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If You Think It's Time For Significant Change, Can the Knicks Play Without A Center?
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misterearl
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4/24/2007  10:23 AM
Judging from all the anti-Eddy Curry sentiment, it would seem the idea of building a team to cohere around his game is a point of contention.

With that said - and the draft right around the corner...

Why not adhere to Isiah's philosophy of guys who can play multiple positions, re-mold the Knicks in the image of Golden State or Phoenix and just run the pants off teams in the East?

Let's just consider for a moment...

If Curry were excluded from the equation, could the Knicks build around David Lee (Mr Double-Double), Mardy Collins (Mr Almost Triple-Double - with an infusion of Clyde confidence and head fakes) Renaldo Balkman ...

rebuild Channing Frye's confidence and give him a flexible spot on the floor...

...then add the best ball-handling 6'9+ forward in the draft to run with Lee (I still dig Avis Wyatt of VA State)

...groom Randolph Morris as a rebounding forward with a cute bank shot...



... could the Knicks go without a center?

once a knick always a knick
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kam77
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4/24/2007  10:24 AM
Hey Earl,

You check out Elba yet? Rembee is back.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
misterearl
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4/24/2007  10:26 AM
rembee is back? ... hotdamn!

what the heck is elba?
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BRIGGS
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4/24/2007  10:37 AM
We don't have the outside arsenal to go without Curry. I think it's better to continue on course--find a big 2 guard who can shoot the ball and find a guy who is a defensive interior deterant. Phoenix and GS have guys all over their teams who can shoot--that is why they have so many lanes open to the basket. We don't have that and the guys who do shoot it for 3 have poor %.
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kam77
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4/24/2007  10:39 AM
First off: The run and gun game hasn't elevated a team into the Finals lately. Maybe PHX will finally do it this year, but I don't see another Steve Nash around leading us.

Secondly, earl, Elba is the Exiles of the NYTimes forum. You'll see a link to it if you go back to the Times. Its the final post.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
BlueSeats
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4/24/2007  11:14 AM
I don't happen to think our guys are particularly suited to the uptempo style. They're merely more athletic than fundamentally skilled, but it doesn't mean they are really suited to the uptempo style.

I'd say on the whole team, Balkman, Jeffries and perhaps Nate are the guys who's games are better in an open court style. Most others would be about the same either way.

That being said, I do think we need to try to pick up the pace and generate some movement, but we're not gonna outrun running teams.

We can be a mediocre halfcourt team, or a mediocre running team. Running is probably better for fan excitement, but it's a lot harder on those million dollar legs out there.
misterearl
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4/24/2007  12:17 PM
kam77 - a thousand thanks for the homeless link.

>>I don't happen to think our guys are particularly suited to the uptempo style. They're merely more athletic than fundamentally skilled

BlueSeats - don't believe the customary knocks on Knicks. Lee, Collins and Frye are skilled in basketball fundamentals as all are the products of solid high-level (winning) programs with excellent coaches. I would counter your assesment and submit that Billy Donovan, the maniacal John Chaney and Lute Olsen taught some important lessons on hoops 101.

Based on his rookie season, Renaldo Balkman has also mastered enough of the NBA fundamentals of rebounding angles and passing (and driving) lanes to improve in two more years of experience. He excels on the run and just might grow even more in an uptempo shiftline.

Forget Nate and Jeffries for a moment.

Lee, Frye, Collins and Balkman are my proposed UC (Uptempo Core). The building block solution is not so simple as simply adding a shooting guard...

OR

... do you go for the innovative and take the next (insert your best choice here) revoutionary player at a frontcourt position/ ie Shawn Marion?

[Edited by - misterearl on 04-24-2007 12:18 PM]
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MS
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4/24/2007  12:30 PM
I agree with everyone except Frye, his fundamentals are disgraceful, he has no idea how to use his body to gain position and constantly gets blocked because he leads with the ball instead of his body. He doesn't pass well and doesn't really have any moves.
misterearl
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4/24/2007  12:33 PM
kam77 - I'm not trying to get to The Finals in one fell swoop.

If playing to the skill-set of the Knicks Yoots moved our beloved franchise to the second round of the playoffs I, for one, would smile.

Small Steps
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martin
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4/24/2007  12:42 PM
Posted by misterearl:

kam77 - a thousand thanks for the homeless link.

