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Marbury isn't even top 10 at his position anymore
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MS
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5/29/2007  9:16 AM
After watching the playoffs and seeing guards dominate, takeover and deliver victories it's becoming increasingly clear that Marbury's random flashes are close to running out when it comes to the elite guards in the league.....

1. Nash
2. Kidd
3. Deron
4. Paul
5. Billups
6. Davis
7. Parker
8. Miller
9. Ford/Hinrich/Felton

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NYKniCksFan87
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5/29/2007  9:19 AM
way to early to put deron and paul over billups...i would take billups over kidd as well
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Solace
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5/29/2007  9:23 AM
I don't agree with the order of the list, but overall, yes... Marbury isn't a top 10 PG. He hasn't been a top 10 PG since before Larry Brown was here. That's two full seasons.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Anji
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5/29/2007  9:33 AM
I don't think Marbury is even top 70 in theleague any more.....
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EnySpree
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5/29/2007  9:55 AM
How many more ways can we breakdown steph?

Steph doesn't dominate the ball anymore. When steph was dominating the ball he was good for 20 and 8. He has changed his game for isiah. we all have witnessed this. The guy still can play this game. He is older and a step slower. All fact. He's not done yet. He still has some good years left in him.

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MS
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5/29/2007  10:12 AM
Marbury, Frye, Nate for the number 3 and josh childress, or even the 11 for that matter, we need to start dumping guys asap....if we need to throw in the 23 fine who cares.....

Look for Horford, Brandon Wright, Brewer......

The Hawks might take the deal in all honesty, no a full time commitment and they get two young players and a draft selection, become relevant for a little while and can mature

Marbury, Johnson, Smith, Williams, Frye

Crawford, Collins, Balkman, Horford, Curry
TrueBlue
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5/29/2007  10:14 AM
Posted by Anji:

I don't think Marbury is even top 70 in theleague any more.....


We did a poll on realgm about 2yrs ago and Marbury sure nough didn't crack Top 70. He was somewhere around 80.
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nixluva
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5/29/2007  11:04 AM
As usual this is all PURE CRAP!!! You guys are just freakin amazing. You just watched the guy play his ass off on bad wheels and teams STILL couldn't stop him. He's not done yet and like EnySpree said, he's been purposely holding back his own game to try and fit more into the team concept. Besides why is it right to kick dirt on him at this time? It's not really about him anymore. We're not looking for him to dominate games like he used to. We only need him to provide scoring punch when it's needed and he eventually found the right balance and was doing that this year. That is before the injuries.

What some of you aren't realizing is that If this team made it to the playoffs and we needed an explosion from Steph he would be able to provide that. Next season he'll likely be able to get more rest now that we have Mardy coming along. Then we can save him for the playoffs. It's a good situation having Steph and his considerable talent at this point. He can last a lot longer if we don't have to wear him out and we won't playing him the way we did most of this year. Steph isn't a problem for this team, he can help us when we need that higher level in a playoff situation.
arkrud
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5/29/2007  11:17 AM
Nobody is saying that Steph is bad player.
He is good NBA player and there are a lot of good players in NBA - this is the top bbal league in the world and each guy is one of the million.
But it is fare to compare between these guys.
The most important criteria for comparison is the success of teams the players was played for. And Steph is in pretty bad position. Yes - this can be bad luck... but to be fair it's more to do with Steph personality and style of the game.
His game based on individual performance and is not oriented to make other players and team better.
He forced to change his game lately to extend his carrier but he can only do as much to break long time habits.
Another problem is his limited IQ as a player and a as man in general which hurts so much at point guard position. He is not dumb but he is not intelligent enough to lead the team and make right decisions on the court, and for this matter to listen to coaching stuff.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
MS
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5/29/2007  11:19 AM
Save him for the playoffs, your amazing.....

We are not better than the Hawks right now and you think we are making it the playoffs. They add the 3 and 11th selection and are already better at 3 positions and have cap room.

The Bucks, Bobcats, etc. How are we saving a guy for the playoffs. We don't have one team in the lottery that you can say wow the knicks are much better than them in the eastern conference.....

