over the next 3yrs or so concerning acquisitions.

With Bip's recent posts it led me to create this thread because I think many here are cut from the same cloth in the line of thinking that because no one believes I SAY UGH would or could control the cap then all trades such as the Randolph one is fair game and acceptable. THAT'S COMPLETE UTTER ********


That's like a Detroit Lions Fan saying "You know I doubt Matt Millen will ever address our QB and RB positions or any other area positions of need so I'm ecstatic he drafted another Top 3 Sexy Wide Receiver Prospect for the 4rth time out of 5yrs as our first round selection. No their fans are showing up to games looking(like fools in some respects) holding up "Fire Millen" signs or plastering cardboard cutouts of him to their face at their games. I respect those fans a whole lot more than I do most of our fans because their standard is about winning. They want to win and they want to see a team managed in the correct capacity. I'm assured another failed season from Millen and he's gone. The fans need to be credited for this result.





The same can be said of Portland fans, they said enough is enough with the Jailblazers and this was during some periods when they were making the playoffs. Their fans stopped showing up to the arena, Mgmt got rid of coach(es) and GM and hired well qualified replacements. They got rid of the players that were causing the qualified coach/players problems(Patterson and Randolph). They gained control of their cap situation and brought in high character players to rebuild with(vets and rookies). Their franchise is on the uprise largely due to their fans.


Unfortunately as for us Knick fans we take the Spike Lee route. We think some day they'll be a medal of honor showing up in the mail or on our door step thanking and honoring us as fans for supporting I SAY UGH, DOLAN, and the likes. Spike Lee is a dedicated fan and face to this franchise but he's just as big of Moron as anyone else. I'm actually embarrassed, of him and others being as serious and genuine as possible here. I understand we have differences of opinions but some things I feel just aren't acceptable from what I'm reading from our COMROD'S(LOL @ Steph for this). I honestly feel because I SAY UGH hasn't received outright revolt from fans and they keep showing up to the Garden just enough is a reason but not the main reason I SAY UGH keeps retaining his position.


I'm looking forward to the time we move on from all of this. I don't know when that will be but unless serious changes are made, vision wise or with personnel it will be 34yrs and counting for a while.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-02-2007 12:01 PM]

TrueBlue: I am personally 100% agreement with you that fans have lowered their standards. I personally can't beleive that Isiah has been allowed to make the amount of moves he has made without seeing results and still keep his job. I personally think his spin machine should be studied by failed business men everywhere. He is is the master of buying time and saving his job without showing results. As long as he is my GM I know he is not getting under the cap and am not going to sit back and wait for him to do so. I know he is going to go for more and more reclamation projects, building talent isntead of wins. I know that we will strive to be good and fill the seats instead of being great. I know all this, and now have come to expect it.

What you forget is that I called this 7 years ago. Don't come to me like this is something new. I told you that until they put a proven winner in the GM and coaches spot that could get on the same page and work without being challenged that this is the route we are taking. I have no delusions of grandeur now that Zach is a part of this team. I have no confidence that Isiah will lead us to anything above just being okay.

My analyzation of that trade did not excuse what it does to our cap space. I'm fully aware of the ramifications of adding two more years. But I was under no delusions that Isiah's next move was going to be fiscally responsible. So I lowered my standards and accepted this fact. I just prayed that when he made the next move at least it would be someone who had talent(not a Jeffries or a JJ etc) and would at least provide me with a semi interesting season to watch, instead of the abysmal crap I've been seeing.

In the meantime I will hope and pray that Eddie will learn the importance of rebounding and defending, Zach will understand the importance of not going to jail, Stephon will understand that the world doesn't hate him, they just want his dedication to his team and so on and so on. Hey if all of this happens we actually could have a good team. So to God I pray.

You ask if my standards are lower and the answer is yes. Until we get proven winners in place in this organization I have no choice but to have lower standards. If you grab a 2 year old and put them in the front office and they made a trade that got me Zach Randolf for Stevie Francis and Channing Frye, I would still understand the ramifications to the cap. But I would be proud of the kid for not doing something devestatingly stupid. That's how I look at things now. Good post TrueBlue.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 02-07-2007 1:37 PM]
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TrueBlue
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7/2/2007  1:52 PM
Bip this trade was no different than the Marbury or Francis trade. You could even throw the Jamal trade in there considering what was given up vs talent.


All I read and hear in your posts is I'm giving him another mulligan.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bippity10
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7/2/2007  1:57 PM
Where are you getting that I am giving him a mulligan? How are you jumping to this conclusion? Because I'm not ranting and raving about the cap space?

Here is a direct quote from my post:

Typical Isiah trade. Go for a guy with a career losing record and then hope to rehabilitate him. Once again the talent level of the team goes up after an Isiah trade, but the question marks persist. All of us are still wondering if we will be able to win, despite the leap forward in talent. Why? Because Isiah never targets guys that are proven winners.

