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How do you pass to a double/tripple teamed player?
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Bonn1997
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3/15/2007  11:48 AM
I don't understand how people think Marbury should be getting the ball into Curry when the defense is doubling him before he passes the ball. I don't see any PGs feeding post players who are double teamed. Isn't the real problem that at any given time we have 3 or 4 players on the court who can't hit jump shots and can't make the opponent pay for doubling Eddy? I don't see how any PG could feed a low-post player under these circumstances.
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  12:42 PM
Curry is not double teamed until he gets the ball. If you hold the ball in your hands like Francis does. By the time you pass to Curry it's too late. But if you snap the ball around the perimeter and feed the post the moment he comes off a screen you can get him in position to score.

On the flip side the big man should be able to make the other team pay for focusing so much attention on him by passing out of the double teams. Because Eddy skipped college and has been coddled his entire career he is being forced to learn it now.
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bigbeast
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3/15/2007  12:46 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Curry is not double teamed until he gets the ball. If you hold the ball in your hands like Francis does. By the time you pass to Curry it's too late. But if you snap the ball around the perimeter and feed the post the moment he comes off a screen you can get him in position to score.

On the flip side the big man should be able to make the other team pay for focusing so much attention on him by passing out of the double teams. Because Eddy skipped college and has been coddled his entire career he is being forced to learn it now.

Very much on point......its more than just college though. He's been under Skiles tutuledge for about 3-4 yrs so you have to wonder what Skiles was or wasn't doing. Also, I don't think Curry has been consistantly doubled until this yr.
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Queeniepop
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3/15/2007  12:48 PM
Frank Isola's suggestion: "One consideration may be to get Curry the ball earlier in the shot clock, so he can shoot or re-post."

In other words, dont dribble the damn shot clock down or just jack up a shot. You have to be patient.

We like shooting 3's alot lately...since Jamal "the chucker" is out...we are taking 5 more three's a game and 9 less 2FGA per game.
Allanfan20
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3/15/2007  12:57 PM
My suggestion, if the guy is being double teamed, don't pass him the ball. Making THAT decision is fundamental and simple and common sense. If the post up player is being doubled before he even has the ball, you find the open man, which should be relatively easy if the open man is moving to the right spot.

With that being said, this is coming from a guy who enjoys passing, playing team ball and passing into the post. It's a very difficult skill to pass in the post. It's where arms and bodies and cutters are flaring the most and you have to understand where your man wants to recieve the ball, and you have to have the skill to be able to accurately hit him at the exact right spot at the right time. It may be fundamental, but it doesn't make it easy. Marbury and Francis never had to play in this style of player for much time before. It's not in their skillset. This is why I just say it's important to completely rebuild this backcourt, b/c of that. Has nothing to do with disliking them.

Charlie and Allan and Childs would have LOVED playing with Curry, if he learned to pass out of doubles.
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TheGame
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3/15/2007  1:02 PM
Last night, Curry was not doubled until he got the ball. Our players should have been able to read the defense and make Toronto pay for doubling. I could see if we got open shots and were just missing them. But we could not even get open shots out of the doubleteams. Every practice from now on needs to focus on beating the double teams and the zone defenses that teams use every game to stop Curry. If Curry is the focal point, then you need to pound into everyone else what they need to do when Curry is doubleteamed.
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  1:02 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bippity10:

Curry is not double teamed until he gets the ball. If you hold the ball in your hands like Francis does. By the time you pass to Curry it's too late. But if you snap the ball around the perimeter and feed the post the moment he comes off a screen you can get him in position to score.

On the flip side the big man should be able to make the other team pay for focusing so much attention on him by passing out of the double teams. Because Eddy skipped college and has been coddled his entire career he is being forced to learn it now.

Very much on point......its more than just college though. He's been under Skiles tutuledge for about 3-4 yrs so you have to wonder what Skiles was or wasn't doing. Also, I don't think Curry has been consistantly doubled until this yr.