>>I don't happen to think our guys are particularly suited to the uptempo style. They're merely more athletic than fundamentally skilled

BlueSeats - don't believe the customary knocks on Knicks. Lee, Collins and Frye are skilled in basketball fundamentals as all are the products of solid high-level (winning) programs with excellent coaches. I would counter your assesment and submit that Billy Donovan, the maniacal John Chaney and Lute Olsen taught some important lessons on hoops 101.

Based on his rookie season, Renaldo Balkman has also mastered enough of the NBA fundamentals of rebounding angles and passing (and driving) lanes to improve in two more years of experience. He excels on the run and just might grow even more in an uptempo shiftline.

Forget Nate and Jeffries for a moment.

Lee, Frye, Collins and Balkman are my proposed UC (Uptempo Core). The building block solution is not so simple as simply adding a shooting guard...

OR

... do you go for the innovative and take the next (insert your best choice here) revoutionary player at a frontcourt position/ ie Shawn Marion?

[Edited by - misterearl on 04-24-2007 12:18 PM]

it's unfortunate that the Knicks are caught in a win-now mode for the past season (perhaps so that Isiah could keep his job). I think they started the season with the idea of moving towards up tempo but are shackled with Fran, Marb and Curry, who are all half-court players. I would add Crawford to the list of uptempo guys but there is not a PG decision-maker there.
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misterearl
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4/24/2007  12:47 PM
The misterearl Jive Five Fluid Forwards In 2007 Draft

Avis Wyatt 6'10

Tiago Splitter 6'11

Josh McRoberts 6'10

Jason Smith 7'0

Dominic McGuire 6'8

Unconditional Gurantee: NYK selects one of these guys
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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4/24/2007  12:53 PM
Martin - whasamatta, you don't like Mardy Collins?

Jamal Crawford can also play uptempo.

He has an uncanny intuitive feel for the game which is stunted by playing in varying roles and with different combinations over the past two season due to Larry Brown's arbitrary style and the rash of collective injuries. But don't sleep on the young man's courage, intelligence and cool in the clutch.

Jamal may hoist 30 footers with 20 seconds remaining on the shot clock but some of those suckers actually drop.
once a knick always a knick
BlueSeats
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4/24/2007  12:59 PM
Posted by misterearl:

>>I don't happen to think our guys are particularly suited to the uptempo style. They're merely more athletic than fundamentally skilled

BlueSeats - don't believe the customary knocks on Knicks. Lee, Collins and Frye are skilled in basketball fundamentals as all are the products of solid high-level (winning) programs with excellent coaches. I would counter your assesment and submit that Billy Donovan, the maniacal John Chaney and Lute Olsen taught some important lessons on hoops 101.

Based on his rookie season, Renaldo Balkman has also mastered enough of the NBA fundamentals of rebounding angles and passing (and driving) lanes to improve in two more years of experience. He excels on the run and just might grow even more in an uptempo shiftline.

Forget Nate and Jeffries for a moment.

Lee, Frye, Collins and Balkman are my proposed UC (Uptempo Core). The building block solution is not so simple as simply adding a shooting guard...

OR

... do you go for the innovative and take the next (insert your best choice here) revoutionary player at a frontcourt position/ ie Shawn Marion?


Lets for the moment assume I accept your proposition that Lee, Frye, Collins and Balkman are fundamentally sound players. (I think "well coached" might be the better term, as rarely are poor shooters (Collins, Lee, Balk) and weak defenders (Lee, Frye) considered fundamentally sound, but we can put that aside for now.)

That's only 4 players of our 15 man roster. And of them which are better suited to a running game than a halfcourt game?
bigbeast
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4/24/2007  1:09 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by misterearl:

kam77 - a thousand thanks for the homeless link.

>>I don't happen to think our guys are particularly suited to the uptempo style. They're merely more athletic than fundamentally skilled

BlueSeats - don't believe the customary knocks on Knicks. Lee, Collins and Frye are skilled in basketball fundamentals as all are the products of solid high-level (winning) programs with excellent coaches. I would counter your assesment and submit that Billy Donovan, the maniacal John Chaney and Lute Olsen taught some important lessons on hoops 101.

Based on his rookie season, Renaldo Balkman has also mastered enough of the NBA fundamentals of rebounding angles and passing (and driving) lanes to improve in two more years of experience. He excels on the run and just might grow even more in an uptempo shiftline.