How am I giving him a mulligan? Is it because I'm not ranting about the same things that you are? This trade does not kill us. Does it turn us into a title contender or a future power? I don't beleive so. But I don't think this trade is a killer. Would I have made it? No. Is it a killer? No.
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Bippity10
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7/2/2007  1:58 PM
If we are criticing Isiah as a GM, my opinion has not changed. He has so far been a bad GM that has shown no results. But my post was not meant to critique Isiah, it was meant to analyze a single trade.
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VDesai
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7/2/2007  2:19 PM
I wouldn't say we have no standards. You're referring to maybe 3 or 4 posters on the board (who happen to be very vocal, but that's cause they are pushing an unpopular agenda) who show some acceptance or even favor for this regime. If you're saying that people can't give credit or decry a move on an acquisition by acquistion basis than you're just as extreme as the other side.

But there are standards here. Look at all the no shows in the garden. The boos. The "selltheknicks" and "firelayden" dot coms. People expect and want more from this franchise, but we can't depose an owner. What do you want them to do?

tkf
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7/2/2007  2:45 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I wouldn't say we have no standards. You're referring to maybe 3 or 4 posters on the board (who happen to be very vocal, but that's cause they are pushing an unpopular agenda) who show some acceptance or even favor for this regime. If you're saying that people can't give credit or decry a move on an acquisition by acquistion basis than you're just as extreme as the other side.

But there are standards here. Look at all the no shows in the garden. The boos. The "selltheknicks" and "firelayden" dot coms. People expect and want more from this franchise, but we can't depose an owner. What do you want them to do?

good post and I agree. Now as far as the blazers fans being responsible for their so called rise. please! they got lucky with the draft this year, made a good pick last year in ROY and last time I checked they still were a lottery team. but may I ask, they got rid of these so called trouble makers, guys like sheed who went on to lead detroit to a title, I guess the fans get credit for that one too?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
TMS
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7/2/2007  5:26 PM
clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes... if we can't field a roster full of overpaid underachievers & guys that play no defense while being capped out til my grandchildren are born, what's the point in even being a Knicks fan?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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7/2/2007  5:44 PM
clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes...

True. We're not a backwater expansion team and won't build/re-build like one. We use money to win. If we don't win, its a shame because money is our strength.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TrueBlue
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7/2/2007  5:48 PM
Posted by TMS:

clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes... if we can't field a roster full of overpaid underachievers & guys that play no defense while being capped out til my grandchildren are born, what's the point in even being a Knicks fan?


It's not like most knowledgeable fans believed they would actually follow through with the financial flexibility talk but we did see that the franchise was 2 yrs away from it. If it was going to be sacrificed why is it for Zach Randolph? Most post since the trade are in favor of it, there is frequent rebuttal not to be worried about our future cap situation, and the poll showed Zach is favored. When fans are justifying Zach maintaining his 20/10 in New York vs Lee maintaining his double double play, you know something is wrong. We also might as well forget about Curry's rebounding improving on this team.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TrueBlue
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7/2/2007  5:49 PM
Posted by kam77:
clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes...

True. We're not a backwater expansion team and won't build/re-build like one. We use money to win. If we don't win, its a shame because money is our strength.

Explain to me in terms of wins and losses how money is our strength or has it been our weakness?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TMS
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7/2/2007  5:59 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:

clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes... if we can't field a roster full of overpaid underachievers & guys that play no defense while being capped out til my grandchildren are born, what's the point in even being a Knicks fan?


It's not like most knowledgeable fans believed they would actually follow through with the financial flexibility talk but we did see that the franchise was 2 yrs away from it. If it was going to be sacrificed why is it for Zach Randolph? Most post since the trade are in favor of it, there is frequent rebuttal not to be worried about our future cap situation, and the poll showed Zach is favored. When fans are justifying Zach maintaining his 20/10 in New York vs Lee maintaining his double double play, you know something is wrong. We also might as well forget about Curry's rebounding improving on this team.


if we don't see a regression in Curry's play this year i'll be shocked... i'm hoping this Zach acquisition doesn't negatively effect his development... i thought we saw some real progress from him last season.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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7/2/2007  6:05 PM
A strength, mis-used is as bad as a weakness. Just because you may have something going for you, doesn't mean you're using it wisely.

A hot chick can walk down the street and attract male attention in different ways. She can look trampy or she can dress herself up elegantly. Either way, she uses her strength. In one way she can maximize it by landing a rich husband. In another way, she can waste her strength by standin on the corner turnin tricks.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
TrueBlue
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7/2/2007  6:11 PM
Posted by kam77:

A strength, mis-used is as bad as a weakness. Just because you may have something going for you, doesn't mean you're using it wisely.