I went to a JVG clinic a few years back. Someone asked him what he felt aobut the influx of young players. He said most NBA coaches don't like it because they just don't have enough time to teach them the basic fundamentals of the game. The other problem is that the way these guys have been playing has worked for them all their lives. They didn't get a chance to play against the better players in college and learn that they have to adjust their games and work at the fundamentals. Then they get to the pros and are handed millions and it's sometimes hard for them to think that you know what you are talking about. He said most NBA "disciplinarians" will ignore them and just hope that enough personal failure convinces the player to work on the fundamentals on their own.
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  1:08 PM
there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.
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NYKBocker
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3/15/2007  1:41 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.


Absolutely, Curry was open in those instances. Marbury and Steve just keep missing him.

I think our best entry passer right now is Mardy Collins since Jamal is out for the season. DLee was also an exceptional passer that is greatly missed by Eddy.
nyk4ever
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3/15/2007  1:50 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Bippity10:

Curry is not double teamed until he gets the ball. If you hold the ball in your hands like Francis does. By the time you pass to Curry it's too late. But if you snap the ball around the perimeter and feed the post the moment he comes off a screen you can get him in position to score.

On the flip side the big man should be able to make the other team pay for focusing so much attention on him by passing out of the double teams. Because Eddy skipped college and has been coddled his entire career he is being forced to learn it now.

Very much on point......its more than just college though. He's been under Skiles tutuledge for about 3-4 yrs so you have to wonder what Skiles was or wasn't doing. Also, I don't think Curry has been consistantly doubled until this yr.

I went to a JVG clinic a few years back. Someone asked him what he felt aobut the influx of young players. He said most NBA coaches don't like it because they just don't have enough time to teach them the basic fundamentals of the game. The other problem is that the way these guys have been playing has worked for them all their lives. They didn't get a chance to play against the better players in college and learn that they have to adjust their games and work at the fundamentals. Then they get to the pros and are handed millions and it's sometimes hard for them to think that you know what you are talking about. He said most NBA "disciplinarians" will ignore them and just hope that enough personal failure convinces the player to work on the fundamentals on their own.

That's pretty interesting, Bip.

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Masterplan
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3/15/2007  2:05 PM
Posted by NYKBocker:
Posted by Bippity10:

there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.


Absolutely, Curry was open in those instances. Marbury and Steve just keep missing him.

I think our best entry passer right now is Mardy Collins since Jamal is out for the season. DLee was also an exceptional passer that is greatly missed by Eddy.

our non-guards hit eddy on those flashes pretty well- frye i've noticed do that a bunch of times, Q and malik too. but they only get the ball on those swings when marbury and francis run out of ideas...
martin
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3/15/2007  2:34 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.

you know you want to say it: Marb and Fran SUCK as PGs!!
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highfivesucka
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3/15/2007  3:03 PM
there's a play we used to run with Q/craw, lee and curry with Q or craw in the corner, lee @ the top of the key and curry down low. theyd swing the vball to q/craw, pass it to lee, who would touch pass it to curry before the defense could decide to double up or sdtat home w/ the shooters. curry eould get like 2-3 buckets a game ogff of thaat, and it was good vs zone spme times too.

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kam77
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3/15/2007  3:34 PM
Two questions for the forum...

1. If Marbury can become more dedicated to defense and being team-oriented, as we've witnessed this year, can his floor game as a PG improve through the same efforts he used to UP the other areas of his game, or are we truly stuck with a dynamite SG as our PG - who won't have the ability to intuitively get the rock to the guys in the right place and time?

2. If we swap Jamal to PG and Steph to SG - with a healthy team is that enough to win 45 games next year and reach the next level as a team; Respectibility?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bippity10
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3/15/2007  4:38 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by Bippity10:

there are several instances in last nights game where Curry flashed to the middle on the swing of the ball and was single covered with his man pinned on his back 3 feet from the hoop. If you get him the ball in this position noone is going to be able to get their in time to double. We missed him in these situations. If you continually miss big guys in these situations they are eventually going to stop working.

Same goes for jumpshooters that shoot off screens. Guys like Reggie Miller fight all game long to get open. They normally have the best defender shadowing them and focusing only on making sure they are never open. You need a PG that can get them the ball right away. A PG that has perfected the art of having the ball in the air before you are open, knowing that you will be the first one to get it and can go right into your shooting movement as the defender trails you. If you don't have a PG that can get him the ball at that time, he is instead getting it a second late. In the big man situation he is now double teamed. In the Shooters situation he is now forced to play one on one ball with his defender if he wants to get a shot up.