Philly is getting added depth and we had trouble against them all season long......

We are lucky to finish third in the division......
martin
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5/29/2007  11:20 AM
Posted by nixluva:

As usual this is all PURE CRAP!!! You guys are just freakin amazing. You just watched the guy play his ass off on bad wheels and teams STILL couldn't stop him. He's not done yet and like EnySpree said, he's been purposely holding back his own game to try and fit more into the team concept. Besides why is it right to kick dirt on him at this time? It's not really about him anymore. We're not looking for him to dominate games like he used to. We only need him to provide scoring punch when it's needed and he eventually found the right balance and was doing that this year. That is before the injuries.

What some of you aren't realizing is that If this team made it to the playoffs and we needed an explosion from Steph he would be able to provide that. Next season he'll likely be able to get more rest now that we have Mardy coming along. Then we can save him for the playoffs. It's a good situation having Steph and his considerable talent at this point. He can last a lot longer if we don't have to wear him out and we won't playing him the way we did most of this year. Steph isn't a problem for this team, he can help us when we need that higher level in a playoff situation.

Steph has never been able to balance running a team and getting his own. Ever. He can still help the team.
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PresIke
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5/29/2007  11:47 AM
So, when Marbury adjusts his game to improve and quiet his critics he now earns criticism for doing just that? You wouldn't care to consider the possibility that he didn't play the same way because Isiah and Brown tried to instill in his mind that he doesn't need to dominate as a scorer all of the time with Curry now, would you?

The phrase "random flashes" is a significant misrepresentation of what became apparent as the season progressed in terms of why Marbury didn't play like that all of the time. It wasn't like Marbury didn't dominate and take over Knick games when he could and was needed to. Did you see the Dallas game late in the season or the Seattle, ATL or Golden State games all of which were close? What about the finish in the Utah game at MSG? Dude was killing it, (scored very close to or over 30 and 40 points in each of those) and it was mostly when he was not badly injured and Curry wasn't having as good a game that Marbury usually tried to step up.

Your list includes Andre Miller (?) as higher than Steph...I'm sorry Andre Miller is a very good PG but he's not a takeover player, which is the criteria you are using to judge Steph. It's hard to come across as objective when you selectively use the means identified for passing judgement. In fact, Nash gets criticized for not taking over games either, and I'd say Steph is probably better at Nash in that regard, although not as good as a passer or shooter. Also, wasn't Hinrich getting owned in the Detroit series? Ford can't shoot a lick and is not as good a scorer. Felton is just not a polished player yet by any means.

Those in the top 7 deserve to be in their based on your criteria, although I have some issues with the order, but Marbury would likely get slated at at least #8, in my view.

I think one important note about the top PGs that you list, with a few exceptions, is that they are already surrounded by tremendous talent. Parker has Duncan and Ginobli; Nash has Amare and Marion and a crapload of shooters to compliment his game; Deron now has a rising Boozer and Okur and Kerilenko; Billups a very very strong supporting cast, Kidd has/had Carter/K-Mart & Jefferson; etc. I'm not saying these PGs don't deserve credit for making their teams' better, and Marbury did have his share of talent earlier in his career, but now that he is more mature, what would it be like to have he with 1 or 2 all-stars and a stronger supporting cast. Curry is about there, but he's not on the level of most of the other 2nd players mentioned yet, and other players on the team are not consistent enough now, or not developed yet to see what the team is capable of with a more mature Marbury. Put Marbury on a team with a truly developed go-to player (maybe it will be Curry next season) and another lethal shooter, and a strong supporting cast, and I think the Knicks could be pretty darn good, and would hopefully make some change their minds about Steph....or maybe not.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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5/29/2007  11:51 AM
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:

As usual this is all PURE CRAP!!! You guys are just freakin amazing. You just watched the guy play his ass off on bad wheels and teams STILL couldn't stop him. He's not done yet and like EnySpree said, he's been purposely holding back his own game to try and fit more into the team concept. Besides why is it right to kick dirt on him at this time? It's not really about him anymore. We're not looking for him to dominate games like he used to. We only need him to provide scoring punch when it's needed and he eventually found the right balance and was doing that this year. That is before the injuries.