A hot chick can walk down the street and attract male attention in different ways. She can look trampy or she can dress herself up elegantly. Either way, she uses her strength. In one way she can maximize it by landing a rich husband. In another way, she can waste her strength by standin on the corner turnin tricks.



Us having Money at our disposal hasn't proved anything but failure. IMO I see it as our weakness. If you get 100 at bats you just might hit 1 out of the park with no approach or technique at the plate, just swing as hard as you can.... that's our methodology.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 07-02-2007 5:19 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
kam77
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7/2/2007  6:18 PM
Yeah, Isiah been turnin tricks. Tryin to land our very own Richard Gere.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bippity10
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7/3/2007  9:47 AM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:

clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes... if we can't field a roster full of overpaid underachievers & guys that play no defense while being capped out til my grandchildren are born, what's the point in even being a Knicks fan?


It's not like most knowledgeable fans believed they would actually follow through with the financial flexibility talk but we did see that the franchise was 2 yrs away from it. If it was going to be sacrificed why is it for Zach Randolph? Most post since the trade are in favor of it, there is frequent rebuttal not to be worried about our future cap situation, and the poll showed Zach is favored. When fans are justifying Zach maintaining his 20/10 in New York vs Lee maintaining his double double play, you know something is wrong. We also might as well forget about Curry's rebounding improving on this team.


Here is the thing. When you saw we were 2 years away from cap space and were hearing Isiah talk about getting under the cap in 2 years and signing a free-agent, you bought it. You for an instant thought that Isiah was getting under the cap. It is not going to happen until you have a proven winner/GM in the front office. The rest are just going to play the make a splash game
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TrueBlue
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7/3/2007  10:03 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by TMS:

clearly any poster who rants & raves about cap space doesn't know what they're talking about... this is NY for God's sakes... if we can't field a roster full of overpaid underachievers & guys that play no defense while being capped out til my grandchildren are born, what's the point in even being a Knicks fan?


It's not like most knowledgeable fans believed they would actually follow through with the financial flexibility talk but we did see that the franchise was 2 yrs away from it. If it was going to be sacrificed why is it for Zach Randolph? Most post since the trade are in favor of it, there is frequent rebuttal not to be worried about our future cap situation, and the poll showed Zach is favored. When fans are justifying Zach maintaining his 20/10 in New York vs Lee maintaining his double double play, you know something is wrong. We also might as well forget about Curry's rebounding improving on this team.


Here is the thing. When you saw we were 2 years away from cap space and were hearing Isiah talk about getting under the cap in 2 years and signing a free-agent, you bought it. You for an instant thought that Isiah was getting under the cap. It is not going to happen until you have a proven winner/GM in the front office. The rest are just going to play the make a splash game


I didn't buy it what I did was thinking in my mind wow the team is close to having a chance at gaining a fiscal advantage while in the same breath I was goofing on the notion the whole time. Go back and look at some threads and conversations I had with Nixluva. The reason I'm irritated because he's a lip service GM, has no regard for the team's future whatsoever, and very predictable. I've so much as stated I knew he'd blow it I just can't ofr the life of me figure out why on Zach Randolph.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
Bippity10
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7/3/2007  10:21 AM
I agree with you trueblue. In a million years I would not go after Zach. But I'm not the GM. And I've learned from watching Isiah. When we were having these conversations about youth I said don't be surprised when Isiah starts trading our youth for more rehabilitation projects. I can't find the exact quote but this is pretty close. This is Isiah's trademark and it will not change. I just have to sit back and hope when he does this he at least goes after someone with real talent(which he did). And then sit back and hope that the "talent" is used differently than it has been in the past. Too win games.

Welcome to Isiah's tenure. This is the way it is. Just hope one day someone get's it right because this is the way we do things. If you've ever seen the movie about Isiah's mother you will realize that Isiah was a rehabilitation project that was fixed. This seems to be the root of everything he does.
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misterearl
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7/3/2007  2:28 PM
bipp - i think the Knicks are loaded up with more intruiging young talent than at anytime in the last two decades. The best will stay. The scrubs will get moved. I don't have a problem with upgrading the talent base, no matter the age. You need a blend of yoot and experience, that is unless you wanna be the young and silly Atlanta Hawks.

hold up

Isiah was a rehabilitation project?

rehabilitated from what exactly?

say what?

i thought he was a momma's boy who was fortunate to be over-protected from the mean streets of chicago

but what do I know?
once a knick always a knick
sebstar
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7/3/2007  3:37 PM
This thread = Exhibit A on why Knick fans cant stomach a rebuilding process.

Laugh @ a few losing seasons equaling a fan base of no expectations. Spoiled.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Overall We're A Fan Base That Has No Standards

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