Having a player on the floor that understands when to pass is enormous. That's why guys like Stevie that can get assists because they pass when they need a bail out are normally not as successful as guys like Nash and Mark Jackson and Stockton and Magic and Isiah that understood what I'm saying.

you know you want to say it: Marb and Fran SUCK as PGs!!

I'm going to give Marbs a pass because his being asked to pick up the slack for Jamal. Unfortunately when he is looking for his shot we don't really have someone to pick up the passing slack from Marbs. Marbs is not a great passer, he's not great at running the offense but he has done a solid job at doing it this year. It's just right now we need him to score and do the things he does best. I can't criticize the guy right now.

As for Stevie. I said this many times and have been blasted many times. He is a great player with talent galore. But in my mind is not more than a sixth man. Instead of being called the "franchise" and being handed the keys as a rookie he should have had to ride the bench and earn his time until he learns how to play 5 on 5 basketball isntead of 1 on 1. I don't care about his big scoring games. I don't care about his rebounding. I know he has huge games and wins for his team from time to time. It's all good. But he is so disruptive to the offense that I really just don't think you can win consistently with him as a major guy getting 35+ minutes. I think I hate his game more than any NBA "star" in the past 10 years and I would hate playing with him. If you are a jumpshooter or a big man, he is your death.
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Bippity10
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3/15/2007  4:43 PM
Posted by kam77:

Two questions for the forum...

1. If Marbury can become more dedicated to defense and being team-oriented, as we've witnessed this year, can his floor game as a PG improve through the same efforts he used to UP the other areas of his game, or are we truly stuck with a dynamite SG as our PG - who won't have the ability to intuitively get the rock to the guys in the right place and time?

2. If we swap Jamal to PG and Steph to SG - with a healthy team is that enough to win 45 games next year and reach the next level as a team; Respectibility?

I think what he improved on this year are the things he's always had talent for. He has always had incredible quickness and strenght. D should never have been a problem. He had games where he was the best defender on his team. He just refused to do it from game to game. The "haters" and his coaches got him to change. Being team oriented is the same. It's not a skill, it's a decision. He decided to do it. It's somehting that can be fixed over night.

Seeing the floor is a different story. It is a tough thing to learn. Most great passers are great passers in elementary school. It's instinctual. It's like being able to throw a 95 mile an hour fastball. You can work and improve your arm strenght but it takes a ton to get to that level. My guess is that after 10 years that is one area that Marbs can improve on but will never be great at. If we want to really improve in that area we need to focus beyond next year(can we for once stop building from year to year goddarmn it!!!!!!!!!) and find a PG that can run the offense and get the ball to Curry. When Curry is in his prime years, Marbs will be retiring or on his way out. Why are we so focused upon him?
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nyk4ever
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3/15/2007  4:48 PM
Posted by Bippity10:


I'm going to give Marbs a pass because his being asked to pick up the slack for Jamal. Unfortunately when he is looking for his shot we don't really have someone to pick up the passing slack from Marbs. Marbs is not a great passer, he's not great at running the offense but he has done a solid job at doing it this year. It's just right now we need him to score and do the things he does best. I can't criticize the guy right now.

I think this is point on. I'm not going to rag on Marbs right now for not passing, since he has to be the top dog scoring wise, but there in lies the problem: Marbury is our PG. If our PG is the one doing all the scoring, then who is setting everyone else up? You know Francis isn't doing this, the guy is just like Marbury, he's a scorer.

I think Mardy needs to play more and he needs to bring the ball up and get everyone involved when they aren't letting Steph do his thing.

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kam77
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3/15/2007  4:53 PM
Hard to argue with 31/9
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Bonn1997
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3/15/2007  4:59 PM
Posted by kam77:

Hard to argue with 31/9

I think it's gotta be extremely hard to play PG when at any given moment 3 of your teammates are non-scoring threats. I don't think this team would be doing better if you replaced Marbury with a "traditional" PG like Eric Snow.
kam77
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3/15/2007  5:03 PM
If Marbury were in Toronto, would they be as good? And what if we had Ford, would we be any better?
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
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