What some of you aren't realizing is that If this team made it to the playoffs and we needed an explosion from Steph he would be able to provide that. Next season he'll likely be able to get more rest now that we have Mardy coming along. Then we can save him for the playoffs. It's a good situation having Steph and his considerable talent at this point. He can last a lot longer if we don't have to wear him out and we won't playing him the way we did most of this year. Steph isn't a problem for this team, he can help us when we need that higher level in a playoff situation.

Steph has never been able to balance running a team and getting his own. Ever. He can still help the team.

If this is the case then how did the Knicks win any games when he wasn't trying to be the scorer if Curry is so overrated (according to a lot of the anti-Isiah Knick folk on this forum)? How did they have a winning record over the course of much of the season after a bad start, until the injuries disrupted the teams play later in the year? I think this statement is one of those cliches about Marbury that swirls around the media and fans but is not as connected to reality as it might have been 2 or 3 years ago.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Nalod
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5/29/2007  11:51 AM
MovementBury is really a 2 guard and we should not compare him to one that runs a team.
PresIke
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5/29/2007  11:58 AM
A 2 guard that averages 8 assists a game over his career? Enough with the Larry Brown rhetoric....

Now, Marbury would benefit from another playmaker on the court with him because of his ability to score, or a more developed post playing Curry (or someone else...Jermaine O'Neal?). Tony Parker doesn't exactly rack up the assists, but he's a better playmaker than Steph? No, it's because their offense revolves around Duncan's dominance in the post. PG's work and play differently with different systems. Kidd and Nash are PG's for running teams, Billups and Parker, are PG's more suited for half court teams.

That being said, Marbury should work on his post/entry passing. He's good at creating off the dribble in a half court game, but he never had a post player to get used to in his entire career until Curry. KG was not that developed when they were matched together, I don't think, so it's a learning experience for him.

[Edited by - PresIke on 05-29-2007 11:58 AM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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5/29/2007  12:02 PM
btw, I was one who thought that it might have been time to move Steph after last season, but after seeing him play this year I changed my mind as the season progressed, so I'm not just someone who loves and supports every player Isiah brings in.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
mikesknicks
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5/29/2007  12:04 PM
(You) Knick fans are just plain banwagon riders plain and simple. After one or two playoff series Deron williams is better then Steph???? and why is it that when Billups scores, Williams scores, and Davis scores it's great but steph scores he really a 2 guard??
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franco12
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5/29/2007  12:07 PM
Posted by nixluva:

As usual this is all PURE CRAP!!! You guys are just freakin amazing. You just watched the guy play his ass off on bad wheels and teams STILL couldn't stop him. He's not done yet and like EnySpree said, he's been purposely holding back his own game to try and fit more into the team concept. Besides why is it right to kick dirt on him at this time? It's not really about him anymore. We're not looking for him to dominate games like he used to. We only need him to provide scoring punch when it's needed and he eventually found the right balance and was doing that this year. That is before the injuries.

What some of you aren't realizing is that If this team made it to the playoffs and we needed an explosion from Steph he would be able to provide that. Next season he'll likely be able to get more rest now that we have Mardy coming along. Then we can save him for the playoffs. It's a good situation having Steph and his considerable talent at this point. He can last a lot longer if we don't have to wear him out and we won't playing him the way we did most of this year. Steph isn't a problem for this team, he can help us when we need that higher level in a playoff situation.

We must have been watching different games because Marbury struggled to get into the lane like he has in the past.

And this is a load of garbage saying Marbury is sacrificing his game for the betterment of the team- all the other guys listed do that- and they still get their points, but they also get assists, steals, make an impact by being a positive player.

Look- Marbury played great team ball this year.

But- bottom line is this- his production and value on the court is grossly mismatched to his salary.

And he is still costing us a draft pick that will be unprotected in 2010.

I'm not sure his value is ever going to be higher around the league and if you could trade him for a decent package, I think you do it.

He isn't getting younger, faster and his shot from outside isn't getting better.

MS
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5/29/2007  12:20 PM
Lets not make the knicks supporting cast out to be that weak......