Forget Nate and Jeffries for a moment.

Lee, Frye, Collins and Balkman are my proposed UC (Uptempo Core). The building block solution is not so simple as simply adding a shooting guard...

OR

... do you go for the innovative and take the next (insert your best choice here) revoutionary player at a frontcourt position/ ie Shawn Marion?

[Edited by - misterearl on 04-24-2007 12:18 PM]

it's unfortunate that the Knicks are caught in a win-now mode for the past season (perhaps so that Isiah could keep his job). I think they started the season with the idea of moving towards up tempo but are shackled with Fran, Marb and Curry, who are all half-court players. I would add Crawford to the list of uptempo guys but there is not a PG decision-maker there.


Curry isn't a bad player to be shackled with especially during the playoffs when things slow down.
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
misterearl
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4/24/2007  1:13 PM
BlueSeats - let's not get "fundamentals" confused with skill-sets here.

None of the rookie and second-year Knicks I'm forwarding the cause of are finished products. There is WAY more "in process" to all their games. Despite their flaws, (which all players have to varying degrees) the idea is which tempo would suit these New Knicks Yoots?

For sake of discussion, let's agree that an all-out running game (Celtics/Suns fast break off made baskets) varies slilghtly from an uptempo style of pushing the ball upcourt with deliberate combination of designed and intuitive plays conceived to enhance ball movement and open looks.

The championship Knicks were not track stars but the ball moved from point to point with purpose and cohesion.

Nor am I suggesting the Knicks Yoots are ready to become a 440 relay team, but they DO have the potential to pick up the pace a notch and dictate the flow... and in the process REDUCE the dreaded turnovers which hurt the team more than anything.

If it's only two guys as a core... so be it. I feel good about these four and WITH Jamal that makes five. Add another solid draft pick ... that makes six.


You gotta start someplace.
once a knick always a knick
misterearl
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4/24/2007  1:15 PM
... add Randolph Morris, the other first round selection, that makes seven.
once a knick always a knick
BlueSeats
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4/24/2007  1:37 PM
Posted by misterearl:

BlueSeats - let's not get "fundamentals" confused with skill-sets here.

None of the rookie and second-year Knicks I'm forwarding the cause of are finished products. There is WAY more "in process" to all their games. Despite their flaws, (which all players have to varying degrees) the idea is which tempo would suit these New Knicks Yoots?

For sake of discussion, let's agree that an all-out running game (Celtics/Suns fast break off made baskets) varies slilghtly from an uptempo style of pushing the ball upcourt with deliberate combination of designed and intuitive plays conceived to enhance ball movement and open looks.

The championship Knicks were not track stars but the ball moved from point to point with purpose and cohesion.

Nor am I suggesting the Knicks Yoots are ready to become a 440 relay team, but they DO have the potential to pick up the pace a notch and dictate the flow... and in the process REDUCE the dreaded turnovers which hurt the team more than anything.

If it's only two guys as a core... so be it. I feel good about these four and WITH Jamal that makes five. Add another solid draft pick ... that makes six.


You gotta start someplace.


misterearl, I'm just a bit confused where you are going with all this. Are you saying YOU'RE ready to give up on Marbury/Curry because you'd like us to pick up the tempo? Are you saying of we did you think we'd win more games?

I'm not trying to box you in a corner, just trying to get where you're coming from.
BlueSeats
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4/24/2007  1:48 PM
If what you are suggesting is that if we were to somehow jettison Marbury and Curry and go strictly with the kids we would then run Isiah's 'quick' offense with Frye in the post, a la Indy and Jermaine.

To that I'd agree. And might we be better for doing so? Perhaps. Yes, and as a hater I'm not ashamed to say it, we just might be better without our two best players.
K22
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4/24/2007  2:04 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

To that I'd agree. And might we be better for doing so? Perhaps. Yes, and as a hater I'm not ashamed to say it, we just might be better without our two best players.

Maybe so, but just b/c that model worked for the Sixers doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for us.


[Edited by - K22 on 04-24-2007 2:15 PM]
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
bobs3304
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4/24/2007  3:41 PM
I think the team would gel much better minus Curry, but I think in the long run we might have more success with Curry and someone else (Ray Ray?) than as a poor man's GSW.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
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