Curry is supposed to be this great player, and on offense he is efficient as is david lee, so you have two starting positions that are as efficient as any in the league, look it up before you say anything.

Q is a pretty good three not, great, and everyone around here thinks crawford is pretty darn good, so lets not act like he the cast is awful....its not wonderful by any means....

But if you put the top 7 on this list on the knicks are we a playoff team? I would say there is a pretty good chance.

1. Nash-----YES
2. Kidd-----YES
3. Deron----YES
4. Paul-----YES
5. Billups--YES
6. Davis----Most likely always get his teams there
7. Parker---Yes
8. Miller---Sixers played .500 with who on their team other than Iggy when he got there
9. Ford/Hinrich/Felton
-Ford gets everyone involved, he can't shoot but you can bet everyone is getting easy shots, hinrich is a defensive upgrade, Felton no

If you don't think Deron is better than Steph your on ****ing drugs he the best player on the floor in this series and is outplaying Duncan, and has dominated in the playoffs. When did Steph ever do that....Mention Okur and AK47 as great supporting players in the playoffs give me a break....

Deron vs. Duncan
29.5pts 9.0ass 4.4rbs 1.6stls 54%fg 47%3fg
22.0pts 3.3ass 10.3rbs 3.5blks 59%

Playoffs
AK47 9.4pts 5.3rbs 2.6ass 2.4blks
Okur 12.pts 8.1tbs 1.0blks 38% 32%3fg
Fish 10pts 2.7ass 1.7rbs 41%fg



PresIke
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5/29/2007  12:20 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by nixluva:

As usual this is all PURE CRAP!!! You guys are just freakin amazing. You just watched the guy play his ass off on bad wheels and teams STILL couldn't stop him. He's not done yet and like EnySpree said, he's been purposely holding back his own game to try and fit more into the team concept. Besides why is it right to kick dirt on him at this time? It's not really about him anymore. We're not looking for him to dominate games like he used to. We only need him to provide scoring punch when it's needed and he eventually found the right balance and was doing that this year. That is before the injuries.

What some of you aren't realizing is that If this team made it to the playoffs and we needed an explosion from Steph he would be able to provide that. Next season he'll likely be able to get more rest now that we have Mardy coming along. Then we can save him for the playoffs. It's a good situation having Steph and his considerable talent at this point. He can last a lot longer if we don't have to wear him out and we won't playing him the way we did most of this year. Steph isn't a problem for this team, he can help us when we need that higher level in a playoff situation.

We must have been watching different games because Marbury struggled to get into the lane like he has in the past.

And this is a load of garbage saying Marbury is sacrificing his game for the betterment of the team- all the other guys listed do that- and they still get their points, but they also get assists, steals, make an impact by being a positive player.

Look- Marbury played great team ball this year.

But- bottom line is this- his production and value on the court is grossly mismatched to his salary.

And he is still costing us a draft pick that will be unprotected in 2010.

I'm not sure his value is ever going to be higher around the league and if you could trade him for a decent package, I think you do it.

He isn't getting younger, faster and his shot from outside isn't getting better.

He struggled to get in the lane? When? Maybe when he was injured, which Steph was dealing with a lot last year. And how do you know that he didn't sacrifice his game at all? I think it's pretty obvious that he has since Brown came, but felt better with it under Isiah as he convinced him that we needed to go through Curry. Anyway, you act like Marbury didn't score at all last year, but that was earlier in the season when the team was struggling to find it's identity with Curry as the main guy. That may be a reason the team struggled early on because Steph only scored over 20 points once in the first month and a half, but as the season went on he had far more impact as a scorer, including 8 games where he scored over 30 points and 3 of those over 40 points. He also had stretches of 6 out of 7 games in a row scoring over 20 in January (the teams record was 4-3) and over 20 in 8 out of 9 games, or 9 out of 11 during one stretch (where the Knicks went 5-4 and 6-5) where he had 3 games in a row over 30 points one of which was over 40.

This is the sign of a guy who can't get in the lane or score? Sure, if you want to ignore facts and believe that he's done, then by all means, fire away.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Marbury isn't even top 10 at his position anymore

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